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  • "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit"

    No one can lose his salvation because "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit." The Holy Spirit is the root of the tree and the fruit of the tree can only come from the health of the root. If the root is healthy (the Holy Spirit is always healthy), the fruit will be good.

    But trees who have an unhealthy root will wither and die. Since every Christian claims to be born again, then those who think they can lose their salvation think they can bear fruit without looking at the root of the tree. Not so says Jesus. The root of the tree is what determines the health of the tree. But those who know they have the root of the indwelling Holy Spirit know that their fruit can only reflect their root. So since Jesus tells us that not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, we can know who these people are by their fruit.

  • #2
    Alternatively Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who are Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit who 'fall away' (lose their Salvation)
    or
    2 Peter 3:13 - 18 . . . .(:17)" be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position" (in Christ).

    Comment


    • #3
      Hebrews 6

      4 - For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
      5 - and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
      6 - and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
      7 - For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
      8 - but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

      Close to being cursed. Not cursed.

      A farmer who has a field that is filled with weeds will burn it off to destroy the roots of everything so it can be planted anew.

      To me, that is what these verses are talking about.

      Just my thoughts -
      V
      Last edited by Vhayes; Jun 15th 2008, 04:57 PM. Reason: typos
      I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
      - Mahatma Gandhi



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      • #4
        "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" unless the tree decides it can walk on its own without keeping its roots planted in the ground.
        Always give God credit first.

        "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
        -Sir Toby, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare

        James 1:19

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
          "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" unless the tree decides it can walk on its own without keeping its roots planted in the ground.
          And when has that ever happened in the world of horticulture?!?!

          You've been watching LOTR too much!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Frances View Post
            Alternatively Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who are Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit who 'fall away' (lose their Salvation)
            or
            2 Peter 3:13 - 18 . . . .(:17)" be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position" (in Christ).
            Sorry, but scripture doesn't contradict itself, so you are not interpreting those passages correctly. Once you realize that there are no contradictions in the bible, then those passages are talking to people who openly claim to be Christians yet have no root. Otherwise, you are claiming that either Jesus was talking about trees or he's wrong, and good trees can bear bad fruit. But since Jesus is never wrong, then it's you who are misinterpreting the bible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Joyfilled View Post
              Sorry, but scripture doesn't contradict itself, so you are not interpreting those passages correctly. Once you realize that there are no contradictions in the bible, then those passages are talking to people who openly claim to be Christians yet have no root. Otherwise, you are claiming that either Jesus was talking about trees or he's wrong, and good trees can bear bad fruit. But since Jesus is never wrong, then it's you who are misinterpreting the bible.
              Maybe you're wrong?

              Comment


              • #8
                Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)
                "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is nor you who supports the root, but the root that supports you.

                You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

                Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."



                Not making any statement, interpret for yourselves. However, whatever the case, it'd also be just fine to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."*



                -Casey





                *(Some of Philippians 2:12 in quotes)
                "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil 2:12-13)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                  Maybe you're wrong?
                  Since the bible is God's word, then he bible never contradicts itself because God is never wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sketch View Post
                    Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)
                    "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is nor you who supports the root, but the root that supports you.

                    You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

                    Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."



                    Not making any statement, interpret for yourselves. However, whatever the case, it'd also be just fine to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."*



                    -Casey





                    *(Some of Philippians 2:12 in quotes)
                    "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil 2:12-13)
                    And put that together with Philippians 1:4, "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion."

                    And 1 Corinthians 1:8, "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of the Lord."

                    So again, we have to put scripture together and we get; only those who are born again of the Holy Spirit can't be snatched out of Jesus's hand because God never abandons us. Also, one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith. And as 1 john 4:4 tells us, "the one who is in you is stronger than the one who is in the world.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joyfilled View Post
                      Since the bible is God's word, then he bible never contradicts itself because God is never wrong.
                      Err...
                      Maybe you're wrong... In how you're reading the Bible

                      I'm not trying to accuse you of anything; but I don't see why you should suggest Frances is wrong but not consider that you yourself may be wrong. Maybe you're both wrong?

                      Maybe I'm right? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe we're all wrong?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Don't we all miss the point? Why do Jesus say it in the first place and what would the meaning be?
                        I believe it's He's way of warning us. In the end of days their is going to be a lot of false profets, and one of the ways to know that their roots are bad is to look at their fruit.
                        So who do we trust? The people with good fruit... good fruit=good and sincere intensions, true faith and the work of the Holy Spirit.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                          Err...
                          Maybe you're wrong... In how you're reading the Bible

                          I'm not trying to accuse you of anything; but I don't see why you should suggest Frances is wrong but not consider that you yourself may be wrong. Maybe you're both wrong?

                          Maybe I'm right? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe we're all wrong?
                          Sorry, but all one needs is a basic understanding of word vocabulary and grammar to understand what that passage or any passage in the bible means. But what Satan does is try to re-define simple words like "is", "a", "cannot" "good" tree" in order to twist meanings into their opposite. I don't do that because Paul tells us not to quibble about words. If we do, we can re-write the bible to make it say anything that itching ear want to hear.

                          So as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval. " Those who have God's approval don't have to re-define simple words that we all learned in elementary school. Those who don't believe the bible, do have to try to re-define simple words like "is" because they don't like what the bible says. So if one doesn't understand the simple words in that passage, then he has no chance of understanding the spiritual truths underneath them. One cannot follow someone he doesn't believe or understand.

                          But according to your reasoning, then every denomination is right because they can change the bible to make it say anything he wants it to say; thus there would be no false teachers, which is of course, untrue. So all one has to do is believe the simple words in the bible instead of changing them around to make them say the opposite.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joyfilled View Post
                            No one can lose his salvation
                            I trust this will help you see God's truth concerning the doctrine of "Once in grace, always in grace"

                            I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
                            1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

                            Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

                            2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

                            Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

                            3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

                            4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

                            5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

                            II. Some did backslide.
                            1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

                            2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

                            3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

                            III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
                            1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

                            2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

                            3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

                            4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

                            5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

                            6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

                            7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

                            8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

                            9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
                            Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
                            Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
                            Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
                            Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

                            10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

                            11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

                            12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

                            13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

                            14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

                            15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

                            16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joyfilled View Post
                              Sorry, but all one needs is a basic understanding of word vocabulary and grammar to understand what that passage or any passage in the bible means. But what Satan does is try to re-define simple words like "is", "a", "cannot" "good" tree" in order to twist meanings into their opposite. I don't do that because Paul tells us not to quibble about words. If we do, we can re-write the bible to make it say anything that itching ear want to hear.

                              So as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval. " Those who have God's approval don't have to re-define simple words that we all learned in elementary school. Those who don't believe the bible, do have to try to re-define simple words like "is" because they don't like what the bible says. So if one doesn't understand the simple words in that passage, then he has no chance of understanding the spiritual truths underneath them. One cannot follow someone he doesn't believe or understand.

                              But according to your reasoning, then every denomination is right because they can change the bible to make it say anything he wants it to say; thus there would be no false teachers, which is of course, untrue. So all one has to do is believe the simple words in the bible instead of changing them around to make them say the opposite.
                              Alright, but I never came in here disagreeing with your interpretation. I simply pointed out that you believe wholeheartedly that you're correct and everyone else is wrong. So much so that you would never consider yourself wrong; it must be everyone else, and they must be wrong because they're interpreting scripture in accordance with Satan! Of course, you have the true™ interpretation.

                              Nothing I've said in this thread would allow everyone denomination to be right. All I've said was, "maybe you're wrong " The only reason I brought it up is because that's how you're replying to everyone. I don't mean to be rude.

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