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  • Baptism and salvation

    I wanted to post this in a thread that already existed, but I cannot find what I was looking for. So in a new thread it goes!

    THe article link is included from facebook. I am not sure how true the facts of this are, but the gist of it seems accurate based on what I could find through google. So... are these people saved or did the man waste the last moments of his life?

    https://www.facebook.com/td.hale.7/p...38485739636897

    The article, in full:

    "We all know the story of the Titanic, how on April 14, 1912 an iceberg scraped the ship’s starboard side, ripping open six watertight compartments and leading to the death of over 1500 people.

    On board the ship that night was John Harper and his much-beloved six-year-old daughter Nana. According to documented reports, as soon as it was apparent that the ship was going to sink, John Harper immediately took his daughter to a lifeboat. It is reasonable to assume that this widowed preacher could have easily gotten on board this boat to safety; however, it never seems to have crossed his mind. He bent down and kissed his precious little girl; looking into her eyes he told her that she would see him again someday. The flares going off in the dark sky above reflected the tears on his face as he turned and headed towards the crowd of desperate humanity on the sinking ocean liner. As the rear of the huge ship began to lurch upwards, it was reported that Harper was seen making his way up the deck yelling "Women, children and unsaved into the lifeboats!" It was only minutes later that the Titanic began to rumble deep within. Most people thought it was an explosion; actually the gargantuan ship was literally breaking in half. At this point, many people jumped off the decks and into the icy, dark waters below. John Harper was one of these people.

    That night 1528 people went into the frigid waters. John Harper was seen swimming frantically to people in the water leading them to Jesus before the hypothermia became fatal. Mr. Harper swam up to one young man who had climbed up on a piece of debris. Rev. Harper asked him between breaths, "Are you saved?" The young man replied that he was not.

    Harper then tried to lead him to Christ only to have the young man who was near shock, reply no. John Harper then took off his life jacket and threw it to the man and said "Here then, you need this more than I do..." and swam away to other people. A few minutes later Harper swam back to the young man and succeeded in leading him to salvation. Of the 1528 people that went into the water that night, six were rescued by the lifeboats. One of them was this young man on the debris. Four years later, at a survivors meeting, this young man stood up and in tears recounted how John Harper had led him to Christ. Mr. Harper had tried to swim back to help other people, yet because of the intense cold, had grown too weak to swim. His last words before going under in the frigid waters were "Believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Does Hollywood remember this man? No. Oh well, no matter. This servant of God did what he had to do. While other people were trying to buy their way onto the lifeboats and selfishly trying to save their own lives, John Harper gave up his life so that others could be saved.

    John Harper knew what it meant to live life with urgency.

    Four years after the sinking of the Titanic, a young Scotsman by the name of Aguilla Webb stood up in a meeting in Hamilton, Canada and gave the following testimony:

    “I am a survivor of the Titanic. When I was drifting alone on a spar that awful night, the tide brought Mr. John Harper of Glasgow, also on a piece of wreck, near me.
    ‘Man,’ he said, ‘Are you saved?’‘
    'No,’ I said, ‘I am not.’
    He replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.’
    The waves bore him away; but, strange to say brought him back a little later, and he said, ‘Are you saved now?’
    ‘No,’ I said, ‘I cannot honestly say that I am.’
    He said again, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,’ and shortly after he went down; and there, alone in the night, and with two miles of water under me, I believed. I am John Harper’s last convert.”

    Apparently God wanted Webb's amazing testimony to be shared, because only seven people were plucked from the icy water that night to join the survivors in the lifeboats. Webb was one of them."

    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  • #2
    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I wanted to post this in a thread that already existed, but I cannot find what I was looking for. So in a new thread it goes!

    THe article link is included from facebook. I am not sure how true the facts of this are, but the gist of it seems accurate based on what I could find through google. So... are these people saved or did the man waste the last moments of his life?

    https://www.facebook.com/td.hale.7/p...38485739636897

    The article, in full:
    >snip<

    Apparently God wanted Webb's amazing testimony to be shared, because only seven people were plucked from the icy water that night to join the survivors in the lifeboats. Webb was one of them."
    Greg Laurie raised this very story in one of the recorded pod-cast sermons last week. I was heading into work and I made a mental note to find this story and keep a ref/link to it. As with all "mental" notes... fall off by the wayside. Now, here it is... thanks brother!

    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
      I wanted to post this in a thread that already existed, but I cannot find what I was looking for. So in a new thread it goes!

      THe article link is included from facebook. I am not sure how true the facts of this are, but the gist of it seems accurate based on what I could find through google. So... are these people saved or did the man waste the last moments of his life?

      https://www.facebook.com/td.hale.7/p...38485739636897

      The article, in full:

      "We all know the story of the Titanic, how on April 14, 1912 an iceberg scraped the ship’s starboard side, ripping open six watertight compartments and leading to the death of over 1500 people.

      On board the ship that night was John Harper and his much-beloved six-year-old daughter Nana. According to documented reports, as soon as it was apparent that the ship was going to sink, John Harper immediately took his daughter to a lifeboat. It is reasonable to assume that this widowed preacher could have easily gotten on board this boat to safety; however, it never seems to have crossed his mind. He bent down and kissed his precious little girl; looking into her eyes he told her that she would see him again someday. The flares going off in the dark sky above reflected the tears on his face as he turned and headed towards the crowd of desperate humanity on the sinking ocean liner. As the rear of the huge ship began to lurch upwards, it was reported that Harper was seen making his way up the deck yelling "Women, children and unsaved into the lifeboats!" It was only minutes later that the Titanic began to rumble deep within. Most people thought it was an explosion; actually the gargantuan ship was literally breaking in half. At this point, many people jumped off the decks and into the icy, dark waters below. John Harper was one of these people.

      That night 1528 people went into the frigid waters. John Harper was seen swimming frantically to people in the water leading them to Jesus before the hypothermia became fatal. Mr. Harper swam up to one young man who had climbed up on a piece of debris. Rev. Harper asked him between breaths, "Are you saved?" The young man replied that he was not.

      Harper then tried to lead him to Christ only to have the young man who was near shock, reply no. John Harper then took off his life jacket and threw it to the man and said "Here then, you need this more than I do..." and swam away to other people. A few minutes later Harper swam back to the young man and succeeded in leading him to salvation. Of the 1528 people that went into the water that night, six were rescued by the lifeboats. One of them was this young man on the debris. Four years later, at a survivors meeting, this young man stood up and in tears recounted how John Harper had led him to Christ. Mr. Harper had tried to swim back to help other people, yet because of the intense cold, had grown too weak to swim. His last words before going under in the frigid waters were "Believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Does Hollywood remember this man? No. Oh well, no matter. This servant of God did what he had to do. While other people were trying to buy their way onto the lifeboats and selfishly trying to save their own lives, John Harper gave up his life so that others could be saved.

      John Harper knew what it meant to live life with urgency.

      Four years after the sinking of the Titanic, a young Scotsman by the name of Aguilla Webb stood up in a meeting in Hamilton, Canada and gave the following testimony:

      “I am a survivor of the Titanic. When I was drifting alone on a spar that awful night, the tide brought Mr. John Harper of Glasgow, also on a piece of wreck, near me.
      ‘Man,’ he said, ‘Are you saved?’‘
      'No,’ I said, ‘I am not.’
      He replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.’
      The waves bore him away; but, strange to say brought him back a little later, and he said, ‘Are you saved now?’
      ‘No,’ I said, ‘I cannot honestly say that I am.’
      He said again, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,’ and shortly after he went down; and there, alone in the night, and with two miles of water under me, I believed. I am John Harper’s last convert.”

      Apparently God wanted Webb's amazing testimony to be shared, because only seven people were plucked from the icy water that night to join the survivors in the lifeboats. Webb was one of them."
      =================================
      No earthling can answer that query.
      We can be guided however by God's word;.

      Repentance
      Baptism
      Righteous life ...
      is required.

      Many wish to think that under dire or unusual circumstances God will modify, reduce, alter or otherwise redact His commandments.....and He may. However, for one I would not rely on that interpretation of His word, clearly measured by His intent.

      God does work in mysterious ways. Amen.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by preston39 View Post

        =================================
        No earthling can answer that query.
        We can be guided however by God's word;.

        Repentance
        Baptism
        Righteous life ...
        is required.

        Many wish to think that under dire or unusual circumstances God will modify, reduce, alter or otherwise redact His commandments.....and He may. However, for one I would not rely on that interpretation of His word, clearly measured by His intent.

        God does work in mysterious ways. Amen.
        I concur. The narrative in the OP is moving, and if true, shows courage, fortitude and service to the Lord to the bitter end. But just like the malefactor on the cross next to our Lord Jesus, BAPTISM is not mentioned. The narrative of the OP does not says so, but Baptism is clearly missing. I judge the following to be the importance of Baptism:
        1. It is a COMMAND. Whether we understand it or not, we are obliged to be IMMERSED in water in the name of Jesus. Those who refuse it are rebels and will not enter the Kingdom when Christ returns (Matt.7:21-23)
        2. It is the ending of the old and the starting of the new. The earth was covered with water TWICE (Gen.1:2, 7:19-20). In both cases they were God's ending of the old (2nd Pet.3:5-7)
        3. It is the putting away of a sordid and corrupt past. Noah, Abraham and Israel must pass through "a flood" on the way to God's goal (Josh.24:,2, 14)
        4. It is the symbolic crucifixion of the flesh (Rom.6:3)
        5. It is the symbolic new start with power against sins ((Rom.6:4, 7-11)
        6. It guarantees that one will be resurrected like Christ (Rom. 6:5)
        7. It replaces circumcision (Col.2.11-12). If we are heirs to the Covenant made with Abraham (Gal.3:29) then we need to fulfill our side of the Covenant
        8. It clears the conscience in order to serve Christ (1st Pet.3:20-21)
        9. It is the qualification for "ENTERING" the Millennial Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
        10. It is the qualification for receiving the outward giving of the Holy Spirit for service to the Lord (Act.2:38)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          I concur. The narrative in the OP is moving, and if true, shows courage, fortitude and service to the Lord to the bitter end. But just like the malefactor on the cross next to our Lord Jesus, BAPTISM is not mentioned. The narrative of the OP does not says so, but Baptism is clearly missing. I judge the following to be the importance of Baptism:
          1. It is a COMMAND. Whether we understand it or not, we are obliged to be IMMERSED in water in the name of Jesus. Those who refuse it are rebels and will not enter the Kingdom when Christ returns (Matt.7:21-23)
          2. It is the ending of the old and the starting of the new. The earth was covered with water TWICE (Gen.1:2, 7:19-20). In both cases they were God's ending of the old (2nd Pet.3:5-7)
          3. It is the putting away of a sordid and corrupt past. Noah, Abraham and Israel must pass through "a flood" on the way to God's goal (Josh.24:,2, 14)
          4. It is the symbolic crucifixion of the flesh (Rom.6:3)
          5. It is the symbolic new start with power against sins ((Rom.6:4, 7-11)
          6. It guarantees that one will be resurrected like Christ (Rom. 6:5)
          7. It replaces circumcision (Col.2.11-12). If we are heirs to the Covenant made with Abraham (Gal.3:29) then we need to fulfill our side of the Covenant
          8. It clears the conscience in order to serve Christ (1st Pet.3:20-21)
          9. It is the qualification for "ENTERING" the Millennial Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
          10. It is the qualification for receiving the outward giving of the Holy Spirit for service to the Lord (Act.2:38)
          Let me understand this.

          A person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior while at a rest stop along the highway. They had been listening to Christian radio and pulling off into the rest stop, surrendered over to Jesus. In joy of the Lord, they call their parents to inform them of surrendering over to Christ. Testifies of what convicted them while listening to the show on the radio and felt led to pull off into the rest stop and confess and repent before Jesus. The parents in their joy testify of how they've been interceding for their child over the years (even has the Intercessory team at their church praying too), and just earlier in the evening, felt led to pray earnestly for the salvation of their child.

          Then as they continue on their way home, a car avoids a deer, sideswipes this person who accepted Christ, causing them to crash... and they do not survive.

          Are you one to inform the parents that their child was NOT justified before God by Jesus? Just because they did not get baptized...
          Slug1--out

          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

            Let me understand this.

            A person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior while at a rest stop along the highway. They had been listening to Christian radio and pulling off into the rest stop, surrendered over to Jesus. In joy of the Lord, they call their parents to inform them of surrendering over to Christ. Testifies of what convicted them while listening to the show on the radio and felt led to pull off into the rest stop and confess and repent before Jesus. The parents in their joy testify of how they've been interceding for their child over the years (even has the Intercessory team at their church praying too), and just earlier in the evening, felt led to pray earnestly for the salvation of their child.

            Then as they continue on their way home, a car avoids a deer, sideswipes this person who accepted Christ, causing them to crash... and they do not survive.

            Are you one to inform the parents that their child was NOT justified before God by Jesus? Just because they did not get baptized...
            =========================

            Take that one to God. His commandments say what they say.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Walls View Post

              I concur. The narrative in the OP is moving, and if true, shows courage, fortitude and service to the Lord to the bitter end. But just like the malefactor on the cross next to our Lord Jesus, BAPTISM is not mentioned. The narrative of the OP does not says so, but Baptism is clearly missing. I judge the following to be the importance of Baptism:
              1. It is a COMMAND. Whether we understand it or not, we are obliged to be IMMERSED in water in the name of Jesus. Those who refuse it are rebels and will not enter the Kingdom when Christ returns (Matt.7:21-23)
              2. It is the ending of the old and the starting of the new. The earth was covered with water TWICE (Gen.1:2, 7:19-20). In both cases they were God's ending of the old (2nd Pet.3:5-7)
              3. It is the putting away of a sordid and corrupt past. Noah, Abraham and Israel must pass through "a flood" on the way to God's goal (Josh.24:,2, 14)
              4. It is the symbolic crucifixion of the flesh (Rom.6:3)
              5. It is the symbolic new start with power against sins ((Rom.6:4, 7-11)
              6. It guarantees that one will be resurrected like Christ (Rom. 6:5)
              7. It replaces circumcision (Col.2.11-12). If we are heirs to the Covenant made with Abraham (Gal.3:29) then we need to fulfill our side of the Covenant
              8. It clears the conscience in order to serve Christ (1st Pet.3:20-21)
              9. It is the qualification for "ENTERING" the Millennial Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
              10. It is the qualification for receiving the outward giving of the Holy Spirit for service to the Lord (Act.2:38)
              ===========================
              We don't know...... and that includes you whether the thief had been baptized or not...do we?
              He showed familiarity with Christ which suggest he had been a Christian and had fallen away.
              Additionally, God can grant special absolution as He wishes...can't He?

              That is a lot of ..ifs....to apply over clear scripture requiring baptism...I suggest.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by preston39 View Post

                =========================

                Take that one to God. His commandments say what they say.
                I don't have too. Jesus said to baptize people after He's justified them. Jesus redeems believers BEFORE man follows Jesus' commandment of baptizing a believer..
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by preston39 View Post

                  ===========================
                  We don't know...... and that includes you whether the thief had been baptized or not...do we?
                  He showed familiarity with Christ which suggest he had been a Christian and had fallen away.
                  Additionally, God can grant special absolution as He wishes...can't He?

                  That is a lot of ..ifs....to apply over clear scripture requiring baptism...I suggest.
                  There are a lot of Scriptures where God requires things that do not merit Salvation. Obedience is not always meriting Salvation. The only kind of obedience that merits Salvation is what Christ did to earn our Salvation.

                  Our obedience in the matter of choosing to believe and to embrace this Salvation is part of *obtaining* Salvation, but certainly does not *earn* it! You are confusing *obedience* with *earning Salvation.*

                  We obey God every day, but none of it earns Salvation. It is debatable how far Water Baptism was meant to go as a testimony following Salvation. But whenever it was done in obedience, it *never* earned Salvation.

                  Whether you believe Baptism is a requirement for all or for all time, you can *never* say it earns one's Salvation!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                    Let me understand this.

                    A person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior while at a rest stop along the highway. They had been listening to Christian radio and pulling off into the rest stop, surrendered over to Jesus. In joy of the Lord, they call their parents to inform them of surrendering over to Christ. Testifies of what convicted them while listening to the show on the radio and felt led to pull off into the rest stop and confess and repent before Jesus. The parents in their joy testify of how they've been interceding for their child over the years (even has the Intercessory team at their church praying too), and just earlier in the evening, felt led to pray earnestly for the salvation of their child.

                    Then as they continue on their way home, a car avoids a deer, sideswipes this person who accepted Christ, causing them to crash... and they do not survive.

                    Are you one to inform the parents that their child was NOT justified before God by Jesus? Just because they did not get baptized...
                    I gave TEN points as to why Baptism was important. NOT ONE contained the word, or concept, of JUSTIFICATION. May I ask you to rephrase your question. May I point out (in the friendliest way) that "JUSTIFIED" is a legal term that has to do with a Judge. And Acts 13:39 tells how we are justified before the Great Judge; "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by preston39 View Post

                      ===========================
                      We don't know...... and that includes you whether the thief had been baptized or not...do we?
                      He showed familiarity with Christ which suggest he had been a Christian and had fallen away.
                      Additionally, God can grant special absolution as He wishes...can't He?

                      That is a lot of ..ifs....to apply over clear scripture requiring baptism...I suggest.
                      I hear you. God may make an exception, like He did in the house of Cornelius (Acts Chapter 10). But the very word "exception" implies that there is a rule. The rule is;
                      1. Believe and Repent
                      2. Call on the Lord's name
                      3. Be Baptized
                      Up until the third hour on the cross (12 noon), BOTH malefactors cursed Jesus (Matt.27:44). The "turn" for one came after this. But what he "believed" was is in his words. He perceived Jesus as KING. He did not approach Jesus as Lamb. The malefactors were killed by the breaking of their legs before 6 p.m. There is no record of any Baptism between 12 noon and sunset for the man nailed to the cross until death by shock. There is no evidence of any exception made by God to His rule. I can't say much more.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Walls View Post

                        I hear you. God may make an exception, like He did in the house of Cornelius (Acts Chapter 10). But the very word "exception" implies that there is a rule. The rule is;
                        1. Believe and Repent
                        2. Call on the Lord's name
                        3. Be Baptized
                        Up until the third hour on the cross (12 noon), BOTH malefactors cursed Jesus (Matt.27:44). The "turn" for one came after this. But what he "believed" was is in his words. He perceived Jesus as KING. He did not approach Jesus as Lamb. The malefactors were killed by the breaking of their legs before 6 p.m. There is no record of any Baptism between 12 noon and sunset for the man nailed to the cross until death by shock. There is no evidence of any exception made by God to His rule. I can't say much more.
                        The thief was forgiven and is with Jesus in a place He prepared. I refer to it as heaven.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Walls View Post

                          I gave TEN points as to why Baptism was important. NOT ONE contained the word, or concept, of JUSTIFICATION. May I ask you to rephrase your question. May I point out (in the friendliest way) that "JUSTIFIED" is a legal term that has to do with a Judge. And Acts 13:39 tells how we are justified before the Great Judge; "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

                          Justification, Sanctification, Glorification... when does this all begin with Justification?

                          Or

                          In a simpler way to ask this... When is a person justified by Jesus Christ?
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post

                            I hear you. God may make an exception, like He did in the house of Cornelius (Acts Chapter 10). But the very word "exception" implies that there is a rule. The rule is;
                            1. Believe and Repent
                            2. Call on the Lord's name
                            3. Be Baptized
                            Up until the third hour on the cross (12 noon), BOTH malefactors cursed Jesus (Matt.27:44). The "turn" for one came after this. But what he "believed" was is in his words. He perceived Jesus as KING. He did not approach Jesus as Lamb. The malefactors were killed by the breaking of their legs before 6 p.m. There is no record of any Baptism between 12 noon and sunset for the man nailed to the cross until death by shock. There is no evidence of any exception made by God to His rule. I can't say much more.
                            Disagree. The jailer asked Paul what must he do to BE saved. The answer is "believe" unto Jesus and the jailer would be saved. The baptism is man's following Jesus' commend so that man visually represents the work that Christ did inside of them i.e. made them born-again (or justified/redeemed, etc). There is no better way for man to proclaim their belief in Christ and how He justified them (brought them from death to life), before God.
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Walls View Post

                              May I point out (in the friendliest way) that "JUSTIFIED" is a legal term that has to do with a Judge. And Acts 13:39 tells how we are justified before the Great Judge; "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
                              Go on... as in context :-)

                              Justification is, oh how best to say this in terms all can understand. Justification is being declared "righteous" before God and this happens the moment one believes unto Christ. I know Romans 3 has the scriptures.... stand by. God’s Righteousness Through Faith

                              21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Boasting Excluded

                              27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is [i]justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

                              There are more, you need them?
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment

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