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  • Christians living Torah

    Question- Why do some Christians now observe certain elements of the First Covenant Torah?

    This question is addressed to people who called themselves Christians in the fashion that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. Why do you now observe certain elements of the First Covenant such as the Holy Festivals and Sabbaths? I am speaking to saints who formerly observed mainstream protestant or catholic doctrines and traditions which excluded First Covenant traditions.

    What motivated and influenced your change of observances and traditions? What revelation did you receive that encouraged you to see these things as relevant and sacred?
    This post is not addressed to Christians who do not observe these traditions, but feel free to join in the discussion. I am trying to see how others came to this same point in their walk with Jesus as I did.

    I personally see the Torah in a differently light now. I see it through the spiritual eyes now, for it is no longer of the flesh. I observe the Holy Feast Days and Sabbath in the newness of spirit, not in the letter of the old physical Torah. I now see and respect my circumcision of the heart and Torah that was spiritually written on my heart. Hence it has changed location from physical scrolls to the human spirit. Now it is to be observed as a memorial and celebration of Jesus; and, it is the means to love both God and neighbor.

    I started this path in 1995 when I started to reading the history of Christianity and matching it with today’s culture. I started to see some of the reasons for all the divisions and schisms in the Body of Christ. It was caused by what Paul said was carnality. Carnality by means of human traditions, thoughts, and biases had infiltrated Christianity and became a part of various believers’ traditions. I went into active rebellion because no one could provide me with good answers as to how and why things where the way they were. Christianity had wide holes in its theology and traditions, but most leaders seem comfortable leaving things at rest. I was looking for a way out of carnality for myself. However, all I did was fine myself in trouble in the churches I attended, became more carnal myself, and became discouraged. I wanted to know the truth at all cost so I thought. Hence God led me to a church unknown to me that was heading in the same direction.

    It began 1998 with the pastor teaching on paganism within Christian traditions. Then He taught on various subjects to include the need to be a community, identity, purpose, and aspects of the ancient Hebrew culture. Then in 2002 he begins to teach and observe the Jewish Festivals. This was not forced upon the members however. So, I begin to look into this matter myself through independent sources. Now, by witness and inspiration of the Holy Spirit I have come to observe and worship in the manner of the Holy Days and Sabbaths. We observe Sabbath on Friday after sundown as a community and still worship on Sunday as a community as well. I have learned elements and truths about Christ that I could have never understood independent of this transition.

    Now I observe Spiritual Torah not in the old letter of the law that my carnal man was subjected to but could never accomplish, but in spirit and truth as I am now spiritual. I can in no fashion earn my own justification for salvation, righteousness, and reward; but I can emulate my Lord who is Torah in spirit as led by the Holy Spirit. I observe the Holy Days and Sabbaths as memorials with the same motivations of other Christians worship and observing Easter.
    Last edited by manichunter; Jun 25th 2008, 09:11 PM.
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

  • #2
    One of my cities (Houston, Tx) largest churches have just begin to observe the Holy Days (Windsor Village Methodist Church). It has about 12,000 members. I totally floored and shocked as my neighbor who is member told me that their church was doing something new this year. What was funny about that to me was that a few years ago several of its members that I was crazy and behaving cultic when I said I was observing the Festivals. Now their Paster Kirby John Caldwell has went crazy as well....... I here on TBN all the time certain churches teaching on the Festivals and wanting to institute them...... I believe the boat is coming for some to jump on board or stay a on the shore. LOL
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

    Comment


    • #3
      Question: Do you think Christians should avoid the "forbbiden foods" of Leviticus in order to, as you say, emulate Christ?
      "For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless." Psalms 84:11

      Patriot of GOD's Kingdom

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FollowTheBanner View Post
        Question: Do you think Christians should avoid the "forbbiden foods" of Leviticus in order to, as you say, emulate Christ?
        Not for me, though it could be healthy in some cases, I know I do not need to eat pork, blood pressure to high............. I would have to go with the Spirit told Peter own that one.

        However, the Spirit says it comes down to pride. Pride of the natural Jew to boast of His law keeping and pride of the gentile believer to boast in His freedom. No carnality can please the Lord, hence I cannot be motivated by any carnality. The revelation is to be spiritual minded and trustful towards God. The spiritual minded does not consider the same considerations of the carnal man and it finds no measure to boast about.
        Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

        www.woc-church.org

        Comment


        • #5
          Everything in the Old Testament, including the feasts & observances, pictured Christ in some way. We actually did a study on 'Keeping the Feasts'. I'll insert it:

          God, in His wisdom, set up seven different feast days for His people to observe throughout the year. These feasts, if observed, would help His people “stay on schedule” spiritually, and thus stay right with Him. Whereas getting right with God meant sacrificing a lamb, staying right with God meant keeping the feasts. Each feast pictured something the CHRIST did or will do for humanity:


          1) Feast of Passover(c. April 14) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their salvation (See -I Cor 5:7)

          2) Feast of Unleavened Bread(c. April 15 -22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their sanctification(See-I Cor 5:8)

          3) Feast of First Fruits (c. April 16) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their resurrection (See - I Cor 15:20-23 & footnote on I Jn 3:3)

          4) Feast of Pentecost (c. June 3-9) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them through the HOLY SPIRIT concerning the unity they were to share with all believers (See - Acts 2:1 & Eph 3:1-6)

          5) Feast of Trumpets (c. October 1st) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST would do for Israel concerning their future regathering as a nation after the Rapture (See - I Thess 4:13-18)

          6) Day of Atonement (c. October 10th) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future restoration as a nation at CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Mt 24:30,31,42-46)

          7) Feast of Tabernacles (c. October 15-22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future Millennium as a nation after CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Rev 3:2)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by manichunter View Post
            Not for me, though it could be healthy in some cases, I know I do not need to eat pork, blood pressure to high............. I would have to go with the Spirit told Peter own that one.

            However, the Spirit says it comes down to pride. Pride of the natural Jew to boast of His law keeping and pride of the gentile believer to boast in His freedom. No carnality can please the Lord, hence I cannot be motivated by any carnality. The revelation is to be spiritual minded and trustful towards God. The spiritual minded does not consider the same considerations of the carnal man and it finds no measure to boast about.
            Whether one eats or does not eat scavengers or predators is between them and God. There is no boasting or pride in obedience to God, whether it's to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor or whether it's abstaining from pork. In Christ we are all led by The Holy Spirit in our own understandings, teachings and capacity. We are not set free to disobey God, we are set free to obey God without the yoke of condemnation.

            By the way, the teaching about Peter eating food that wasn't Kashrut is a false teaching. Peter's vision had nothing to do with diet restriction, if you bring in the entire context of the scripture.

            Cornelius is a Gentile who came to believe in the God of Israel, namely in the person of Jesus. But the reality is that Peter did not eat anything and God wasn't giving him a vision about eating food at all, nor was He repealing His Torah. God does not change.

            Peter saw a sheet coming down from heaven and inside it were "animals of all kinds" (not bacon and eggs). The text specifies about birds and reptiles, which would include sparrows, crows, turtles, snakes, geckos and many other types that I double we would find tasty in any sense.

            The God tells Peter to kill and eat anything he liked in the vision and Peter refused. Why? Because Peter was a Jew and remaind a Jew and kept the Torah as Jesus did, as all apostles, including Paul did.

            Then God makes a point "What I have made clean, do not call common". Now I know how the Greeks and bacon lovers make this fit their diet, but again, these were Jews living in a Jewish culture where pork simply wasn't considered food any more than a plastic lid would be food to us (even a lot of Greeks were vegetarians).

            So what did God mean anyway? Symbolism. Common in scripture. What do unclean animals represent in the sheet? Gentiles. How do I know that? Because it's the CONTEXT of the story. It's about Peter taking the Gospel to Cornelius and his family and the Gentiles who went to the synagogue to learn about Jesus.

            Peter later talks about the vision and says it taught him something - no it didn't teach him to break Torah, eat baby back ribs, and renounce his identity. It taught him that men from the nations are acceptable to God.

            God's not doing something new here. Just consult the prophets and Psalms. God always have accepted Gentiles. Peter didn't understand this. He and others thought Jesus was just for Jews and converts. God didn't repeal anything. God does not change. But the anti-Gentile sentiments in the first century Jews were not a teaching from God. God never commanded that there be a Court of Gentiles in the Temple. Jews had the idea that is was unclean to eat with Gentiles, or even be under their roof. This is the false teaching and the man made ordinances that Jesus Himself was so angry about that men put their ordinances before God's ordinances.

            All God did with Peter was eductate him on His way, and remove his man made Judasim blinders.
            Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

            Comment


            • #7
              So what did God mean anyway? Symbolism. Common in scripture. What do unclean animals represent in the sheet? Gentiles. How do I know that? Because it's the CONTEXT of the story. It's about Peter taking the Gospel to Cornelius and his family and the Gentiles who went to the synagogue to learn about Jesus.
              I totally agree with everything you've said. Verse 28 shows us what the vision was about...

              28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful(only unlawful according to man-made Jewish tradition... not YHWH's Law) it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
              Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
              -Jeremiah 6:16

              Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

              Comment


              • #8
                There is much to be learned when scripture is read in context (in regards to Peter's dream). Manichunter, I agree that many are beginning to consider the Feasts of the LORD that would never have considered them a decade ago. We began enjoyimg this blessing from God about 2 and a half years ago, thus this is our third full season on the Feasts. We had celebrated Passover for about four or five years before we began to consider the rest of the feasts and Sabbath. I believe there are a lot more followers of Messiah doing so now than even ten or twenty years ago.
                II Timothy 2:15
                Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

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                • #9
                  Soldout,
                  5) Feast of Trumpets (c. October 1st) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST would do for Israel concerning their future regathering as a nation after the Rapture (See - I Thess 4:13-18)

                  6) Day of Atonement (c. October 10th) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future restoration as a nation at CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Mt 24:30,31,42-46)

                  7) Feast of Tabernacles (c. October 15-22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future Millennium as a nation after CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Rev 3:2)
                  This is the problem I see with how those who think we ought to celebrate these feasts in honor of Christ, do not see that He has in fact fulfilled them all. And it is because they have adopted a tradition from those who share the same blindness, that they put it off into the future. Yet this is how the unbelievers who say Messiah has not come yet look upon all the feasts. Being partially blind is not the best place to be.

                  (1 Th 5:9-10 KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {10} Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

                  Are not we yet among those who are awake? Are we not living with Christ dwelling in our midst? If the wrath has come as predicted upon those to whom it was appointed, then this hope is already ours.

                  (Rom 5:11 KJV) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

                  (Lev 23:42-43 KJV) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: {43} That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

                  In this time when Israel dwelt in booths in the wilderness, no feasts had yet been given to them to celebrate. They were not even offering sacrifices yet according to the Levitical laws. Rather they were dwelling in the presence of God who was guiding them and met them in the tabernacle which Moses made. This is what we now have in Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us - the temple of God.

                  Israel however was to look back upon this time when they came into the land. Which if you recall God then gave them judges to guide them - which they rejected when they asked for a king instead. They did not want God to rule over them. This is why they needed to remember this time and the feast was therefore given for that purpose. There is no way this feast is a "memorial" for some future time for the Church!
                  Robin

                  Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                  And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                  Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                  Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would really love more information about observing these feasts/holy days. I work as a postpartum doula and my most recent clients were Orthodox Jews. I enjoyed the time I spent with them and they even invited me to partake in Sabbath dinner with them.

                    It really got me thinking about how gentile Christians are pretty lazy and unwilling to sacrifice. How many of us would be willing to give up our cell phones/tv/computers for 24 hours each and every week?

                    The last week I was helping this couple, they were observing a holiday (I forget the name of) where they were to stay up all night with family and friends just to discuss the scriptures. Wow! What if Christians did that!

                    Being Orthodox Jews permeates every thing that they do. An outsider cannot help but know upon first glance at them and upon observing all that they do and say that they are Orthodox Jews. Is my Christianity as obvious to others? I think that adding some of the observations you mention would do a great deal in focusing my attention on Christ and making Him more and more a part of the mundane of my life.

                    Please let me know if you have any websites or books you recommend. Then please pray for me to find the best way to proceed as my husband is not a Christian.

                    Christina

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                      Soldout,
                      This is the problem I see with how those who think we ought to celebrate these feasts in honor of Christ, do not see that He has in fact fulfilled them all. And it is because they have adopted a tradition from those who share the same blindness, that they put it off into the future. Yet this is how the unbelievers who say Messiah has not come yet look upon all the feasts. Being partially blind is not the best place to be.
                      A hearty "amen" from me.

                      It seems Paul's letter to the Galatians has been taken off the "required reading list" of many who call themselves Christians.

                      -


                      [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Matt14 View Post
                        A hearty "amen" from me.

                        It seems Paul's letter to the Galatians has been taken off the "required reading list" of many who call themselves Christians.
                        Paul was a Torah observent Jew all the way to his death. Perhaps you'd like to condemn him for his weak faith?

                        Condemnation and judgement is not a Christian virtue. Or is that no longer 'required reading'?

                        You don't know the hearts of myself or these people. I would never presume to judge your faith and obedience to God.

                        I'd be happy to discuss Galations, perhaps we can learn something together.
                        Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          oh for crying out loud....


                          soon Lord... soon

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SpokenFor View Post
                            I would really love more information about observing these feasts/holy days. I work as a postpartum doula and my most recent clients were Orthodox Jews. I enjoyed the time I spent with them and they even invited me to partake in Sabbath dinner with them.

                            It really got me thinking about how gentile Christians are pretty lazy and unwilling to sacrifice. How many of us would be willing to give up our cell phones/tv/computers for 24 hours each and every week?

                            The last week I was helping this couple, they were observing a holiday (I forget the name of) where they were to stay up all night with family and friends just to discuss the scriptures. Wow! What if Christians did that!

                            Being Orthodox Jews permeates every thing that they do. An outsider cannot help but know upon first glance at them and upon observing all that they do and say that they are Orthodox Jews. Is my Christianity as obvious to others? I think that adding some of the observations you mention would do a great deal in focusing my attention on Christ and making Him more and more a part of the mundane of my life.

                            Please let me know if you have any websites or books you recommend. Then please pray for me to find the best way to proceed as my husband is not a Christian.

                            Christina
                            For me it was a longing that when fulfilled was better than I could have imagined. Many will say that we are free on this side of the cross and I wholeheartedly agree. But as keck553 said, we are also free to obey without condemnation. Many will also point out that all these things were a foreshadowing of Messiah, and again I completely agree. I was aware of that fact before I began to observe the Feasts but after I began observing them, so much became even more clear. We are creatures of habit. We learn by doing and God set in place for us an opportunity each year for us to relearn, repeat, and remember Messiah and every facet of Him. These things without understanding, though quite interesting as you observed with the Jewish family you were helping, are nothing. Though they go through the motions, unfortunately they have no understanding of Messiah and how He fits in to all these things. But these things WITH knowledge of Messiah has been amazing for me and my family! As for a website, I don't know but I would suggest reading the Bible. Leviticus 23 is a good place to begin. God bless you as you seek!
                            II Timothy 2:15
                            Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                            Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

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                            • #15
                              Hi Denise,
                              But these things WITH knowledge of Messiah has been amazing for me and my family!
                              And on that we can agree!
                              Robin

                              Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                              And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                              Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                              Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                              Comment

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