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  • How Should Christians View OT Law?

    This one really has me spun. The bible teaches that Gods word is eternal and when he makes a promise or lays it out His word does not change. I am wondering about OT law as God laid it down to Moses and the prophets. My understanding is that Jesus' sacrifice was perfect and covers attonement for sins. Sacrifice of animals was no longer necessary after the resurection of Jesus. I hear alot of talk in Christian circles things like "we are no longer bound by the Law because of grace." So does that mean that the Law is void and we needn't bother with it because grace and such negates it? then there is Romans v28 - 31

    28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    So now I am thinking that as a Christian that the Law somehow still applies as some kind of guide line to hold fast to. Matthew 5:17 - 20 imply the law is still in effect.

    17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Is is because Christ lived a perfect life to the last detail that the law has is negated? I hear this alot in Christian circles and quite frankly I am confused. I conclude that Jesus is the redemption not obedience to the law. As a christian individual I am to obey the law and that grace is there when I fall short. When I fall short I repent to Jesus and through his blood that covers the transgression in Gods eves.

    How does this apply in a view of governing a society? Do we say through grace we let all the lawbreakers go and hope they come to Christ? How would a civilization handle the problems of murder, robbery, assault etc...? How does the whole thing about Matt 7:1 play into how a society meters out justice?

    1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    If everyone on a jury is afraid to give a convicted fellon the death peanalty based on Matt 7:1 and he gets out on early parole and commits another crime that ends up harming more victims then what? Does God hold the blood of the victims of the second crime against the jury who granted leinancy? And if this same jury gives this fellon the death sentence does God judge them using the measure they judged the fellon? Does grace cover this and how much?

    Some clarity here please because this has me confused.

    Dravenhawk
    Will you choose your own path or will you have it chosen for you?

    A private central bank issuing the public currency is a greater menace to the people than a standing army -- Thomas Jefferson.

    When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic -- Benjamin Franklin.

    "Re-electing Obama would be like the Titanic backing up and hitting the iceberg again" -- Unknown author. -- >> Psa. 109:8 Let his days be few, And let another take his office.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dravenhawk View Post
    How Should Christians View OT Law?
    I think they are great for living a good life. HOWEVER, they do not make us right with God. The law only showed us we were sinners. Jesus fulfilled the law's requirements by His sacrifice. So we hold on to Him for our justification.

    I got this from Biblegateway. Galatians 3:24

    24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.
    Footnotes:
    1. Galatians 3:24 The word translated guardian in vv. [24-25] is different from the word in [Gl 4:2]. In our culture, we do not have a slave who takes a child to and from school, protecting the child from harm or corruption. In Gk the word paidogogos described such a slave. This slave was not a teacher.
    This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

    Comment


    • #3
      The law condemned man - all men were sinners and men returned to their habitual sins after making the necessary sacrifice. Satan could continue to accuse man each time he fell. (refer book of Job)

      God wanted to defeat this design and hence sent Jesus to the world. We are no longer condemned because of our inability to remain sinless at all times. Rather God sees us as his children irrespective of sin, because he has purchased us with the blood of Jesus. Just as we do not diswon our kids when they misbehave, he no longer alienates his people when they disobey. This does not mean we can rely on grace and then continue on with a life of sin! Rather he gently reminds his children of their sins (via the Holy Spirit) and prods them on to higher maturity levels.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd say that Christians should view OT laws as FULFILLED.

        Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the laws, he came to FULFILL them. Meaning, we are no longer under the laws of the OT.

        That's different than the COMMANDMENTS though. (Which we're still to follow).

        However, the Jews felt compelled to continue living under the laws & traditions of the Old Covenant. (And still do today) They rejected Christ as the true Messiah they were looking for, and chose "tradition" instead.

        The OT laws were "types" that forshadowed the future coming of Jesus, and what his sacrifice for us would accomplish, as far as Salvation & fulfillment of the OT laws.
        Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
        _______________________________________________
        There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by markdrums View Post
          That's different than the COMMANDMENTS though. (Which we're still to follow).
          Interesting. I've never heard this angle before. How do you view the law and commandments differently? I'm really curious.
          Thanks.
          This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by -SEEKING- View Post
            Interesting. I've never heard this angle before. How do you view the law and commandments differently? I'm really curious.
            Thanks.
            Well, my friend, I'm glad you asked!
            The 10 Commandments are absolutley still relevant to this day:

            I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
            Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
            Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
            Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
            Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.
            Thou shalt not kill.
            Thou shalt not commit adultery.

            Thou shalt not steal.
            Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

            Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

            The Old Covenant laws however, Such as: Ceremonial sacrifices, Clean/unclean food laws, working on the Sabbath... etc.... have been fulfilled in Jesus. We're no longer required to live under those "laws", but still required to follow the "Commandments".



            Know what I mean?
            Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
            _______________________________________________
            There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by markdrums View Post
              Know what I mean?
              Yes I do my friend. Well put. Thanks.
              This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by -SEEKING- View Post
                Yes I do my friend. Well put. Thanks.
                Anytime man!!!
                I know that can be a little confusing for some people.... especially early on; Wondering what the difference is between the OT "laws", (That we're no longer under) and the "10 Commandments" (That we're still required to follow)?

                I'll admit, not too long ago I didn't understand the difference myself.
                Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                _______________________________________________
                There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jesus said in Matthew 22
                  36 - "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 - And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
                  38 - "This is the great and foremost commandment.
                  39 - "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
                  40 - "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

                  If you love God with all your heart, soul and mind, you will not worship "things" and you will not put anything else ahead of Him in daily living. You will rest each day in Him.

                  If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not steal from the, lie about them or want what they have.

                  In my opinion, the Big Ten have been distilled down into the Big Two - and they both hinge on one thing - love.
                  I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                  - Mahatma Gandhi



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So then, since Jesus fulfilled the law, then I am no longer required to stop at a red light or obey the speed limit?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                      So then, since Jesus fulfilled the law, then I am no longer required to stop at a red light or obey the speed limit?
                      Would the red light law be a part of the Old Testament Law?
                      I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                      - Mahatma Gandhi



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                        So then, since Jesus fulfilled the law, then I am no longer required to stop at a red light or obey the speed limit?
                        Well that wasn't one of the laws He fulfilled. But chances are if you do you may get a ticket. There's that whole pesky law of the land.
                        This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dravenhawk View Post
                          This one really has me spun. The bible teaches that Gods word is eternal and when he makes a promise or lays it out His word does not change. I am wondering about OT law as God laid it down to Moses and the prophets. My understanding is that Jesus' sacrifice was perfect and covers attonement for sins. Sacrifice of animals was no longer necessary after the resurection of Jesus. I hear alot of talk in Christian circles things like "we are no longer bound by the Law because of grace." So does that mean that the Law is void and we needn't bother with it because grace and such negates it? then there is Romans v28 - 31

                          28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

                          So now I am thinking that as a Christian that the Law somehow still applies as some kind of guide line to hold fast to. Matthew 5:17 - 20 imply the law is still in effect.

                          17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

                          Is is because Christ lived a perfect life to the last detail that the law has is negated? I hear this alot in Christian circles and quite frankly I am confused. I conclude that Jesus is the redemption not obedience to the law. As a christian individual I am to obey the law and that grace is there when I fall short. When I fall short I repent to Jesus and through his blood that covers the transgression in Gods eves.

                          How does this apply in a view of governing a society? Do we say through grace we let all the lawbreakers go and hope they come to Christ? How would a civilization handle the problems of murder, robbery, assault etc...? How does the whole thing about Matt 7:1 play into how a society meters out justice?

                          1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

                          If everyone on a jury is afraid to give a convicted fellon the death peanalty based on Matt 7:1 and he gets out on early parole and commits another crime that ends up harming more victims then what? Does God hold the blood of the victims of the second crime against the jury who granted leinancy? And if this same jury gives this fellon the death sentence does God judge them using the measure they judged the fellon? Does grace cover this and how much?

                          Some clarity here please because this has me confused.

                          Dravenhawk
                          People confuse this concept because they confuse the covenants. We live under the New Covenant, therefore we must see what the Bible teaches concerning Old Covenant laws and rituals, and their place in the New Covenant.

                          There were three divisions to God's Law (divided via association):
                          1) the Moral Law (10 commandments)
                          2) the Civil Law (civil, health and hygiene laws for society)
                          3) the Ceremonial Law (laws that governed the priesthood, sanctuary, etc)

                          Some aspects of this Law were nailed to the cross of Christ and abolished, while others are repeated in the NT for our observance.

                          The Moral Law was repeated in the NT by either Jesus or the apostles:
                          - No other gods before Him (1 Cor 8:4-6; Mk 12:29-30)
                          - No graven images (1 Cor 10:14; 1 Jn 5:20-21)
                          - No taking God's name in vain (Rom 2:24; 2 Tim 2:19)
                          - Remember the Sabbath (not repeated - this has become a New Covenant spiritual reality)
                          - Honour father and mother (Lk 18:20; EPh 6:1-4)
                          - Do not murder (Matt 5:21; Rom 13:9; 1 Jn 3:15)
                          - Do not commit adultery (Matt 5:28-32; Rom 13:9)
                          - Do not steal (Eph 4:28; Rom 13:9)
                          - Do not bear false witness (Matt 5:18-20; Rom 13:9)
                          - Do not covet (Rom 7:7-8; Lk 12:15; Col 3:5)

                          These were not nailed to the cross. When Paul teaches that the believer is "not under law, but under grace", he was not teaching that grace is lawlessness. This moral law has gone from external to internal; from tables of stone to the tables of our hearts. Love is the fulfilling of this law (Rom 13:8-10).

                          The Civil Law is still used by many nations today. Without such laws concerning property, relationships between man and man, etc, there would be chaos. These laws are needed for a well governed society. Western governments have been founded on these Judeo-Christian ethics.

                          The Ceremonial Laws have indeed been nailed to cross. These things include Old Covenant circumcision, sabbaths, animal sacrifices and oblations, festival days, holy days, the Tabernacle and Temple services, and the Old Covenant priesthood. At the cross, these things have been abolished (as to their religious value and other "letterism"). They pass through the cross and into a new and higher spiritual level in the New Covenant; they were simply shadows of greater things to come. Note Colossians 2:14-17.

                          Z.
                          "Unto you therefore which believe, He is precious" (1 Peter 2:7)


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vhayes View Post
                            Would the red light law be a part of the Old Testament Law?
                            Yes, by analogy. It's easy to forget that the Mosaic Law was the equivalent of a traffic law today. To answer the OP, we need to consider the question contemporaneously, as if we were living at the same time period. How would the Jews living in Jesus day have heard his statement that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it?

                            Suppose, by analogy, that Jesus came to your town and said, "I did not come to abolish the law concerning traffic lights; I came to fulfill it." Would you assume that he meant, "Now that I stopped at a red light, no one else needs to stop at a red light?"

                            I don't think that is what he meant. He said, "I did not come to abolish . . ." which means, he did not do away with the law of Moses. He didn't mean, "Since I have "fulfilled" the law, you no longer have to obey it." In essence, there is no difference between abolishing the law and causing everyone to ignore them. But he didn't mean that, I don't think.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                              Yes, by analogy. It's easy to forget that the Mosaic Law was the equivalent of a traffic law today. To answer the OP, we need to consider the question contemporaneously, as if we were living at the same time period. How would the Jews living in Jesus day have heard his statement that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it?

                              Suppose, by analogy, that Jesus came to your town and said, "I did not come to abolish the law concerning traffic lights; I came to fulfill it." Would you assume that he meant, "Now that I stopped at a red light, no one else needs to stop at a red light?"

                              I don't think that is what he meant. He said, "I did not come to abolish . . ." which means, he did not do away with the law of Moses. He didn't mean, "Since I have "fulfilled" the law, you no longer have to obey it." In essence, there is no difference between abolishing the law and causing everyone to ignore them. But he didn't mean that, I don't think.
                              I'm not sure I follow what you are saying - but I've been known to have that problem with lots of things now and again...

                              Two things came to mind -
                              1. If Jesus came today and said He had fulfilled the Law and I said, "Cool - no more traffic lights!!" I think Jesus would have told me that would be loving myself before my neighbor and that isn't what He meant at all. My neighbors safety and well-being should matter to me just as much as my own. That's the measuring stick, at least in my head.

                              and

                              2. If I "fulfill" the obligations of a mortgage , I am no longer obligated to make a payment to the bank each month. That is over, complete, fulfilled. It's a whole new ballgame.

                              Does that make sense? At all?
                              V
                              I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                              - Mahatma Gandhi



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