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  • What makes people gay

    (I still believe that Jesus was crucified for all our sins and diseases.)

    But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (Isa 53:5)


    Are gay people born, or are they made?

    The debate has raged since, well, since Oscar Wilde rubbed polite society's face in it.
    Now, the world's largest study of twins has finally settled the matter: homosexual behaviour is neither a result of nature, nor a result of nurture: it's a result of a combination of factors. And there's nothing your mother could do to change that. AdvertisementWriting in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behaviour, researchers from Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm report that both genetics and environmental factors (which are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb), are important determinants of homosexual behaviour.

    http://www.health24.com/news/Sexuality/1-944,47036.asp

    my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

    If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

    Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Roelof View Post
    (I still believe that Jesus was crucified for all our sins and diseases.)

    But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (Isa 53:5)


    Are gay people born, or are they made?

    The debate has raged since, well, since Oscar Wilde rubbed polite society's face in it.
    Now, the world's largest study of twins has finally settled the matter: homosexual behaviour is neither a result of nature, nor a result of nurture: it's a result of a combination of factors. And there's nothing your mother could do to change that. AdvertisementWriting in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behaviour, researchers from Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm report that both genetics and environmental factors (which are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb), are important determinants of homosexual behaviour.

    http://www.health24.com/news/Sexuality/1-944,47036.asp

    It may be possible that biological factors could play a part in predisposing someone to chose homosexual love. Over production of estrogen and minimal production of testosterone can creat some confusing emotions and physical manifestations. But, I'm no biologist. Millennia of the ravages of sin can have a biological effect.

    The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

    Comment


    • #3
      The bottom line is that it's a choice--all of us are predisposed to sin-it's in our nature-but we choose.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think it is precisely because the cause differs from person to person, not just of homosexuality but gender confusion and transexuality, we can't as a community just make some blanket statement telling everyone to "go hetero".

        The cause of these impulses and behaviors differs with each person.
        So should our witness.
        Before saying ANYTHING, each of us should do what is necessary for them to open up and tell their story.

        Only THEN are we capable of witnessing, because until then we're just shooting in the dark.


        Example:
        A few months ago, I met a lady with whom I became friends.
        (At the time, I couldn't tell she wasn't born female)

        Basically, she had been the only boy in a family of 8, raised by her aunts...as a girl.
        She grew up wearing dresses, makeup, etc., and because she'd never known anything else, didn't know it was unusual for a boy to dress that way.
        As a result, when "she" became an adult, and so many people were just yelling cliches at her ("you're an abomination!" "f**s go to hell!" etc) but without showing her any love or giving any real answers...she ended up getting a sex-change surgery to make her upbringing her adult life.

        Not one of us (Christians) reached out to her.
        Not one of us LISTENED and showed compassion.

        As a result, she is now physically what she was forced to be psychologically by her aunts as a child.
        Always give God credit first.

        "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
        -Sir Toby, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare

        James 1:19

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
          The bottom line is that it's a choice--all of us are predisposed to sin-it's in our nature-but we choose.
          The actions yes, the compulsions, no.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
            The actions yes, the compulsions, no.
            This is true.

            There is no question that there is a genetic predisposition in many homosexuals. One source I read not long ago stated that about 3-4% of the population is homosexual, and about half of those had genetic predispositions. The rest were gay because of other factors. In essence, it is kind of like a sliding scale; some predispositions are so strong that the individual will have homosexual compulsions regardless of environment; in some, it is weak, and the environment will play a significant role.

            Homosexuality isn't the only predisposed behavior. We are predisposed to assertiveness, shyness, depression, aggressiveness, and many other things. Some people are predisposed to have a very strong sex drive; some weak. It is not our predispositions, our compulsions, that lead us away from God, it is our actions. All of us must, at some point, turn away from the "thorns in our flesh" and choose to do the right thing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by crawfish View Post
              This is true.

              Homosexuality isn't the only predisposed behavior. We are predisposed to assertiveness, shyness, depression, aggressiveness, and many other things. Some people are predisposed to have a very strong sex drive; some weak. It is not our predispositions, our compulsions, that lead us away from God, it is our actions. All of us must, at some point, turn away from the "thorns in our flesh" and choose to do the right thing.
              I don't think there is a comparison between homosexuality and assertiveness. But I think I get your point. Your saying that no matter what we feel, we are responsable for what we do with those feelings. Wright?

              This issue is something that speaks to a mans sexuality. Lesbians, being women, live by a very different set of 'issues' regarding their struggle. Ultimately, I think men chose homosexuality out of contempt for their own sexuality, the way God made them. If it is true that we are created in God's image (and we are), than we, men and women, were made to reflect something unique about God that the other sex does not/ cannot. Male and female He made them. Homosexuality is shaking a fist at God and saying "I will not be a man! How dare you make me a man!?"

              We all have struggles, but ultimately, they originate from a contempt for God and who he has made us.

              The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Scubadude View Post
                I don't think there is a comparison between homosexuality and assertiveness. But I think I get your point. Your saying that no matter what we feel, we are responsable for what we do with those feelings. Wright?

                This issue is something that speaks to a mans sexuality. Lesbians, being women, live by a very different set of 'issues' regarding their struggle. Ultimately, I think men chose homosexuality out of contempt for their own sexuality, the way God made them. If it is true that we are created in God's image (and we are), than we, men and women, were made to reflect something unique about God that the other sex does not/ cannot. Male and female He made them. Homosexuality is shaking a fist at God and saying "I will not be a man! How dare you make me a man!?"

                We all have struggles, but ultimately, they originate from a contempt for God and who he has made us.
                Understand that "predisposed" doesn't mean that the individual will actually have the compulsion. It just makes the individual more likely to respond to their environment in a way that will produce the compulsion. Two brothers could grow up in the exact same environment with the exact same stimuli, and one turn out straight and the other gay. Because of their predispositions they responded to the environment differently.

                The danger we Christians have had with denying predispositions is thinking that we can "cure" individuals of things like homosexuality. Like we can treat them and they'll no longer be attracted to the same sex. This does a huge disservice to the individual, as they will probably feel the compulsions their entire lives, never getting away form them. They would be better served to be told that it will be a constant struggle and they need to lean on God for support.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by crawfish View Post

                  The danger we Christians have had with denying predispositions is thinking that we can "cure" individuals of things like homosexuality. Like we can treat them and they'll no longer be attracted to the same sex. This does a huge disservice to the individual, as they will probably feel the compulsions their entire lives, never getting away form them. They would be better served to be told that it will be a constant struggle and they need to lean on God for support.
                  You don't know that. A man who struggles with lust, hatred, lying, theft, adultery can find healing and significant change. Not only that, his weakness can become a powerful strength. Don't buy into the AA model of life, once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. Their is healing, and some struggles change over time. We can't "cure" anyone of anything, but homosexuality can be repented of.

                  The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Having met many Ho*o's in prisons (as a member of Prison Fellowship) and encouraging them to talk of their lives, I'm convinced the majority of males became H as a result of that kind of abuse as young boys or curiosity - females? because either they have never grown up out of the 'crush' stage most teenagers grow out of, or a desire to dominate.

                    Sin, however can be repented of and Forgiven by God

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Frances View Post
                      Having met many Ho*o's in prisons (as a member of Prison Fellowship) and encouraging them to talk of their lives, I'm convinced the majority of males became H as a result of that kind of abuse as young boys or curiosity - females? because either they have never grown up out of the 'crush' stage most teenagers grow out of, or a desire to dominate.
                      Women become gay because they haven't grown up? Are you saying most women are homosexual as teenagers?

                      The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                        The actions yes, the compulsions, no.
                        Thats not true, "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed." I dont think one could blame it on sin nature either, since Rom 1 talks about how this sin is against nature. I struggle with many sins but lusting after another guy walking down the street isn't one of them because burning in lust toward a member of the same sex is not a natural thing.

                        Does anyone have a link to a publication the study or the data itself, its kind of hard for me to make sense of their thinking in the article?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
                          I think it is precisely because the cause differs from person to person, not just of homosexuality but gender confusion and transexuality, we can't as a community just make some blanket statement telling everyone to "go hetero".

                          The cause of these impulses and behaviors differs with each person.
                          So should our witness.
                          Before saying ANYTHING, each of us should do what is necessary for them to open up and tell their story.

                          Only THEN are we capable of witnessing, because until then we're just shooting in the dark.


                          Example:
                          A few months ago, I met a lady with whom I became friends.
                          (At the time, I couldn't tell she wasn't born female)

                          Basically, she had been the only boy in a family of 8, raised by her aunts...as a girl.
                          She grew up wearing dresses, makeup, etc., and because she'd never known anything else, didn't know it was unusual for a boy to dress that way.
                          As a result, when "she" became an adult, and so many people were just yelling cliches at her ("you're an abomination!" "f**s go to hell!" etc) but without showing her any love or giving any real answers...she ended up getting a sex-change surgery to make her upbringing her adult life.

                          Not one of us (Christians) reached out to her.
                          Not one of us LISTENED and showed compassion.

                          As a result, she is now physically what she was forced to be psychologically by her aunts as a child.
                          Is this a true story? I don't see how it would be possible for this to happen unless the aunt never let him out of the house or watch TV...or see a book or magazine where it shows boys dressed as boys. She would have had to keep him literally locked up. He couldn't have gone to school because he would have seen other boys dressed as boys, and kids learn pretty quickly why they are physically different from each other usually BEFORE they start school. I mean even if he went to school thinking he was a she....he would have figured out at a young age he didn't have the right parts to be a girl. And when health class came it really would have been confronted! Not too mention doctor check ups....the aunt couldn't hide his gender from the doctor for sure! I don't know if you were just trying to make a point or if this was suppose to be true or not... I just don't see how it could be true...

                          I do agree with the point you are making...negative judging before we know anything helps no one...


                          God bless
                          "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scubadude View Post
                            You don't know that. A man who struggles with lust, hatred, lying, theft, adultery can find healing and significant change. Not only that, his weakness can become a powerful strength. Don't buy into the AA model of life, once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. Their is healing, and some struggles change over time. We can't "cure" anyone of anything, but homosexuality can be repented of.
                            Huh? "Reptented of" and "cured" are two separate things entirely. The former implies that one admits one's sin and commits to leave that life. The latter implies that the compulsion to sin is no longer there.

                            The deeper implication behind "cured" is that the individual will never be tempted to re-enter the lifestyle again. That is just wrong. Too many "cured homosexuals" have lapsed back into their behavior, and it's because rather than admitting that this compulsion was a part of them, they deluded themselves to think it was gone.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by light bread View Post
                              Thats not true, "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed." I dont think one could blame it on sin nature either, since Rom 1 talks about how this sin is against nature. I struggle with many sins but lusting after another guy walking down the street isn't one of them because burning in lust toward a member of the same sex is not a natural thing.

                              Does anyone have a link to a publication the study or the data itself, its kind of hard for me to make sense of their thinking in the article?
                              Yea I would like to see it too...the thing is twin studies have been done before on this same issue and they were badly flawed.

                              http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2553

                              BAILEY AND PILLARD—
                              THE FAMOUS “TWINS” STUDY

                              One of the most frequently cited studies used in promoting the genetics of sexual orientation is a 1952 study by Kallmann. In this famous work, he reported a concordance rate (or genetic association) of 100% for sexual orientation among monozygotic (identical) twins (1952, 115:283). This result, if true, would prove nearly insurmountable for those people who doubt the biological causation of homosexuality. However, Kallmann subsequently conjectured that this perfect concordance was an artifact, possibly due to the fact that his sample was drawn largely from mentally ill and institutionalized men (see Rainer, et al., 1960, 22:259). But Kallmann’s research opened the door to twin studies in regard to sexual orientation.

                              Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard, researchers at Northwestern University and the Boston University School of Medicine, carried out a similar experiment, examining 56 pairs of identical twins, 54 pairs of fraternal twins, 142 non-twin brothers of twins, and 57 pairs of adoptive brothers (1991, 48:1089-1096). Bailey and Pillard were looking to see if homosexuality was passed on through familial lines, or if one could point to environmental factors as the cause. Their hypothesis: if homosexuality is an inherited trait, then more twin brothers would be expected to have the same orientation than non-twin or non-biological brothers.

                              Their Reported Findings

                              * 52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were homosexual
                              * 22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
                              * 11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were homosexual
                              * 9.2% of non-twin biological siblings reported homosexual orientations (Bailey and Pillard, 1991, “A Genetic Study of Male Sexual Orientation”)
                              * 48% of identical twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual
                              * 16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
                              * 6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (Bailey and Benishay, 1993, “Familial Aggregation of Female Sexual Orientation”)

                              Problems with Bailey and Pillard’s Study

                              While the authors acknowledged some of the flaws with their research, they still were quoted in Science News as saying: “Our research shows that male sexual orientation is substantially genetic” (as quoted in Bower, 1992, 141:6). However, the most glaring observation is that clearly not 100% of the identical twins “inherited” homosexuality. If there was, in fact, a “gay gene,” then all of the identical twins should have reported a homosexual orientation. And yet, in nearly half of the twins studied, one brother was not homosexual. In a technical-comment letter in Science, Neil Risch and colleagues pointed out: “The biological brothers and adoptive brothers showed approximately the same rates. This latter observation suggests that there is no genetic component, but rather an environmental component shared in families” (1993, 262:2063). In fact, more adoptive brothers shared homosexuality than non-twin biological brothers. If there was a genetic factor, this result would be counter to the expected trend. Byne and Parsons noted:

                              However, the concordance rate for homosexuality in nontwin biologic brothers was only 9.2—significantly lower than that required by simple genetic hypothesis, which, on the basis of shared genetic material, would predict similar concordance rates for DZ [dizygotic] twins and nontwin biologic brothers. Furthermore, the fact that the concordance rates were similar for nontwin biologic brothers (9.2%) and genetically unrelated adoptive brothers (11.0%) is at odds with a simple genetic hypothesis, which would predict a higher concordance rate for biological siblings (1993, 50:229).

                              A more recently published twin study failed to find similar concordance rates. King and McDonald studied 46 homosexual men and women who were twins. The concordance rates that they reported were 10%, or 25% with monozygotic twins—depending on whether or not the bisexuals were included along with the homosexuals. The rates for dizygotic twins were 8% or 12%, again, depending on whether bisexuals were included (King and McDonald, 1992). Byne and Parsons commented: “These rates are significantly lower than those reported by Bailey and Pillard; in comparison of the MZ [monozygotic] concordance rate, including bisexuals (25%), with the comparable figure from Bailey and Pillard (52%)” (p. 230). They went on to observe: “Furthermore, if the concordance rate is similar for MZ and DZ twins, the importance of genetic factors would be considerably less than that suggested by Bailey and Pillard” (p. 230, emp. added). (more at the link)

                              God bless
                              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                              Comment

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