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  • Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
    NO. Rom 6 and Col 2 refer to the moment when sin is removed. Yes, the audience in both is believers, but Paul is referring back to the moment in which their sins were removed by the Spirit in baptism.

    Notice that in Rom 6 Paul says that the listeners were baptized "into Christ". So they were not "in Christ" before they were baptized (you don't get "into Christ" through belief alone.
    Notice that in Col 2 Paul says that it is in baptism that our sins are removed by the circumcision of the Spirit. And that it is in baptism that we are resurrected like Christ was.

    Yes, it does. See the verses above.
    I think you are reading what is not stated INTO the texts.

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    • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

      Thanks for your candour. I concur that only God can decide who is saved and who isn't, ie who goes and doesn't enter into heaven. On the basis of our common agreement here, I have one more question for you. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he will be with him in paradise. The thief, unfortunately, did not get baptised after confessing Christ - so do you believe he was saved or not?
      Yes, I believe he is saved. If the Lord says he will be with Him, then I believe it. At least Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. No one else can take us into the kingdom except Christ.
      To God be the Glory

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      • Originally posted by angelmike View Post
        Yes, I believe he is saved. If the Lord says he will be with Him, then I believe it. At least Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. No one else can take us into the kingdom except Christ.
        Thank you.

        The scripture says that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, according to 1 Tim 2:4. And that truth is Christ. I have never advocated that one should willfully avoid water baptism after accepting Christ. I am just pointing out that there are circumstances when an atheist or one that has been dithering on accepting Christ, finally does wholeheartedly when faced with their mortality.

        Often this occurs at the time of death, thus living them no opportunity for water baptism. In such cases, I believe that the same Jesus that saved the thief without baptism will equally accept them that confess him before death.


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        • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

          You lost me when denied that those who accept Christ at the point of death are not saved. I will leave you to your beliefs. Remain blessed.
          Deathbed salvation is an invention of man that has no Biblical basis. It is nothing more than an attempt at trying to "prove" Luther's faith only while trying to discredit and undermine Bible verses that require water baptism. God requires men to believe, repent, confess and be baptozed and if one waits too late to do this then they have no one to blame but themselves. The Bible teaches TODAY is the day of salvation (Heb 3:15; 2 Corinthians 2:6) for no one is promised tomorrow (James 4:13-15). God's law of pardon does not change for those who wait too late. 2 Thess 1:8 in flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those who know not God and OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ. There can come a time when the door to salvation will be shut not to ever be opened for the unprepared Matt 25:10-13.

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          • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            I think you are reading what is not stated INTO the texts.
            You are welcome to think what you want. But I am reading what is in these texts (and others) into one consistent doctrine that takes all of Scripture into account. Now, if we could ignore Scriptures as we choose, and if we are to be judged by God based on what we like of His Word and not judged on the things we didn't like in His Word, then you might be justified in your belief. But since we are to be judged on what is in the Books (what is actually in the books, not what we think or like about it), then we must take ALL of what He says and apply it to our doctrine.

            Read those passages yourself and tell me what they each say about the importance of Baptism, please.

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            • Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
              You are welcome to think what you want. But I am reading what is in these texts (and others) into one consistent doctrine that takes all of Scripture into account. Now, if we could ignore Scriptures as we choose, and if we are to be judged by God based on what we like of His Word and not judged on the things we didn't like in His Word, then you might be justified in your belief. But since we are to be judged on what is in the Books (what is actually in the books, not what we think or like about it), then we must take ALL of what He says and apply it to our doctrine.

              Read those passages yourself and tell me what they each say about the importance of Baptism, please.
              Each to his own and my old Nan would say. If you believe you have properly interpreted the scripture, then so be it. I can only point out the truth, I don't have to force you to accept it.

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              • Originally posted by Ernest T Bass View Post
                Deathbed salvation is an invention of man that has no Biblical basis. It is nothing more than an attempt at trying to "prove" Luther's faith only while trying to discredit and undermine Bible verses that require water baptism. God requires men to believe, repent, confess and be baptozed and if one waits too late to do this then they have no one to blame but themselves. The Bible teaches TODAY is the day of salvation (Heb 3:15; 2 Corinthians 2:6) for no one is promised tomorrow (James 4:13-15). God's law of pardon does not change for those who wait too late. 2 Thess 1:8 in flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those who know not God and OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ. There can come a time when the door to salvation will be shut not to ever be opened for the unprepared Matt 25:10-13.
                I find it shocking that you deny a sound doctrine where the Lord himself saved a man who didn't have the time to be baptised.

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                • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                  Each to his own and my old Nan would say. If you believe you have properly interpreted the scripture, then so be it. I can only point out the truth, I don't have to force you to accept it.
                  Please, read the passages I referenced (Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-14) and tell me what relevance you see baptism playing in each of them.

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  I find it shocking that you deny a sound doctrine where the Lord himself saved a man who didn't have the time to be baptised.
                  And I find it shocking that you cannot see that the pronouncement of Jesus to this man occurred before the death of Jesus, so He could change His will (His Covenant) with this man in any way He chose. But at His death, His will was locked, and immutable.

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                  • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                    I find it shocking that you deny a sound doctrine where the Lord himself saved a man who didn't have the time to be baptised.
                    I find it shocking that men create for themselves their own "doctrine" as deathbed salvation or "faith only" that are not even taught in the Bible.

                    What if a non-Christan, never saved person was going to a Bible study. Yet crossing the street to the place he was going he was hit by a car and killed. If he had just had a little bit more time he would have come to hear the gospel and have faith (Rom 10:17) and be saved. Will you argue he will be saved anyway in his faithlessness simple because he didn't have enough time to have faith? If a deathbed can get rid of the necessity of water baptism then it can get rid of the necessity of even having faith at all.


                    The UNsound, UNbiblical idea of deathbed salvation is NOTHING more than an attempt to undermine the BIble's teaching that water baptism is essential while trying to promote the UNSOUND, UNbiblical ideas of Luther's faith onlyism.

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