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  • Where are the Apostles and Prophets

    Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?

    This is a question I have had since I was a little child and no one has given me an adequate answer besides my current pastor. However, I would like to know if others have this same questions or maybe know the answer.


    Eph 4: 11-16 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

    I could be wrong, but the body is missing some of its parts. I do not see these offices out front leading the body in the commission. Maybe it is not visible enough for me to see. I have actually looked and researched. Who has God called to these offices?

    Apostle (Apostolos)- a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
    i.e. Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, Peter, John
    2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

    Prophet (Prophetes)- an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
    i.e. Agabus, Silas, Judas
    Ac 21:10 - And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'

    Evangelist (Euaggelistes)- a bringer of good tidings
    i.e. Timonthy, Titus, Mark
    2Ti 4:5 - But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    According to both Greek and Hebrew grammar, the most important subject of a sentence was place first in order. Hence the proper order for the chain of command would be apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teachers. All these denoting offices of specific elders and how they are suppose to function in the Body of Christ.


    Since my childhood I have notice a few things. The evangelist and prophets are subordinate to pastors presently. Pastors presently supervise and command prophets and evangelist. In the Scripture, evangelist and prophets supervised and command the pastors. The evangelist and prophets only had to answer to apostles. This is what I mean by true prophets and evangelist, those that are in their proper place in the chain of command.

    Timothy and Titus were evangelists under the supervision of the apostle Paul who were ordered to set up pastors and deacons within local churches. They were then commanded to set the local church structure and supervise their initial development. At no time in the Scripture were the evangelist, prophets, and apostles subordinated to the pastors and teachers.

    The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

    I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet. Today, bold and committed apostles and prophets would encounter some large degree of opposition, rebellion, and skepticism from some believers.


    Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions?
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

  • #2
    I think they are still in operation. However, I'm not sure I see much of an apostle in many today who are saying, "Hey . . . look at me I'm an apostle!"

    Many are operating in the office of an apostle and they just aren't bragging about it.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

    Comment


    • #3
      The apostles and prophets are still here and they are used.. but like usual when they are moved to Proclaim..... they are most often resented, stoned literally or verbally, and scorned and mocked... and falsely accused....

      How do you determine what the Body of Christ is? is it a politicial, religous huge organization defined by divisions and brick and wood? Maybe one should start there? the definition...

      Also.. its very evident that the one who sowed the bad seed or tares has been flourishing quite well ... you can see that by the amount of false doctrine that is out there and the wide acceptance of it..


      Paul states that most often apostles are set forth as a spectacle unto the world, to men and to angels... Spectacle means to be set forth in public and to be made sport of.. exibited or gazed at...

      No matter how bad the darkness gets.. God is always in control and it doesnt surprise Him.. He will reserve unto Himself a 'remnant' that will not bow down to Baal or Baal worship..
      Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
      ------------------------------------------------
      Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
      ------------------------------------------------
      The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
      Jeremiah 31:3

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by manichunter View Post
        Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?

        This is a question I have had since I was a little child and no one has given me an adequate answer besides my current pastor. However, I would like to know if others have this same questions or maybe know the answer.


        Eph 4: 11-16 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

        I could be wrong, but the body is missing some of its parts. I do not see these offices out front leading the body in the commission. Maybe it is not visible enough for me to see. I have actually looked and researched. Who has God called to these offices?

        Apostle (Apostolos)- a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
        i.e. Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, Peter, John
        2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

        Prophet (Prophetes)- an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
        i.e. Agabus, Silas, Judas
        Ac 21:10 - And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'

        Evangelist (Euaggelistes)- a bringer of good tidings
        i.e. Timonthy, Titus, Mark
        2Ti 4:5 - But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

        According to both Greek and Hebrew grammar, the most important subject of a sentence was place first in order. Hence the proper order for the chain of command would be apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teachers. All these denoting offices of specific elders and how they are suppose to function in the Body of Christ.

        Since my childhood I have notice a few things. The evangelist and prophets are subordinate to pastors presently. Pastors presently supervise and command prophets and evangelist. In the Scripture, evangelist and prophets supervised and command the pastors. The evangelist and prophets only had to answer to apostles. This is what I mean by true prophets and evangelist, those that are in their proper place in the chain of command.

        Timothy and Titus were evangelists under the supervision of the apostle Paul who were ordered to set up pastors and deacons within local churches. They were then commanded to set the local church structure and supervise their initial development. At no time in the Scripture were the evangelist, prophets, and apostles subordinated to the pastors and teachers.

        The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

        I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet. Today, bold and committed apostles and prophets would encounter some large degree of opposition, rebellion, and skepticism from some believers.


        Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions?
        great post -- we are in the time of the later rain,

        and some apostles and prophets are just now casting the mote out of their own eye and counting the cost-- for there is no doubt as others were stoned so will they

        for god is angry - and he will send his messangers to deliver that message again - and many being told it will not like it and will accuse the messangers of many things

        but gods will will be done and not one of his will be pryed from his hand

        the early rain was began by christ then tapered off
        the later rain will begin slow and finish with christ

        he is alpha and omega

        for that time has now come

        Comment


        • #5
          We are in desperate need of discernment because most apostles, true and false are grilled on the internet.... That's what decieves many people about certain people and where many make false assumptions based on a critical spirit...

          The church needs government within it beginning with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers... no one is better than the other... one of the reasons the church has 'done away' with those is because many who have held that office have given in to pride and have been beheaded by critical spirits within the church when they fall... we often forget that apostles and prophets are human too and we need to hold them up...
          The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
            The apostles and prophets are still here and they are used.. but like usual when they are moved to Proclaim..... they are most often resented, stoned literally or verbally, and scorned and mocked... and falsely accused....

            How do you determine what the Body of Christ is? is it a politicial, religous huge organization defined by divisions and brick and wood? Maybe one should start there? the definition...

            Also.. its very evident that the one who sowed the bad seed or tares has been flourishing quite well ... you can see that by the amount of false doctrine that is out there and the wide acceptance of it..


            Paul states that most often apostles are set forth as a spectacle unto the world, to men and to angels... Spectacle means to be set forth in public and to be made sport of.. exibited or gazed at...

            No matter how bad it the darkness gets.. God is always in control and it doesnt surprise Him.. He will reserve unto Himself a 'remnant' that will not bow down to Baal or Baal worship..
            There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

            God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........
            Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

            www.woc-church.org

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by manichunter View Post
              There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

              God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........
              ahh yes he wants what may seem impossible to us,

              but we have the spirit and he will guide us

              and i know where of you speak

              we must be made ready first

              Comment


              • #8
                Don't want to be the fly in the ointment but.......

                ...apostles in the STRICT NT sense (I'm going to call them Apostles for the sake of ease) can't be around today for four reasons at least:-

                1. They had to have been an eyewitness to the resurrection/risen Christ (Acts 1:21-22, 10:41-42). So, unless you can point me to Scripture that contradicts me, Barnabas and Apollos were not Apostles. So it's impossible for anyone since the first century to have been an Apostle.

                2. They had a foundational ministry and therefore ceased to be needed once Scripture was complete (Eph 2:20).

                3. The simple fact of history is that the office has not existed since the first century - and every church/denomination has accepted this until about 100 years ago.

                4. It is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven and Earth who gives these gifts - if He WANTED apostles to exist in the church, He would have clearly called men in every era to fill that role! But because we have the Scriptures completed, there's no longer any need for them - so God doesn't call them!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                  There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

                  God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........

                  I'm very glad you have that strong desire for a higher calling.. not many want that. they want to be comfortable.. yes if called to a higher calling it does mean giving up things... it means sacrafice.. You will have to expect the unexpected and realize that He has placed that desire in you ... He will carry you thru and give wisdom in each situation....I gave it all up after He saved me... job, money, power, prestige....even my relationship with my fiance.... I was verbally stoned.. called crazy... mocked.. called an idiot.. and so on.. but what the world calls foolilshness God attributes to wisdom... His Words are real.. if any man desire to follow Him.. lay it all down and take up your Cross... When Christ walked with His Cross thru the streets of Jersualem... beaten to bloody pulp.. It wasnt fun.. railing, spit on , mocked... but it was all for One Purpose.. Salvation.. You must count the costs... this life is temporal.. but Eternal Life is forever and has no ending...
                  Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
                  Jeremiah 31:3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It also carries with it accountability.
                    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                      ...apostles in the STRICT NT sense (I'm going to call them Apostles for the sake of ease) can't be around today for four reasons at least:-

                      1. They had to have been an eyewitness to the resurrection/risen Christ (Acts 1:21-22, 10:41-42). So, unless you can point me to Scripture that contradicts me, Barnabas and Apollos were not Apostles. So it's impossible for anyone since the first century to have been an Apostle.
                      But Paul didn't see the resurrected Christ... he had to receive it by revelation

                      2. They had a foundational ministry and therefore ceased to be needed once Scripture was complete (Eph 2:20).
                      Till we all come to the unity of the faith says Ephesians 4, and this discussion is proof that we need both apostles and prophets.

                      3. The simple fact of history is that the office has not existed since the first century - and every church/denomination has accepted this until about 100 years ago.
                      then we need to repent and ask the Lord for guidance and let the Lord set people apart for the office

                      4. It is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven and Earth who gives these gifts - if He WANTED apostles to exist in the church, He would have clearly called men in every era to fill that role! But because we have the Scriptures completed, there's no longer any need for them - so God doesn't call them!
                      no the church has refused the Sovereign Lord's appointing because we stone them as soon as the Lord reveals them... We need them... the main reason that the church is falling to false doctrines is because we don't have apostles and prophets

                      Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
                      Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
                      Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

                      Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
                      Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
                      Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
                      The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
                        I'm very glad you have that strong desire for a higher calling.. not many want that. they want to be comfortable.. yes if called to a higher calling it does mean giving up things... it means sacrafice.. You will have to expect the unexpected and realize that He has placed that desire in you ... He will carry you thru and give wisdom in each situation....I gave it all up after He saved me... job, money, power, prestige....even my relationship with my fiance.... I was verbally stoned.. called crazy... mocked.. called an idiot.. and so on.. but what the world calls foolilshness God attributes to wisdom... His Words are real.. if any man desire to follow Him.. lay it all down and take up your Cross... When Christ walked with His Cross thru the streets of Jersualem... beaten to bloody pulp.. It wasnt fun.. railing, spit on , mocked... but it was all for One Purpose.. Salvation.. You must count the costs... this life is temporal.. but Eternal Life is forever and has no ending...
                        Indeed. I sense it also carries with it a greater accountability.
                        Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the problem is that we see so many 'false' apostles and 'false' prophets that we would rather just not deal with it because we're lazy and we don't want to deal with it and we have suffered as a church and as a body because of that gaping hole in the ministry of the Lord through those people...

                          the truth is Paul didn't see Jesus on earth resurected... he had to recieve the revelation by seeing the Lord... people can have this revelation today, but we are trained to doubt and when we are trained to doubt, our discernment goes down to zero and when there's no discernment you either become an emotional addict or a overly critical curmudgeon and either one is a very sad reality
                          The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                            Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?

                            I believe things probably a little more narrowly than you may.

                            • I believe all of the apostles are dead; died 1900 years ago or so.
                              (Apostle being specific title used to describe an eye-witness to the risen Lord Jesus)

                            • I believe there are no true prophets today either, because God has given us His Word the Bible, and the Holy Spirit to teach us in all understanding.

                            • There however, are many true evangelists with us today. Those who continue to take the gospel of Christ out into the fields ripe for the harvest, sharing the great commission with all whom they meet.


                            For me, when someone today says, "I'm an Apostle", or "I'm a Prophet" then immediately loose all credibility with me, and I think to myself, "Charlatan....what are you trying to pull? What's your angle here, and who are you going to mislead?"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              but David... Paul wasn't an eyewitness... but he was an apostle...
                              The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

                              Comment

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