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  • I've changed my position

    As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

    Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

    Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

    In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:
    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


    Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

    All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. )

  • #2
    Originally posted by cwb View Post
    As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

    Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


    The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

    Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

    In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


    In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


    Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

    All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. )
    Hi CBW,

    This is in no way a rebuttle, just a couple of scriptures to hopefully help.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    Whenever you believe is the time for the dead to be judged, then that is what applies to what Jesus is reffering to. According to Revelation this takes place after the millenium is complete.

    I hope as I have said that this will be helpful.

    Firstfruits

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by cwb View Post
      As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

      Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


      The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

      Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

      In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


      In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


      Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

      All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. )
      Congratulations CWB!

      I know that you have not reached this decision over night. I know how much time I spent with the Lord in prayer as I looked to His Holy Spirit to show me in His word the absolute truth about the endtimes and His Return.

      I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussions with you here over the years while you were a strong and passionate pretrib/premil while I was post-trib/amil. But regardless of how much you disagreed with me, you always have shown me the greatest respect as your sister in Christ and never attacking me personally while at the same time being bold to discuss your views with the Scriptures that you believed supported those views. (Our precious QD is the same)

      So I know that to openly declare this is something that you have put a lot of thought into and I believe led by the Lord to post it here.

      I certainly agree with you brother about disrespecting anyone who does not hold to our particular view. We are to love one another as Jesus commanded us to do regardless of our endtime view. The important thing is that all pretrib/premil, post-trib/premil and post-trib/amil along with partial-pretists are all looking upward for our Blessed Hope when He splits that eastern sky and we will be united spiritually and physically with our Precious Lord for all eternity.

      Love you and appreciate you dear brother!

      Comment


      • #4
        Your frankness is impressive. Also, you have given three well thought out, Biblical reasons why.

        Originally posted by cwb
        All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. )
        None from me cwb. In fact I probably have to apologise for the last time I threw a rock through one of your windows. Sorry.
        "Your name and renown
        is the desire of our hearts."
        (Isaiah 26:8)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
          Hi CBW,

          This is in no way a rebuttle, just a couple of scriptures to hopefully help.

          Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

          Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

          Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

          Whenever you believe is the time for the dead to be judged, then that is what applies to what Jesus is reffering to. According to Revelation this takes place after the millenium is complete.

          I hope as I have said that this will be helpful.

          Firstfruits
          That is what it seems to me too.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
            Your frankness is impressive. Also, you have given three well thought out, Biblical reasons why.



            None from me cwb. In fact I probably have to apologise for the last time I threw a rock through one of your windows. Sorry.
            I probably threw a few rocks myself and apololgise to you as well. Probably a good idea to endeavor to not throw rocks - too much glass in God's house.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
              Congratulations CWB!

              I know that you have not reached this decision over night. I know how much time I spent with the Lord in prayer as I looked to His Holy Spirit to show me in His word the absolute truth about the endtimes and His Return.

              I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussions with you here over the years while you were a strong and passionate pretrib/premil while I was post-trib/amil. But regardless of how much you disagreed with me, you always have shown me the greatest respect as your sister in Christ and never attacking me personally while at the same time being bold to discuss your views with the Scriptures that you believed supported those views. (Our precious QD is the same)

              So I know that to openly declare this is something that you have put a lot of thought into and I believe led by the Lord to post it here.

              I certainly agree with you brother about disrespecting anyone who does not hold to our particular view. We are to love one another as Jesus commanded us to do regardless of our endtime view. The important thing is that all pretrib/premil, post-trib/premil and post-trib/amil along with partial-pretists are all looking upward for our Blessed Hope when He splits that eastern sky and we will be united spiritually and physically with our Precious Lord for all eternity.

              Love you and appreciate you dear brother!
              Thanks for the kind words, Shirley. I agree with you that the most important thing is that we keep looking upward for our blessed hope. Keeping that hope strong in our hearts for when we will be united with our Lord and all our brothers and sisters in Christ is the anchor of our souls.

              Heb. 6:18 - 19
              That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
              Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with Shirley that I KNOW you have put a lot of study time and prayer time into this and I also know this is not an easy decision! I recall when I came to this conclusion, the acceptance literally made me sick. That is at first, it made me sick. It seemed to me that I was upset with myself, that I had not seen sooner. And at first, this did not seem as soothing--but that was only at first.


                Now, you will see that scriptures all through the Bible will begin to go together, and form a beautiful picture.

                You know, I remember the first inkling that I had about pre-trib being wrong. It was when I was again reading in Revelations 13. (I now refer to this chapter as "the mark of the beast chapter.)

                In verses 3-7, where it says:

                3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

                4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

                6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

                7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

                I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"


                Then I kept noticing that NOWHERE did Christ Jesus EVER mention one thing that represented a rapture. I searched all over, looking into what Jesus had said. I focused on Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, Luke 21....reading them over and over...but not one mention had Jesus made about a rapture, or that people would wonder where the saints went. No mention at all. Surely, it seemed to me, he would have told us something. But he did not. Everything else he laid out, one thing at a time.

                This realization finally totally convinced me that I had to change my view. But it was not an easy change, for me anyway. It took a LOT of study and restudy.
                My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diggindeeper View Post
                  I agree with Shirley that I KNOW you have put a lot of study time and prayer time into this and I also know this is not an easy decision! I recall when I came to this conclusion, the acceptance literally made me sick. That is at first, it made me sick. It seemed to me that I was upset with myself, that I had not seen sooner. And at first, this did not seem as soothing--but that was only at first.


                  Now, you will see that scriptures all through the Bible will begin to go together, and form a beautiful picture.

                  You know, I remember the first inkling that I had about pre-trib being wrong. It was when I was again reading in Revelations 13. (I now refer to this chapter as "the mark of the beast chapter.)

                  In verses 3-7, where it says:

                  3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

                  4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                  5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

                  6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

                  7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

                  I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"


                  Then I kept noticing that NOWHERE did Christ Jesus EVER mention one thing that represented a rapture. I searched all over, looking into what Jesus had said. I focused on Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, Luke 21....reading them over and over...but not one mention had Jesus made about a rapture, or that people would wonder where the saints went. No mention at all. Surely, it seemed to me, he would have told us something. But he did not. Everything else he laid out, one thing at a time.

                  This realization finally totally convinced me that I had to change my view. But it was not an easy change, for me anyway. It took a LOT of study and restudy.

                  Hi diggindeeper,
                  I still do believe there will be a rapture (when the church is taken off this earth) though. I have not changed my view as to whether there will be a rapture. I believe that I thess 4 says there will be a rapture. I have just changed my view as to the timing of when this takes place, from pre-trib to post trib.

                  I Thess 4:17
                  Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
                  The word "rapture" is just another word for "caught up". I still believe as I did before that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen and the church will be taken off this earth. I just see this as happening post trib now as opposed to pre-trib.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Do we get anything in return,
                    a future draft choice or at least some cash?
                    Acts 17:11

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Khoolaid View Post
                      Do we get anything in return,
                      a future draft choice or at least some cash?
                      I'm not quite following you. In return for what?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cwb View Post
                        Hi diggindeeper,
                        I still do believe there will be a rapture (when the church is taken off this earth) though. I have not changed my view as to whether there will be a rapture. I believe that I thess 4 says there will be a rapture. I have just changed my view as to the timing of when this takes place, from pre-trib to post trib.

                        I Thess 4:17


                        The word "rapture" is just another word for "caught up". I still believe as I did before that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen and the church will be taken off this earth. I just see this as happening post trib now as opposed to pre-trib.
                        I admire your courage. It isn't easy to change positions. I too moved from Pretrib to Premil albeit slowly and painfully. I found Premil harder to give up than Pretrib.

                        Amils believe in the catching away. They shy away from the word 'rapture' only because it is associated with the Pretrib rapture belief of 2 future comings. Anyway, is is safer to use scriptural terminologies.

                        Paul
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Khoolaid
                          Do we get anything in return,
                          a future draft choice or at least some cash?


                          I'm not quite following you. In return for what?
                          It's a sports analogy and obviously a poor attempt at a joke. I do wish you the best in your growth.
                          Acts 17:11

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cwb View Post
                            As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

                            Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


                            The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in
                            Amen.


                            Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God.

                            I agree..... the error A-mills make is that they still see a thousand year period pertaining to this relm which we currently live. As you probably know I see this time period as metaphorically and represeting timelessness outside of thie relm. Look at it this way and it should clear up any confusion.

                            I still disagree on any rapture pre or post. We all die and the only thing being raptures is our DEAD bodies from the grave.

                            Mark

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              Amen.





                              I agree..... the error A-mills make is that they still see a thousand year period pertaining to this relm which we currently live. As you probably know I see this time period as metaphorically and represeting timelessness outside of thie relm. Look at it this way and it should clear up any confusion.
                              I did not know that you saw it this way but am intrigued by what you wrote here. I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying so am wondering if you could explain a little further. I was also wondering what you meant by "timelessness" since Rev 20 seems to me to indicate that there will be a time when the 1000 years have expired.

                              Comment

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