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  • Discussion What is a woman's role in the church?

    I was reading some of 1 Corinthians today and I stumbled across this portion in chapter 14 :

    "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

    etc etc.

    I know 1 Timothy 2:11-12 says about the same thing,

    "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

    Now, I am definitely NOT the macho type. I am a Godly man who fears the LORD as a result of His grace, and if I had a wife the last thing I would want to do is keep her silent and make her fear me because "I'm the head and you're not". I respect that position, and I would remind my wife...but to have a woman remain silent in church?

    So that basically means no women pastors, right? But yet speakers like Joyce Meyer are a tremendous blessing in my life.


    I just had a wonderful time with the Lord tonight so I don't have any dispute - whatever He says goes. But I'm just curious if this could mean anything else and how it would apply today. It just seems a little harsh to me is all. Kinda conflicting with my spirit as God says He will pour out His spirit on ALL flesh

  • #2
    I have read and heard from many pastors of many denominations that back then when they went to church the women sat in another area and would ask their husbands questions disrupting the service..so in this Paul was talking about a specific problem within that time and church..Also there are many NT women that worked with Paul....That being said I don't like being in a church with a woman pastor but I like Joyce Meyer and I am a woman

    Comment


    • #3
      So Ashley would you say that this would pertain for today? How would we apply it? I don't think one ounce of scripture can be tossed out the window, so I'm sure we'd have to apply it in one way or another.

      Comment


      • #4
        I may not be understanding what you are asking me..its lol 3 AM here but I am sure God still doesn't want women yelling in the church asking questions and messing up the service. If you mean is it OK to still have women speak in the church yes...if you mean pastors I think..again I am tired ...that one was in the Bible and it said LET HIM be the husband of ONE woman.. so for me a woman pastor no...to read and teach yes

        Comment


        • #5
          http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/

          A PDF I found very helpful and interesting.

          I think it would be incredibly wrong to say women can't teach or lead altogether, when Paul himself directly speaks of multiple women teachers and leaders. Just a quick read of Romans 16 shows as much:

          1. Phoebe, whom Paul calls a deacon
          2. Priscilla, whom he mentions before he mentions her husband Aquila
          3. Mary, a hard worker
          4. Junia, whom he calls an apostle
          5. Tryphena, "the Lord's worker"
          6. Tryphosa, "the Lord's worker"

          Elsewhere he mentions Chloe, who leads a house-church.

          To say Paul completely disallowed women from teaching or leading isn't consistent with the rest of his letters. Many secular scholars believe 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul, and that the passage in 1 Corinthians was added into the text by a later writer who was influenced by 2 Timothy... but if we maintain that the passage in 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy are both genuinely from Paul and are of inspiration from God, then we have to reconcile Paul's apparent distaste for women leaders in those two epistles with his praises for them in other epistles. Which is where I think the PDF I linked to above comes in handy.
          To This Day

          Comment


          • #6
            I'll get around to it tomorrow, but if you look to the Greek it doesn't call for them to be "silent" as in never talking or teaching. It does, however, forbid female authority within the church (at least over a man). For some reason, God has a certain economy that we are called to follow. It doesn't, however, prevent women from teaching or working or even sharing the Gospel.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
              I'll get around to it tomorrow, but if you look to the Greek it doesn't call for them to be "silent" as in never talking or teaching. It does, however, forbid female authority within the church (at least over a man). For some reason, God has a certain economy that we are called to follow. It doesn't, however, prevent women from teaching or working or even sharing the Gospel.
              Both of these (the word for "silent" and the word for "authority") are mentioned in the PDF I linked to above.
              To This Day

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by markedward View Post
                Both of these (the word for "silent" and the word for "authority") are mentioned in the PDF I linked to above.
                I figured so and intend to read it, but I tend to trust my own study of the Greek sometimes (at least in validating what someone says). I'm a skeptic at heart, so if someone claims something - even if I agree with it - I find myself questioning it and researching it.

                However, in a cursory read I can already see he's made a mistake. He attempts to attribute the Attic (Classical) understanding of a Greek word to it's Koine understanding. Looks like a fast and loose way of dealing with it.

                I'll deal with it more tomorrow when I'm not so groggy (hopefully).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/

                  A PDF I found very helpful and interesting.

                  I think it would be incredibly wrong to say women can't teach or lead altogether, when Paul himself directly speaks of multiple women teachers and leaders. Just a quick read of Romans 16 shows as much:

                  1. Phoebe, whom Paul calls a deacon
                  2. Priscilla, whom he mentions before he mentions her husband Aquila
                  3. Mary, a hard worker
                  4. Junia, whom he calls an apostle
                  5. Tryphena, "the Lord's worker"
                  6. Tryphosa, "the Lord's worker"

                  Elsewhere he mentions Chloe, who leads a house-church.

                  To say Paul completely disallowed women from teaching or leading isn't consistent with the rest of his letters. Many secular scholars believe 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul, and that the passage in 1 Corinthians was added into the text by a later writer who was influenced by 2 Timothy... but if we maintain that the passage in 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy are both genuinely from Paul and are of inspiration from God, then we have to reconcile Paul's apparent distaste for women leaders in those two epistles with his praises for them in other epistles. Which is where I think the PDF I linked to above comes in handy.

                  So if I understand this PDF right,

                  Women should be of sound minds, with open ears and wisdom-thirsty hearts so that they may not be deceived as Eve was, thus drawn away into sin. But yet since the man is the head of the wife, he should be teaching her because wisdom is imparted to him.

                  Right? Wrong? it still doesn't clarify it completely it seems. So should a woman teach at all?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have chosen to not contribute to this thread after all. I know that this topic becomes heated, gets personal, and eventually all goes to waste.

                    I will say that I read the article and was less than convinced. He is misapplying certain translation principles in the text (such as appealing to Classical Greek to explain a Koine Greek understanding) and that the Greek word for "exerting authority" does not mean "in an illicit manner," but simply exerting authority that has not been given. From the context of the passage, it shows that God simply hasn't given such authority to women in general.

                    Finally, before anyone says, "But it's chauvinistic to say only men can be leaders," this assumes two things:

                    (1) That God is an equal opportunity employer and cares about fairness

                    and (less jokingly than before)

                    (2) Having authority makes someone more important than the other.

                    Is a pastor higher than a father or a mother? Is a pastor more important than a baseball coach? Is a pastor more important than an educator? If we say yes, then we have bought into what Os Guinness calls "The Catholic distinction" which is Platonic, dividing the spiritual and physical and placing "spiritual" jobs over "physical" jobs.

                    If, however, the vocation of a pastor is on equal footing with all other vocations in terms of importance, then females being unable to be pastors wouldn't devalue the in any manner or equate them to being "lower" than males. It would simply mean there is a vocation they are not qualified for - much like men aren't qualified to be mothers (they lack the proper tools).

                    Though I said I wouldn't get involved, I guess I just did. Regardless, I probably won't respond unless asked to clarify.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                      I'll get around to it tomorrow, but if you look to the Greek it doesn't call for them to be "silent" as in never talking or teaching. It does, however, forbid female authority within the church (at least over a man). For some reason, God has a certain economy that we are called to follow. It doesn't, however, prevent women from teaching or working or even sharing the Gospel.
                      Amen. God set up the program and we are to just follow it.

                      The reason is that women are easily deceived because we are emotional. I'm a woman and I know this to be true.

                      "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." I Timothy 2:12-14

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                        Amen. God set up the program and we are to just follow it.

                        The reason is that women are easily deceived because we are emotional. I'm a woman and I know this to be true.

                        "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." I Timothy 2:12-14

                        Is that of the physical or spiritual? Her flesh won out over her spirit.

                        Honestly, there is so much more to the issue of women in the church for us to see and realize to understand the Godly order of things.

                        Clearly, as seen in 1 Timothy 2 and the following:

                        1 Timothy 3
                        1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

                        2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
                        3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
                        4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
                        5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
                        6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
                        7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
                        8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
                        9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
                        10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
                        11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.
                        Firstly, we could take men as meaning humanity, but when it specifically states that the man can only have one wife. Overseers, leaders of the flock, ought to be men. Ditto for deacons, or the assitant or "right hand man" of the overseer.

                        But then comes verse 11 which many take as women are included and it is switched up and twisted to be understood as "a woman of one husband, etc.". It doesn't say any such thing, and if Paul were going to be so specific about the men why would he not lay it out as plainly as he did for them? Women ought not to lead a church as a whole in any capacity.

                        The order of things must be understood, which does not change.

                        Genesis 2
                        18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

                        19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
                        20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
                        21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
                        22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
                        23The man said,
                        "This is now bone of my bones,
                        And flesh of my flesh;
                        She shall be called Woman,
                        Because she was taken out of Man." 24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
                        1 Corinthians 11

                        7For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
                        8For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
                        9for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
                        10Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
                        11However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
                        The Godly order of things is as such: God being over Christ, Christ the covering for man, man the covering for women, with women being submissive to the ordained order, or propriety, of God and thus being submissive to all.

                        Women in the Jewish culture were strong people, having and raising children, handling the affairs of the household, keeping the "cogs" in place and running smoothly as is said in Proverbs 31. As it says man and woman are far from independent of each other but dependent on each others existence. Women are to teach the younger women and children, they also receive gifts of the Spirit. Women who do their part to allow their husband to be a Godly man are doing a great thing!
                        Women in Christ are strong women, but they were not created to shepherd a flock. They were designed to be a helpmate, with purpose in their place within the Godly order of things.
                        Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                        Not second or third, but first.
                        Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                        when He is the source of all hope,
                        when His love is received and freely given,
                        holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                        will all other things be added unto to you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Like homosexuality, divorce, creation/ evolution and a few other topics people get very heated - including ME at times.

                          We can NOT ignore the teaching given to us in the bible which is given by GOD via the men who wrote it. (inspired).

                          Homosexuality is wrong
                          Divorce in most cases, perhaps all?, is wrong.
                          Creation/ Evolution - we can only go as far as the bible says, and then there should be no speculation or debate - this is the start of sin.

                          The bible says what it does and we can either look for loop holes, say times have changed - so we will follow satan's world rather than the Word of God/ bible.

                          However the Law/ instructions of God/ Jesus must be seen and applied with LOVE. Maturity and bible knowledge comes in here too. Some grow quickly and mature in the Word and applying it, others grow very slowly as we see in the early churches in the New Testament.

                          NEVER stop from pointing people to what God says to all of us believers in the bible. But encourage and help people accept that it is written to help the person, all of us, not critise or lay a heavy burden on them. May our love for eachother help us grow in faith. Love Paul/ Servant of Truth.
                          1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                          Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

                          KJV

                          May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JesusMySavior View Post
                            So if I understand this PDF right,

                            Women should be of sound minds, with open ears and wisdom-thirsty hearts so that they may not be deceived as Eve was, thus drawn away into sin. But yet since the man is the head of the wife, he should be teaching her because wisdom is imparted to him.

                            Right? Wrong? it still doesn't clarify it completely it seems. So should a woman teach at all?

                            And what about men who don't go to church and read their bibles?
                            I think as women we are to edify and encourage fellow women but
                            not to head the men in the church. In my home I'm the spiritual
                            leader in a sense for now so all of the learning/ teaching is done
                            through me.
                            ***
                            My memory is nearly gone;
                            but I remember two things;
                            That I am a great sinner, and
                            that Christ is a great Saviour.
                            John Newton (1725-1807)
                            English minister and hymn writer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I believe that women should be able to do the same things that men do. Including being pastors , bishops and rebrents. I know that the Bible writters were very male shovenists, but they were from a different culture. I do realize that this is an extremily controversial subject. But not for me.

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