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  • Is God Torah

    Is God Torah?

    Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jesus is the Word.

    Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
    Scripture are all about Jesus.

    Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
    Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

    Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
    Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

    Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
    Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

    Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

    Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
    Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

    2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

    Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

    A few words to consider-
    Greek- "Word and Scripture"
    Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
    Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
    Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
    Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
    Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

    Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
    imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
    amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
    Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
    Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
    Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
    Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

    Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

    What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

  • #2
    Originally posted by manichunter View Post
    Is God Torah?

    Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jesus is the Word.

    Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
    Scripture are all about Jesus.

    Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
    Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

    Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
    Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

    Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
    Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

    Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

    Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
    Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

    2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

    Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

    A few words to consider-
    Greek- "Word and Scripture"
    Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
    Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
    Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
    Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
    Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

    Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
    imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
    amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
    Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
    Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
    Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
    Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

    Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

    What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?
    Hi,

    'Torah' means, instruction, law, ect. But as far as Torah being the Law of Moses, Jesus is NOT Torah. But Torah pointed to Him.

    You are not under Torah, that written on stone tablets. Rather, you are under the Living Word.

    2Witnesses

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 2Witnesses View Post
      Hi,

      'Torah' means, instruction, law, ect. But as far as Torah being the Law of Moses, Jesus is NOT Torah. But Torah pointed to Him.

      You are not under Torah, that written on stone tablets. Rather, you are under the Living Word.

      2Witnesses
      So what you are saying is that Torah is not a part of Scripture and the Word inspired and breathe by God. That Torah did not come from the heart of God. God got Torah from somewhere else, not of Himself. Jesus said all Scripture point to Him not just Torah, because He is all Scripture. How can you separate Torah from ALL Scripture. God spoke from His heart and things came into being. Some of it was written by His hand with the personal signature of God. LOL

      I did not say I was under the Torah according to the letter as given by Moses. Yes, I am under the Living and Spiritual Torah. I cannot separate any part of the Scripture by itself and call it truth. I have to take it all or nothing (that is how we get cults). The difference is in our interpretation of what Torah was, is, and who it is. If you admit that God is Torah, then you would have to investigate a whole lot of things.

      However, everything God spoke comes from the inside of who He is, it the same way with you. What you typed back in response is you. It came from your inner man, what he thinks, he believes, and he assumes in his own learned logic and emotional desires.

      Mt 12:34 -O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
      Lu 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
      Ro 4:17 -(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations" ) in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
      Ge 2:7 -And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Joh 13:34 - A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.Here is God in action again speaking Torah into existence.
      Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

      www.woc-church.org

      Comment


      • #4
        Just remember, the word :Word ... has more than one meaning.... and the different meanings does not necessarily all have the same meaning
        The LORD is my Miracle

        G_d was gracious He has shown favor


        Hope is a seed
        God plants in our hearts
        to remind us
        there are better things ahead.
        -Holley Gerth

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ACCM View Post
          Just remember, the word :Word ... has more than one meaning.... and the different meanings does not necessarily all have the same meaning
          Yes that is true, but I am just talking about one definition of Word. I provided the other definitions so people could to do their research. I am personalily talking about Jesus who is the word, hence the entirety and totality of all Scripture (The Word/Rhema) as we like to religiously say. Jesus is called the Word of God, hence everything spoken by God is about Jesus. It is a description of His person, character, office, and nature. We cannot selectively separate elements from the whole by personal choice and still have truth. This is where the stuggle is. How to reconcile the elements and aspects of God that I am not in agreement with?

          Some examples christians say:
          Some people say if God is love, then why is their so much violence?
          Some people say if God is merciful, then why am I suffering so badly?
          Some people say if God is Torah, then why is there so much lawlessness?
          Some people say if God is good, then why did my brother have to die?

          Lu 21:33 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
          Nothing of Jesus' word is passing away.

          Joh 12:49 - For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
          Everything spoken by Jesus came from the Father.

          Mt 10:20 - for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
          The same should go for us.
          Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

          www.woc-church.org

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by keck553
            The New Testament clearly tells us that the curse of the Law was nailed to the execution stake of Messiah. We need to be careful and understand that it was not the Law of Torah that was nailed, but rather the curse of the Law.
            It does not say that.

            Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

            Nothing about the curse of the law is mentioned. It says, "the handwriting of ordinances" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. What part of the law wasn't hand written? According to Thayer's, this Greek word means "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment" which is speaking of the law, all of it.
            1Peter 3:15
            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Naphal View Post
              It does not say that.

              Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

              Nothing about the curse of the law is mentioned. It says, "the handwriting of ordinances" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. What part of the law wasn't hand written? According to Thayer's, this Greek word means "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment" which is speaking of the law, all of it.
              What are you doing up so early this morning, I usually see you out at night.

              By the way, is Jesus the Torah.

              Just checking to see if you looked into it.

              Get back with you later. You are very helpful to me. You cause me to study even harder. Gee thanks.......... LOL

              See ya later.
              Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

              www.woc-church.org

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                Is God Torah?

                ....

                What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?
                Jesus is not the word of God in the sense that the bible is God. It just means, as you stated, that from the abundance of God's heart, came the bible. When he spoke the bible into being, he was revealing himself to us. So, in that way, Jesus is the Word because Jesus is the heart of God. God revealed himself fully in Christ. However, the bible, unlike Jesus, does not contain all the fullness of God.

                Having said that, we live by the Spirit of the Law now and no longer the letter.

                Rom 7:6
                6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
                NASB

                We no longer live by the oldness of the letter for we have been released from that. Instead, we live by the newness of the Spirit of the law.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                  What are you doing up so early this morning, I usually see you out at night.

                  By the way, is Jesus the Torah.

                  Just checking to see if you looked into it.

                  Get back with you later. You are very helpful to me. You cause me to study even harder. Gee thanks.......... LOL

                  See ya later.
                  I am usually more free for bible study and posting in the evenings but I find time when I can. I think it's more accurate to say Jesus is the Word rather than using the term "Torah". In some ways there is little difference between the terms but in others ways there are vast differences and it could cause confusion saying something that isn't explicitly spoken in the bible. Jesus isn't just the Word of God in the "torah" but all the bible so I prefer "Word" or "Word of God" which is inclusive of it all.
                  1Peter 3:15
                  (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                    By the way, is Jesus the Torah.
                    Actually, that's not accurate. Let's look at what Jesus said about the Torah as the Pharisees saw it.

                    John 5:39-40
                    39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
                    NASB

                    The scriptures Jesus referred to here, is the OT. The Pharisees thought that the Torah could save them. Therefor, they searched the Torah, thinking that in it, they could have eternal life. But the Torah couldn't save them and never could. Only Jesus could do that. But the Torah is where God spoke his heart to mankind and in it, he spoke of Jesus. And in Jesus, salvation can be found. The Torah points to Jesus but is not Jesus.
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                      I am usually more free for bible study and posting in the evenings but I find time when I can. I think it's more accurate to say Jesus is the Word rather than using the term "Torah". In some ways there is little difference between the terms but in others ways there are vast differences and it could cause confusion saying something that isn't explicitly spoken in the bible. Jesus isn't just the Word of God in the "torah" but all the bible so I prefer "Word" or "Word of God" which is inclusive of it all.
                      So it isn't all or nothing concerning the Scripture. Are you implying that Jesus is not the totality and embodiment of everything Scripture from Gen 1 to Rev 22. Are you saying God killed parts of Himself and made it of no effect. What is a shadow? It reflects off of something that actualies exist. What does Torah reflect off of? Where does it come from if not from the speaking heart of God. Who cannot separate your own words from your heart. It is you manifesting yourself to others. Showing the world who you are in your beliefs, manner of conduct, and preceptions.

                      2Pe 1:21 - for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
                      Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

                      www.woc-church.org

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        Actually, that's not accurate. Let's look at what Jesus said about the Torah as the Pharisees saw it.

                        John 5:39-40
                        39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
                        NASB

                        The scriptures Jesus referred to here, is the OT. The Pharisees thought that the Torah could save them. Therefor, they searched the Torah, thinking that in it, they could have eternal life. But the Torah couldn't save them and never could. Only Jesus could do that. But the Torah is where God spoke his heart to mankind and in it, he spoke of Jesus. And in Jesus, salvation can be found. The Torah points to Jesus but is not Jesus.

                        The Torah as you define it is in what you call the OT. I do not think the Torah can save anyone as I agree with you. I to believe that Jesus is the way, truth, and the life. However, we differ on how to view Scripture in its embodment as a whole. I actually believe that Paul meant all Scripture was inspired (God breathe) by God. Nothing can be subtracted to it or added to it as stated in the book of Revelations.

                        How can you say Torah is a shadow of things to come and not pay attention to what the shadow is reflected off of. How can you separate God's word into separate elements when God is His Word. Just like you are suppose to reflect your own word. Nah, I think you missed the message within the post. You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your post. If Torah is indeed Scripture then its manner of treatment is the same as the whole body of Scripture, since it refers to a whole person.
                        Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

                        www.woc-church.org

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                          So it isn't all or nothing concerning the Scripture. Are you implying that Jesus is not the totality and embodiment of everything Scripture from Gen 1 to Rev 22. Are you saying God killed parts of Himself and made it of no effect. What is a shadow? It reflects off of something that actualies exist. What does Torah reflect off of? Where does it come from if not from the speaking heart of God. Who cannot separate your own words from your heart. It is you manifesting yourself to others. Showing the world who you are in your beliefs, manner of conduct, and preceptions.

                          2Pe 1:21 - for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
                          Torah in the Hebrew appears 212 times and everytime it is rendered "law". To say "Jesus is Law" and law referring to the OT law would make that a false statement. Jesus freed us from the curse of the Torah/law:

                          the torah/law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

                          Christ redeemed us from the curse of the torah/law- Galatians 3:13

                          the strength of sin is the torah/law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

                          the torah/law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

                          we are delivered from the torah/law- Romans 7:6

                          we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter of the torah/law- Romans 7:6
                          1Peter 3:15
                          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Torah is not the entire OT, just the first five books.

                            The Bible contains words from God, but they aren't The Word, Jesus.

                            You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your post
                            I think you are reading way to much into what he's saying. He never said that the Torah isn't Scripture... He said that the Pharisees thought that the words of the Old Testament could bring salvation, but instead the words of the OT (including the Torah) pointed to The Word, who is Jesus, for salvation.

                            He's trying to tell you that The Word (Jesus) is not the same thing as the word (the Bible).
                            To This Day

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                              The Torah as you define it is in what you call the OT. I do not think the Torah can save anyone as I agree with you. I to believe that Jesus is the way, truth, and the life. However, we differ on how to view Scripture in its embodment as a whole. I actually believe that Paul meant all Scripture was inspired (God breathe) by God. Nothing can be subtracted to it or added to it as stated in the book of Revelations.
                              No. I define the Torah as the first 5 books. The scriptures include the Torah. It was a big focus of the Pharisees. But Jesus is not the bible.

                              How can you say Torah is a shadow of things to come and not pay attention to what the shadow is reflected off of. How can you separate God's word into separate elements when God is His Word. Just like you are suppose to reflect your own word. Nah, I think you missed the message within the post. You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your post. If Torah is indeed Scripture then its manner of treatment is the same as the whole body of Scripture, since it refers to a whole person.
                              We can deal with that in a minute. But the point needs to be made, the Torah is not God. The bible is not God. It is some of God's recorded words. But God is much bigger than the Torah and the rest of the scriptures.

                              As for the shadows, take that up with the Hebrew writer and Paul. Both taught that we no longer live by the letter. No way around that one. We live by the Spirit of the law not the letter.

                              The Torah is scripture. We learn from it and learn about the Spirit of the Law. How are we to know how to sacrifice without reading the Torah? But what is sacrificed today is different than what was sacrificed then. We don't offer sin sacrifices nor would we if the temple still existed. Instead we offer our body a living sacrifice. We also offer a sacrifice of praise. We can also use the Torah to learn of our priestly duties to the heavenly tabernacle. But it is all in spirit and not in letter.

                              Before we continue further... the Torah is not God.
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment

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