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  • The Bible alone

    How do we establish sola scriptura?
    "For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless." Psalms 84:11

    Patriot of GOD's Kingdom

  • #2
    Simple - Anything in the Bible may be regarded as absolute Truth. Anything that comes from any man (Pope or otherwise) is just another sinner's opinion. Any questions?
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
      Simple - Anything in the Bible may be regarded as absolute Truth. Anything that comes from any man (Pope or otherwise) is just another sinner's opinion. Any questions?
      I'm discussing Catholicism with someone and sola scriptura came up. Does the Bible present itself as the ultimate authority for believers--above the authority of the Church?
      "For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless." Psalms 84:11

      Patriot of GOD's Kingdom

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FreetoSmile View Post
        I'm discussing Catholicism with someone and sola scriptura came up. Does the Bible present itself as the ultimate authority for believers--above the authority of the Church?
        Yes.

        2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

        Galatians 1:8-9 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God's curse!"

        I'd say Paul makes it clear that "all Scripture" is imbued with total authority, and if anybody preaches anything contrary to what is contained within the pages of the Scriptures, "let that person be under God's curse".

        Any other questions?
        ----------------------------------------------
        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FreetoSmile View Post
          How do we establish sola scriptura?
          You cannot. It is a faulty teaching that ought to be jettisoned.

          It has a few faults that are not relevant to your question, however, relative to your question, the teaching cannot be "established" because its logic is interally inconsistent.

          There are two main issues to address relavtive to your question:

          (1) Sola Scriptura teaches that the Bible is the sole (i.e.: Sola) source for doctrinal/dogmatic teaching. However, Sola Scriptura is, itself, a doctrinal/dogmatic teaching. So, one would think that the Bible would contain the teaching of the doctrinal/dogmatic teaching Sola Scriptura as the BIble is the only source for doctrinal/dogmatic teachings. However, the Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura at all whatsoever. Therefore, there is no Biblical basis for the teaching that says all teaching has to come from the Bible. Sola Scriptura is a teaching absent from our spiritual forefathers, the Jews, and an alternative to Sola Scriptura is suggested by Paul in 2 Thess 2:15 in his suggestion to heed the teachings passed by word of mouth (as opposed to writing).

          (2) Every holy book claims to be the Word of God written including the Quaran, the Book of Mormon, and the various Hindu writings, etc. That a book may internally claim to be God's Word does not make it so. I realize that you believe (as do I) that the Bible is the only inspired Scripture. I do not doubt that. However, many people "feel led" to believe one holy book over another and over the Bible. So, how does one know that the Bible is the holy book of God as opposed to, say, the Quaran? Therefore, by definition, there had to be some extra-biblical authority to establish the Bible as God's holy book. That the Bible is God's holy book is not self-evident, but was established as such by the Community of Believers. Therefore, as there was, by definition, an extant authority to identify the Bible as God's Word, there cannot be Sola Scriptura as an alternative source of authority has been identified.

          The are other issues to contend with but these two answer your question: no there is no way to establish the teaching.

          The more appropriate teaching is Scriptura Suprema which is described in another post below.
          “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FreetoSmile View Post
            I'm discussing Catholicism with someone and sola scriptura came up. Does the Bible present itself as the ultimate authority for believers--above the authority of the Church?
            The Bible makes no assertion for itself as the only authority. Indeed, the Bible demonstrates the authority of the Church in Acts 15 where the Community of Believers resolved an issue not by using Scripture only but by the conscensus among Christians.

            That the Church, and only the Church, was able to write, identify, and compile the Bible indicates that the Church, by definition, has authority on the level of the Bible. For example, Luke, a member of the Church, wrote much of the NT. Unless we afford him authority in the Name of the Church, there is no reason to read his writings as Scripture. Further, the Church later identified Luke as an inspired writer, not because Luke was self-evidently inspired, but because the Church identified him as inspired. Finally, the Church compiled Luke's writings with others and called it "Scripture". So, by definition, the Church has authority.

            Of course, the issue is, of course, the relationship between the CHurch and the BIble. God has given us three (3) sources of authority (corresponding with the Trinity): the Bible, the Church, and wisdom. Through this three-legged stool we have come to understand the Bible as supreme, or Scriptura Suprema. This paradigm places the Bible at the so-called "top of the heap" in terms of authority. No teaching, however church-based on wise is a legitmate teaching if it conflicts with the Bible. However, Scriptura Suprema acknowledges the fact that the Church wrote, identified, and compiled the Bible so, under this paradigm, the Church still retains authority, but that authority is checked and balanced by the Written Word. Finally, that the Bible ought to be the supreme is wise and logical as the written word never changes whilst the doctrine-du-jour always does. Therefore, here you see the third leg of the stool come into play. It is, of course, checked by the Bible and the CHurch.

            This sort of paradigm does not force one to accept logically impossible teachings (i.e.: Sola Scriptura) or clearly erroneous conclusions by ignoring Christian history (i.e.: the Church has no authority) while, at the same time, allowing for the acknowledgment that the Bible is, indeed, supreme. It also cuts down on schism. Sola Scriptura has caused Christendom to divide into thousands of very small fragments. As there is no firm basis by which one can measure one's BIblical interpretation. Sola Suprema cuts down on schism and allows Christians to be intellectually honest and admit that on some issues there is no clear teaching on an issue and allows for individual conscience to decide without dividing up.

            Indeed, the above is probably one of the main faults of Sola Scriptura which is its failure to give a basis to determine one interpretation over another. Protestants, all of whom adhere to Sola Scriptura, are completly divided as there is no way to determine, objectively, whether one person's interpretive paradigm is superior or more correct than others. As a result, you have Bible-Only Baptists with one belief and Bible-Only Presbyerians with another, and Bible-Only Lutherans with a third, and Bible-Only nondenominationals with innumerable others and so on. There is no objective way to chose which BIble-Only church actually got it right.

            Under Sola Suprema one has two other sources of authority by which one can measure one's teachings: the Church and Wisdom. This paradigm acknowledges the Bible's supreme authority but allows for the Church and Wisdom to play a roll in determining how the Bible is read.

            This is vastly different from the Roman Catholic Church's position that the Church is the one and only authority. This position is in error and has led to other errors in teaching.

            God's gift of the Bible ought to be kept in its place of supreme authority, but it ought to be used in the wisest sort of way.
            “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
              Yes.

              2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

              Galatians 1:8-9 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God's curse!"

              I'd say Paul makes it clear that "all Scripture" is imbued with total authority, and if anybody preaches anything contrary to what is contained within the pages of the Scriptures, "let that person be under God's curse".

              Any other questions?
              2 Tim 3:16 says Scripture is "used for" various things and is God breathed. It does NOT say that Scripture is the ONLY source of authority or that nothing else can be led by God-the Holy Spirit.

              The Galatians passage really is not relevant as no one is suggesting things being taught against the Gospel.
              “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FreetoSmile View Post
                How do we establish sola scriptura?
                I've debated Catholic's on this issue, and the only way I've been able to do it effectively is to show them the contradictions between Scripture & Sacred Tradition. If they contradict, then one is in error and can't be from God. They have to make a choice on what they want to rely on as absolute truth. It can't be scripture AND tradition.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                  I've debated Catholic's on this issue, and the only way I've been able to do it effectively is to show them the contradictions between Scripture & Sacred Tradition. If they contradict, then one is in error and can't be from God. They have to make a choice on what they want to rely on as absolute truth. It can't be scripture AND tradition.
                  I think it is significant to define "Sacred Tradition". Sacred Tradition to a RCC includes church pronouncements after the Great Schism of 1054. The Church's authority was greatly compromised after that and certainly no one denomination has universal authority. The problematic teachings flowing from Rome occured after the Schism.

                  Otherwise, I agree, nothing can conflict with the Bible.
                  “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes! And there is Scripture to prove it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      the difference between the Bible and the Quran and other 'words of the Lord' is that there is no backing for it... I don't know of muslims raising people from the dead... they kill people in the name of their God...

                      if you don't believe the Bible is the true word of the living God, then how can you be so sure of the words of Christ... you doubt the very Christ you believe and have faith and place your salvation in... If man can write a more complete book than the Bible, I have yet to see it... no book backs itself up more than the Holy Bible... To not believe in Sola Scriptura is to say that God really didn't mean what he said and he needed back up... which is a libel on the character of God and glorifies man...

                      Sola Scriptura, there is no other way.
                      The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                        The Bible makes no assertion for itself as the only authority. Indeed, the Bible demonstrates the authority of the Church in Acts 15 where the Community of Believers resolved an issue not by using Scripture only but by the conscensus among Christians.

                        Through this three-legged stool we have come to understand the Bible as supreme, or Scriptura Suprema. This paradigm places the Bible at the so-called "top of the heap" in terms of authority. No teaching, however church-based on wise is a legitmate teaching if it conflicts with the Bible.
                        Seamus,

                        I see no difference between what you term "Scriptura Suprema" and what the reformers termed "Sola Scriptura" or for that matter what the OP stated when he said:

                        "I'm discussing Catholicism with someone and sola scriptura came up. Does the Bible present itself as the ultimate authority for believers--above the authority of the Church"

                        The reformers certainly never suggested tossing our history, church, reason, logic, etc. What they did maintain was that scripture was the FINAL authority on all matters of faith. If the Church's (or reason, logic, whatever) teaching contradicted the clear teaching of scripture then scripture has the FINAL authority.

                        So, call a dog "cat" but it still barks. Sola Scriptura, as defined by the reformers, never suggested to disregard other sources of God's direction but that scripture, and scripture alone, is the final authority on matters of faith.
                        WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                        He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                        securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                        Toolman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Toolman View Post
                          Seamus,

                          I see no difference between what you term "Scriptura Suprema" and what the reformers termed "Sola Scriptura" or for that matter what the OP stated when he said:

                          "I'm discussing Catholicism with someone and sola scriptura came up. Does the Bible present itself as the ultimate authority for believers--above the authority of the Church"

                          The reformers certainly never suggested tossing our history, church, reason, logic, etc. What they did maintain was that scripture was the FINAL authority on all matters of faith. If the Church's (or reason, logic, whatever) contradicted the clear teaching of scripture then scripture has the FINAL authority.

                          So, call a dog "cat" but it still barks. Sola Scriptura, as defined by the reformers, has never suggested to disregard other sources of God's direction but that scripture, and scripture alone, is the final authority on matters of faith.

                          I disagree. You talk of the "clear teaching of Scripture" as if it were, indeed, clear. If that were the case, there would not be thousands of Protestant denominations all claiming to represent the "clear teaching of Scripture". This where Sola Scriptura has gotten the Reformation churches.

                          One of the net results of the Reformation was to essentially proceed with Biblical interpretation without the benefit of history and the authority of the Church. For example, until the begining of the 20th Century, Baptist CHurches did not celebrate Christmas because there is no Biblical instruction to do so. As a result, this tendancy has stretched into other areas, such as the rejection of the Apostolic Succession, sacraments, pedobaptism, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and many other things. Allowing Scripture to be supreme, while allowing the Church to illuminate it, will not allow one to forgo these important, and Scriptural. teachings.
                          “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by timmyb View Post
                            the difference between the Bible and the Quran and other 'words of the Lord' is that there is no backing for it... I don't know of muslims raising people from the dead... they kill people in the name of their God...

                            if you don't believe the Bible is the true word of the living God, then how can you be so sure of the words of Christ... you doubt the very Christ you believe and have faith and place your salvation in... If man can write a more complete book than the Bible, I have yet to see it... no book backs itself up more than the Holy Bible... To not believe in Sola Scriptura is to say that God really didn't mean what he said and he needed back up... which is a libel on the character of God and glorifies man...

                            Sola Scriptura, there is no other way.
                            I do not disparage the BIble or its inspiration however it ought not to be used in a way that is contrary to its purpose. The Bible was never meat to be or represent itself to be the ONLY source of authority for the Christian.

                            I never said "God really didn't mean what he said". How is it you have drawn that conclusion?

                            I have no doubt in Christ as one does not need the Bible to have faith in Christ, but thank God that we do! Why do you think I doubt Christ? I think the BIble is inspired. Not believing in Sola Scriptura does not mean I do not believe the BIble is inspired.
                            “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              I disagree.
                              With which part? What you called "scriptura suprema" is the exact same thing the reformers called "sola scriptura". There is no difference in the definition of the 2.

                              I think you are confusing "solo scriptura" with "sola scriptura".

                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              You talk of the "clear teaching of Scripture" as if it were, indeed, clear. If that were the case, there would not be thousands of Protestant denominations all claiming to represent the "clear teaching of Scripture". This where Sola Scriptura has gotten the Reformation churches.
                              Exactly where God would have His church.

                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              One of the net results of the Reformation was to essentially proceed with Biblical interpretation without the benefit of history and the authority of the Church. For example, until the begining of the 20th Century, Baptist CHurches did not celebrate Christmas because there is no Biblical instruction to do so.
                              As they should. There is no biblical cause to celebrate Christmas. Romans 14 clearly gives the believer liberty to follow his conscience in these areas.

                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              As a result, this tendancy has stretched into other areas, such as the rejection of the Apostolic Succession, sacraments, pedobaptism, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and many other things.
                              All secondary doctrines that should be questioned and bare no result upon salvation or are essential for salvation. Many of these things were debated amongst the educated within the Church for centuries before Luther. Printing press (and public education) just made those debates available to the "lay man".

                              You even said so in your definition of "scriptura suprema":
                              "No teaching, however church-based on wise is a legitmate teaching if it conflicts with the Bible"

                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              Allowing Scripture to be supreme, while allowing the Church to illuminate it, will not allow one to forgo these important, and Scriptural. teachings.
                              The problem becomes when the Church's illumination of it contradicts it. Then scripture becomes the final authority, as the reformers pointed out.
                              WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                              He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                              securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                              Toolman

                              Comment

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