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  • Jesus says no to war!

    though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

    1 Tim 6:3,4
    tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
    God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
    Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

    to really to as basic as possible;
    let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

    Matt 5:39
    "Do not resist an evil person."

    Matt 5:44
    "Love your enemies."

    In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

    Rom12:14
    "Bless those who persecute..."

    Rom12:17
    "Never pay back evil for evil."

    Rom12:20
    "If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

    NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.

  • #2
    You are quite correct. Jesus taught that His Kingdom shall not be spread by military force. All the verses you quoted are referring to our personal response to persecution. At an individual level, members of the Kingdom of God are not to take vengence into their own hands.

    But these verses aren't about what nations do. In fact, Jesus assumed that nations would fight. He said that if His kingdom were of this world, His people would physically fight for Him. The kingdoms of this world will fight. And if a Christian is to submit to the governing authorities, that may include fighting in that governments wars. That's b/w each Christian and the Lord.

    I found one of your lines particularly interesting...

    as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King
    Assuming your are referring to America's current war, where did you hear that the deaths involved are in the name of Jesus?
    The Matthew Never Knew
    The Knew Kingdom

    Comment


    • #3
      When a preacher says, lets pray for our young people in Iraq, isn't the implication of his prayer that he is praying that they will not die in the war but at the same time, knowing that they are there to kill if need be, isn't the prayer in effect saying it is better for them to kill and survive than to be killed? And are not a lot of these people, both the prayers and the warriors professing to love Jesus?

      Shouldn't the prayer rather be to enlighten the poor souls that have been deluded into believing that as Christians they can kill their fellow humans also made in His image?
      But some of the enemy combatants, such as in the 2nd World War were also Christians!! Both sides fighting while as both sides having Christians killing each other.

      Submitting ourselves to every ordinance of man is supposed to be for the Lord's sake.
      Is obedience to fight a carnal war really done for the Lord's sake, while as the weapons of our warfare are not carnal?
      Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
        Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.
        Speaking only from the New Testament is just as bad as the atheist apologist demeaning Christianity only from the Old Testament. I'm sorry, but all scripture is inspired--all scripture must be considered. I don't like killing, I don't advocate it, but guess what? This is a fallen existence. War is necessary at times.

        If Jesus were against war, He would have said so. He had plenty of opportunity to.

        Comment


        • #5
          There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
          Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
          As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
          Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
          Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
            though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion
            Wow! All I can do is to ask, "Is the God of the Old Testament not the God of the New Testament?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
              There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
              Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
              As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
              Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
              Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.
              Have I suggested we "override" the New Testament with the Old Testament (this is a horrible naming convention, by the way)? Absolutely not. But let's not also forget at the same time that the "New" Testament, a lot of the time, is illuminated by the "Old" Testament.

              But if you want to jump off a cliff, accusing me of obscenities I've yet to utter. By all means, go ahead. I have no problem standing here quietly, watching. All I've suggested, hitherto, is that one cannot take "New" Testament teaching in seclusion of the rest of scripture. Especially this big chunk of the Bible people don't like to study, the... "Old" Testament. And I really do hate that naming convention, there's nothing "Old" about it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
                When a preacher says, lets pray for our young people in Iraq, isn't the implication of his prayer that he is praying that they will not die in the war but at the same time, knowing that they are there to kill if need be, isn't the prayer in effect saying it is better for them to kill and survive than to be killed? And are not a lot of these people, both the prayers and the warriors professing to love Jesus?
                You're way off here. As a preacher I've never prayed for the soldiers with that mindset. And as a Christian I've never heard anyone in our congregation pray with that mentality. We pray for the chaplains. We pray for peace. We pray for safety.

                Submitting ourselves to every ordinance of man is supposed to be for the Lord's sake.
                Is obedience to fight a carnal war really done for the Lord's sake, while as the weapons of our warfare are not carnal?
                You seem to be confused. A Christian soldier can know the difference b/w spiritual warfare (his warfare as a member of the kingdom of God) and national warfare (his warfare as a citizen on earth). He can recognize his primary citizenship while participating in his secondary citizenship.

                Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.
                The New Covenant began with the taking of a human life. Certainly the Kingdom of God is not to be spread by force, but you are neglecting the fact that the Scriptures you are using are talking about the Kingdom of God, not the kingdoms of this world. Each Christian has to work it out in their conscience whether they can be part of a secular army. Personally, I couldn't do it if the role i was placed in entailed killing others.
                The Matthew Never Knew
                The Knew Kingdom

                Comment


                • #9
                  Laiddownhislife... just to let you know, when our church prays for Iraq, they pray for the soldiers, AND the civillians. When I pray for people, I'm not praying for their well being so they can go out and kill people. I'm praying for God to so move in their lives that they will come to know the King, and be saved.

                  You seem to think Christians are praying to facilitate killing. Why assume such ugly things of another Christian's prayers? Seems the accuser of the brethren has been whispering in many people's ears. Don't listen to him.
                  Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                  My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
                    NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
                    Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
                    Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



                    Why did Christ want his disciples to sell things to buy swords?
                    1Peter 3:15
                    (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
                      There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
                      Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
                      As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
                      Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
                      Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.
                      I wasn't aware the OT was nothing more than laws. Did you happen to notice anything at all in the OT that wasn't about the laws?

                      What do you make of the government wielding the sword? At the time Paul spoke these words the Roman government was in charge and they carried and used the sword. What did they use it for?

                      Can you tell me why Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to leave the military but instead spoke so highly of his faith? Do you think Jesus missed a perfect opportunity to guide this man out of sin into righteous living?

                      Another such occasion involved Peter. God spoke to Peter but never said anything about having Peter tell the man to get out of the military. Just another missed opportunity?

                      Back tot the OT for a moment. When God commanded the Jews to fight, including David and from the very beginning, what OT law was God using to make the command? Please be specific. Also, where in the NT did God speak specifically to the issue of war - as in where did He specifically mention war? Isn't war important enough to be mentioned specifically and directly?

                      It's fine I think for you to personally be against war, but I find real problems and gaps in your reasoning. That being so, I don't think you ought to try and push this as gospel and condemn others. Let it be your own conviction. Still, no problem discussing it to be sure. But I would appreciate an honest effort on your part to answer my questions. Thank you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                        Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
                        Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



                        Why did Christ want his disciples to sell things to buy swords?
                        Of course, I could be wrong... but fairly obviously it wasn't to use them as weapons, because you never hear of them using swords... well, apart from once, in the Garden, when Jesus rebukes them, and heals the injured man.

                        I see Jesus' words here as a metaphor. We should give up everything we have... absolutely everything, and purchase a sword... in other words, we should arm ourselves with that weapon sharper than a two edged sword... that is the Word of truth.
                        Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                        My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
                          though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

                          1 Tim 6:3,4
                          tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
                          God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
                          Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

                          to really to as basic as possible;
                          let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

                          Matt 5:39
                          "Do not resist an evil person."

                          Matt 5:44
                          "Love your enemies."

                          In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

                          Rom12:14
                          "Bless those who persecute..."

                          Rom12:17
                          "Never pay back evil for evil."

                          Rom12:20
                          "If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

                          NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
                          I agree.

                          peaceandlove, janet

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            dear all

                            Jesus plainly said
                            Matt 5:39
                            "Do not resist an evil person."

                            Matt 5:44
                            "Love your enemies."

                            now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.

                            Jesus clearly show there is a difference in the old and the new covenant.
                            you can live under whatever covenant you want, but DO NOT say you are following Jesus while supporting war in the flesh.

                            loving Jesus is obeying His commandments.
                            if you support war in the flesh, you do not love Jesus.
                            it s plain and straight forward.

                            in luke 22, please read til the end.the disciples answered,"here are two swords."jesus answered, that s enough.he did not tell them all to buy swords.perhaps it was a test of their faith, but he did not tell them after this passage, "now go to war."

                            leave Jesus' words out of your bible if you like.i will not!the command stands firm[along with all the others];"love your enemies."

                            blessings in obedience to Him!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LaidDownHisLIfe View Post
                              Jesus plainly said
                              Matt 5:39
                              "Do not resist an evil person."

                              Matt 5:44
                              "Love your enemies."

                              now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.

                              Jesus clearly show there is a difference in the old and the new covenant.
                              you can live under whatever covenant you want, but DO NOT say you are following Jesus while supporting war in the flesh.

                              loving Jesus is obeying His commandments.
                              if you support war in the flesh, you do not love Jesus.
                              it s plain and straight forward.

                              in luke 22, please read til the end.the disciples answered,"here are two swords."jesus answered, that s enough.he did not tell them all to buy swords.perhaps it was a test of their faith, but he did not tell them after this passage, "now go to war."

                              leave Jesus' words out of your bible if you like.i will not!the command stands firm[along with all the others];"love your enemies."

                              blessings in obedience to Him!
                              As has already been pointed out, those scriptures were written to individuals.

                              Let me ask you a question, should policemen turn the other cheek? Should police not resist evil? Is it wrong for government to resist the criminal element according to the verses you quote? Is that proper interpretation of scripture?

                              Matt 5:38-39

                              38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
                              NASB
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment

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