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  • #46
    Originally posted by Walls View Post

    Why not give verses like I did in posting # 4? If there is a verse that "baptism visually represents the work that Christ did inside them, i.e. made them born again", why, please show it. But I predict that you will have a big problem with this, FOR BAPTISM SHOWS DEATH - NOT BIRTH (ROMANS 6). I appreciate that you want to discuss this matter of Baptism. But come, let us discuss the inspired words of God, not our cherished opinions. Baptism is about what I listed in posting # 4. Or, if you disagree, show why the scriptures I brought don't mean what they say.
    I did post some scripture about how Jesus justifies us... AFTER redemption, we are to be baptized. This "faithful work" BY man, does not save, Jesus already did.

    https://bibleforums.org/forum/christ...45#post2698845
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Walls View Post

      Not according to the rules of grammar. Added to this;

      Hebrews 12:2 says; "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

      Acts 14:27 says; "And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles."

      Romans 3:3 says; "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

      Romans 10:17 says; "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

      Romans 12:3
      says; "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

      I dare say that FAITH is a GIFT OF God.


      Please add Ephesians 2:8 to your list of scripture... so all (especially you) can understand the FULL context that BOTH grace and faith, are the gifts that save.

      FOLLOWING the redemption of a person, is... a baptism which is a good WORK of one's faith.
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Walls View Post

        NO! What caused them to be added? Scripture says in Acts 2:41-44;

        41 "Then they that gladly received his word ...
        ...
        44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common."


        The pouring out of the Holy Spirit FOR POWER never saved anybody. It was the DEATH OF CHRIST and the taking IN of the Holy Spirit that saves.

        Acts 2:21; "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (see Acts.4:12, 16:31)

        The "believers" and "disciples" of Ephesus had not received the POURING OUT (like Pentecost), but they were "twelve" (the number for God's people) and "disciples" of Jesus, and had BELIEVED but without having the Holy Spirit for POWER. The problem? Baptism in John's name instead of Baptism in Jesus's Name.

        They repented and believed... aka - "What must we do to be saved ?" They received Christ THAT DAY. SEVERAL THOUSAND WERE ADDED TO THE CHURCH THAT DAY !!!! Nothing more was needed. No works, not baptism, no attendance.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          See posting # 41. If you "split hairs" you wouldn't labor under misconceptions. Honor the Lord in what He has written and don't be sloppy.

          "most believers" is not a guideline. If you cannot answer posting # 16, which you cannot (I know, I was once there myself), let's discard majority opinion and stick to scripture.

          And let's lay something to rest - your continued use of "a place He prepared". It is NOT HEAVEN. It is an "ABODE" (lit. Gk.) in the Father's House. Read John 14 without a preconceived idea. You will find that our Lord promised that His Father's House had many "ABODES". The Lord would go away to prepare an ABODE for each disciple. Then He would return and when He returned the disciples would be where He WAS AS HE SPOKE. John 14:3; "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (PRESENT TENSE), there ye may be (FUTURE TENSE) also." So where was the Lord as He spoke? He was ON EARTH. But more than that He TELLS US WHERE HE WAS at the moment of speaking!

          John 14:10-11; "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."

          Our Lord then completes the prophecy by confirming in verse 20; "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (John 14:20). The Lord was prophesying that His Father's House - the Church - had many abodes, and some preparation was needed before the disciple could be where he was at that time of speaking - in the Father and the Father in Him!

          What was the preparation? To put away the defiling factor that stopped men being IN the Father and the Father in them - SIN and SINS! So our Lord goes away for three days, and returns as He promised. And "THAT DAY" was resurrection day in John 20:22. The "preparation" is not to prepare heaven for men, but to prepare the way for God to get into men and men to get into God AND BE HIS HOUSE! This is what the Book of John is all about - God's House and Christ's Bride.

          It is not splitting hairs. It is reading scripture accurately, using the rules of grammar. That's all the Lord asks. The light and revelation will come from Him, but if you read His words loosely, He will not honor you.

          Next time you write "a place prepared for us", remember, Walls takes this to mean the House of God as John 14 says. The "House of God" is NEVER, in the whole Bible, HEAVEN! It is severally;
          The Tabernacle (Ex.25:8, 29:45-46, Judg.18:31, 20:18, etc. etc.), Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, Christ's Body (Jn.2:16-21) and/or the Church (1st Tim.3:15).
          Okay Wall's., let's just cut to the chase buddy.

          What is the ultimate destination of a genuine follower of Christ ? I'm talking after the Millennial Reign of 1000 years ? Who with , and where do they spend the rest of eternity?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

            Please add Ephesians 2:8 to your list of scripture... so all (especially you) can understand the FULL context that BOTH grace and faith, are the gifts that save.

            FOLLOWING the redemption of a person, is... a baptism which is a good WORK of one's faith.
            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

            I did post some scripture about how Jesus justifies us... AFTER redemption, we are to be baptized. This "faithful work" BY man, does not save, Jesus already did.

            https://bibleforums.org/forum/christ...45#post2698845
            Both you and Pbminimum are like spring hares. You jump around the subjects of scripture with breathtaking speed. I post something on Baptism and you reply with "salvation". I then answer you about salvation and you jump back to Baptism. I understand your queries. When I give 7 or 8 points on how important Baptism is, it bothers you. You (rightly) think that if it is so important it must be detrimental to our salvation if we don't get Baptized. I know what the basic problem is. You both think salvation is going to heaven. So let me put this away once for all (I know it will take some time). God made man FROM the earth, to be nourished BY the earth, FOR dominion OVER the earth. That is God's plan in Genesis Chapter 1. SO I'LL SAY THIS TWICE, but I don't think it will help much:
            1. GOD HAS NOT CHANGED HIS PLAN DESPITE ADAM'S FALL
            2. GOD IS ALMIGHTY. NO-ONE CAN MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLAN
            In Matthew Chapter 13 our Lord Jesus predicted that a Woman would come and "leaven" the doctrine of the KINGDOM (v.33). Leaven is never anything positive in the Bible. It is used to adulterate bread to make it more palatable and give it more bulk. It is forbidden in most sacrifices of the Old Testament and is two negative things in the new Testament - (i) false doctrine, and (ii) works that spread defilement in the Church. According to the inspired record, the Churches were leavened by 95 AD when John wrote to the seven Churches. False doctrine and works that dirtied the Church before a holy God were rampant. In about 320 AD Constantine, an out-and-out pagan, and Montifex Maximus of the Roman Empire, declared Christianity a State religion. Rome, seriously degraded as a military empire, swapped its armor for priest's clothes and Rome became "the Holy Roman Empire", but still with its Pagan trappings. It does not take a lot of study to find out that all the evidence on the Woman who rides the Beast in Revelation 17 is Rome - and the SAME Woman of Matthew Chapter 13.

            The world has seen SIX great Empires since the flood. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. And while the languages and the geography changed, THEY ALL EMBRACED THE SAME PAGAN RELIGION FOUNDED BY NIMROD. Its basis is the worship of the creature, especially the heavenly host - the stars. And the mythology, YES, MYTHOLOGY, is that at death a man's works are placed in the scales of justice. If his good works outweighed his evil works, his DESTINY was a "Celestial Lodge" - a "Paradise among the stars". If his evil works outweighed the good, his destiny was a subterranean cavern full of suffering called "hell". This fancy story was carried over from Rome, and by about 500 AD, Christians started to adopt it. After another 1,000 years, while the study of scripture was forbidden to the Laity, this myth became firmly ensconced in Christianity. God is never wrong. The Woman had leavened the doctrine of the Kingdom, and the Christians, who like their bread nice and puffy and palatable, love this myth. It is their cherished doctrine, and was even embraced by the Reformers. It was only until the early 1800's that a group of Bible scholars decided to wipe the slate clean and start accepting ONLY that which is in the Bible. And lo and behold, the cherished myth of dead men going to heaven is NOT IN THE BIBLE.

            The Bible NEVER has dead men going to heaven, and it has only a very FEW AND SELECT men going there ALIVE and in their BODIES. But since man is made FOR the earth, ALL of them return to earth to partake of the KINGDOM - INCLUDING THE CHIEFEST OF THEM - JESUS CHRIST.

            SO THAT SHOULD ANSWER THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION. We who are saved will be raptured to the air, into the clouds and be judged by the Lord, Who is now KING and not Head any more. After this judgement we will return to earth, SOME to their reward and SOME to chastisement - ON THE EARTH.

            The Second Part of your question is straight forward but is very different to the Leaven of the Woman. In Genesis Chapter 2, God ordained a relationship where we human would TAKE HIM INSIDE OF US. When a man eats anything it is processed by his metabolism and becomes organically one with that man. Adam ate of a Tree that, when it became ONE with him, poisoned his flesh unto death. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life he would have become organically one with the Life of God. And because God's intrinsic nature is His Life (Jn.14:6), Adam would have become HOME to God and partaker of His divine nature. Man was made with three parts. God so equipped man to HOST Him that one of the parts is a human SPIRIT. The relationship that God wanted with man was that He would dwell in man and communicate FROM INSIDE - FROM THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

            In the early days, because of man's defiling situation, God could only dwell WITH men in a special building. And this building had a Veil so that this Holy God would not come into contact with profane man. If He did appear to a man, that man would die promptly. Aaron and his sons who serviced this HOUSE were in constant danger all the time. But once sin and sins had been atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ, the way was again open for a Holy God to dwell IN a man again. This happened on resurrection night in John 20:22. And from that day onward, Jesus Christ, both perfect Man and very God DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM HIS DISCIPLE WHEN IT CAME TO THE FLESH. He started to appear less and less, and was finally taken from eyes 40 days after His resurrection. WHY? Because God does not want His relationship with men to be BY SIGHT and TOUCH. He wants to dwell in man and communicate from man's "holy of holies" - his human spirit. So our Lord Jesus said that it is "expedient" that He goes away and sends a Spirit to replace Him (Jn.16:7). And Paul makes the bold statement in 2nd Corinthians 5:16; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." And our Lord reconfirms the reason in John 4:23-24;

            23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
            24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


            God, by the atoning work of Jesus His Son, removed all obstacles to man becoming the HOUSE (or ABODE, or TEMPLE) of the living God. And the relationship that God wants is that He, a Spirit, dwells in the spirits of men, and communicated from there. When the Kingdom is set up on earth, the overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19). That means that they will be scattered over the whole earth. Only at the Feast of Tabernacles every year, will they go up to meet with Emmanuel in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). But for 360 days a year, the relationship with Jehovah, His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, will be one, NOT OF SIGHT and TOUCH, but of a spiritual nature.

            THE SECOND PART OF THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT YOU WILL BE WITH CHRIST IN THE MOST INTIMATE WAY. HE WILL BE IN YOU AND YOU WILL COMMUNICATE FROM MINUTE TO MINUTE WITH HIM ABOUT EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE AS A KING OF A CITY, AND ABOUT THE INTIMACY RESERVED FOR A WIFE. You will be WITH HIM, IN HIM and HE will be IN YOU. It doesn't get more intimate than that!

            And, this leads us to Salvation and Baptism. But this posting is both long and somewhat new to you. So if you will allow, I will take a break for a few hours and then, God willing, come back and show what salvation is for, and what Baptism is for. But be honest brothers. Read my words carefully. Weigh them in the light of scripture. And if you cannot abide by this view, tell me. I won't bother you with the next chapter then, and we can go down the road that our personal beliefs point. If you do not accept what I have written above - well and good. It is your right. But spare me further discussion on Salvation and Baptism, for, if the foundation is removed, the bricks always fall anyway.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Walls View Post



              Both you and Pbminimum are like spring hares. You jump around the subjects of scripture with breathtaking speed. I post something on Baptism and you reply with "salvation". I then answer you about salvation and you jump back to Baptism. I understand your queries. When I give 7 or 8 points on how important Baptism is, it bothers you. You (rightly) think that if it is so important it must be detrimental to our salvation if we don't get Baptized. I know what the basic problem is. You both think salvation is going to heaven. So let me put this away once for all (I know it will take some time). God made man FROM the earth, to be nourished BY the earth, FOR dominion OVER the earth. That is God's plan in Genesis Chapter 1. SO I'LL SAY THIS TWICE, but I don't think it will help much:
              1. GOD HAS NOT CHANGED HIS PLAN DESPITE ADAM'S FALL
              2. GOD IS ALMIGHTY. NO-ONE CAN MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLAN
              In Matthew Chapter 13 our Lord Jesus predicted that a Woman would come and "leaven" the doctrine of the KINGDOM (v.33). Leaven is never anything positive in the Bible. It is used to adulterate bread to make it more palatable and give it more bulk. It is forbidden in most sacrifices of the Old Testament and is two negative things in the new Testament - (i) false doctrine, and (ii) works that spread defilement in the Church. According to the inspired record, the Churches were leavened by 95 AD when John wrote to the seven Churches. False doctrine and works that dirtied the Church before a holy God were rampant. In about 320 AD Constantine, an out-and-out pagan, and Montifex Maximus of the Roman Empire, declared Christianity a State religion. Rome, seriously degraded as a military empire, swapped its armor for priest's clothes and Rome became "the Holy Roman Empire", but still with its Pagan trappings. It does not take a lot of study to find out that all the evidence on the Woman who rides the Beast in Revelation 17 is Rome - and the SAME Woman of Matthew Chapter 13.

              The world has seen SIX great Empires since the flood. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. And while the languages and the geography changed, THEY ALL EMBRACED THE SAME PAGAN RELIGION FOUNDED BY NIMROD. Its basis is the worship of the creature, especially the heavenly host - the stars. And the mythology, YES, MYTHOLOGY, is that at death a man's works are placed in the scales of justice. If his good works outweighed his evil works, his DESTINY was a "Celestial Lodge" - a "Paradise among the stars". If his evil works outweighed the good, his destiny was a subterranean cavern full of suffering called "hell". This fancy story was carried over from Rome, and by about 500 AD, Christians started to adopt it. After another 1,000 years, while the study of scripture was forbidden to the Laity, this myth became firmly ensconced in Christianity. God is never wrong. The Woman had leavened the doctrine of the Kingdom, and the Christians, who like their bread nice and puffy and palatable, love this myth. It is their cherished doctrine, and was even embraced by the Reformers. It was only until the early 1800's that a group of Bible scholars decided to wipe the slate clean and start accepting ONLY that which is in the Bible. And lo and behold, the cherished myth of dead men going to heaven is NOT IN THE BIBLE.

              The Bible NEVER has dead men going to heaven, and it has only a very FEW AND SELECT men going there ALIVE and in their BODIES. But since man is made FOR the earth, ALL of them return to earth to partake of the KINGDOM - INCLUDING THE CHIEFEST OF THEM - JESUS CHRIST.

              SO THAT SHOULD ANSWER THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION. We who are saved will be raptured to the air, into the clouds and be judged by the Lord, Who is now KING and not Head any more. After this judgement we will return to earth, SOME to their reward and SOME to chastisement - ON THE EARTH.

              The Second Part of your question is straight forward but is very different to the Leaven of the Woman. In Genesis Chapter 2, God ordained a relationship where we human would TAKE HIM INSIDE OF US. When a man eats anything it is processed by his metabolism and becomes organically one with that man. Adam ate of a Tree that, when it became ONE with him, poisoned his flesh unto death. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life he would have become organically one with the Life of God. And because God's intrinsic nature is His Life (Jn.14:6), Adam would have become HOME to God and partaker of His divine nature. Man was made with three parts. God so equipped man to HOST Him that one of the parts is a human SPIRIT. The relationship that God wanted with man was that He would dwell in man and communicate FROM INSIDE - FROM THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

              In the early days, because of man's defiling situation, God could only dwell WITH men in a special building. And this building had a Veil so that this Holy God would not come into contact with profane man. If He did appear to a man, that man would die promptly. Aaron and his sons who serviced this HOUSE were in constant danger all the time. But once sin and sins had been atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ, the way was again open for a Holy God to dwell IN a man again. This happened on resurrection night in John 20:22. And from that day onward, Jesus Christ, both perfect Man and very God DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM HIS DISCIPLE WHEN IT CAME TO THE FLESH. He started to appear less and less, and was finally taken from eyes 40 days after His resurrection. WHY? Because God does not want His relationship with men to be BY SIGHT and TOUCH. He wants to dwell in man and communicate from man's "holy of holies" - his human spirit. So our Lord Jesus said that it is "expedient" that He goes away and sends a Spirit to replace Him (Jn.16:7). And Paul makes the bold statement in 2nd Corinthians 5:16; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." And our Lord reconfirms the reason in John 4:23-24;

              23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
              24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


              God, by the atoning work of Jesus His Son, removed all obstacles to man becoming the HOUSE (or ABODE, or TEMPLE) of the living God. And the relationship that God wants is that He, a Spirit, dwells in the spirits of men, and communicated from there. When the Kingdom is set up on earth, the overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19). That means that they will be scattered over the whole earth. Only at the Feast of Tabernacles every year, will they go up to meet with Emmanuel in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). But for 360 days a year, the relationship with Jehovah, His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, will be one, NOT OF SIGHT and TOUCH, but of a spiritual nature.

              THE SECOND PART OF THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT YOU WILL BE WITH CHRIST IN THE MOST INTIMATE WAY. HE WILL BE IN YOU AND YOU WILL COMMUNICATE FROM MINUTE TO MINUTE WITH HIM ABOUT EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE AS A KING OF A CITY, AND ABOUT THE INTIMACY RESERVED FOR A WIFE. You will be WITH HIM, IN HIM and HE will be IN YOU. It doesn't get more intimate than that!

              And, this leads us to Salvation and Baptism. But this posting is both long and somewhat new to you. So if you will allow, I will take a break for a few hours and then, God willing, come back and show what salvation is for, and what Baptism is for. But be honest brothers. Read my words carefully. Weigh them in the light of scripture. And if you cannot abide by this view, tell me. I won't bother you with the next chapter then, and we can go down the road that our personal beliefs point. If you do not accept what I have written above - well and good. It is your right. But spare me further discussion on Salvation and Baptism, for, if the foundation is removed, the bricks always fall anyway.
              Did the scriptures you posted earlier and my asking if you can ADD Eph 2:8... help you understand that BOTH Grace and Faith are the gifts that result in salvation when a person believes?

              Thus WHEN a person does believe, they are redeemed by Jesus... correct or NOT correct?

              Or are you gonna insist that man's work, results in redemption? Meaning, Salvation is by faith AND works... we KNOW this is not true. So why do you insist that the work of a baptism is necessary for redemption?

              May I ask that add ANOTHER scripture to your list... Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

              Again, you are trying to push that one does not get sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER another man baptizes a believer?

              Word of warning, if your next post attempts to push man as the final authority unto salvation, through a work called, Baptism... I will loop back to this again and again until you FOCUS on when a person is justified/redeemed, born-again, etc.

              The when is simply answered, WHEN they have believed unto Jesus Christ. THEN, in ceremony/testimony of the work that Jesus did, a water baptism is the symbolization OF Jesus' work of washing a person clean (cleansing) of sin. So, instead of SPEAKING the testimony of Christ's work in saving them, instead the new person ACTS out what Christ accomplished. We call this faithful work, Baptism.
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Walls View Post



                Both you and Pbminimum are like spring hares. You jump around the subjects of scripture with breathtaking speed. I post something on Baptism and you reply with "salvation". I then answer you about salvation and you jump back to Baptism. I understand your queries. When I give 7 or 8 points on how important Baptism is, it bothers you. You (rightly) think that if it is so important it must be detrimental to our salvation if we don't get Baptized. I know what the basic problem is. You both think salvation is going to heaven. So let me put this away once for all (I know it will take some time). God made man FROM the earth, to be nourished BY the earth, FOR dominion OVER the earth. That is God's plan in Genesis Chapter 1. SO I'LL SAY THIS TWICE, but I don't think it will help much:
                1. GOD HAS NOT CHANGED HIS PLAN DESPITE ADAM'S FALL
                2. GOD IS ALMIGHTY. NO-ONE CAN MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLAN
                In Matthew Chapter 13 our Lord Jesus predicted that a Woman would come and "leaven" the doctrine of the KINGDOM (v.33). Leaven is never anything positive in the Bible. It is used to adulterate bread to make it more palatable and give it more bulk. It is forbidden in most sacrifices of the Old Testament and is two negative things in the new Testament - (i) false doctrine, and (ii) works that spread defilement in the Church. According to the inspired record, the Churches were leavened by 95 AD when John wrote to the seven Churches. False doctrine and works that dirtied the Church before a holy God were rampant. In about 320 AD Constantine, an out-and-out pagan, and Montifex Maximus of the Roman Empire, declared Christianity a State religion. Rome, seriously degraded as a military empire, swapped its armor for priest's clothes and Rome became "the Holy Roman Empire", but still with its Pagan trappings. It does not take a lot of study to find out that all the evidence on the Woman who rides the Beast in Revelation 17 is Rome - and the SAME Woman of Matthew Chapter 13.

                The world has seen SIX great Empires since the flood. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. And while the languages and the geography changed, THEY ALL EMBRACED THE SAME PAGAN RELIGION FOUNDED BY NIMROD. Its basis is the worship of the creature, especially the heavenly host - the stars. And the mythology, YES, MYTHOLOGY, is that at death a man's works are placed in the scales of justice. If his good works outweighed his evil works, his DESTINY was a "Celestial Lodge" - a "Paradise among the stars". If his evil works outweighed the good, his destiny was a subterranean cavern full of suffering called "hell". This fancy story was carried over from Rome, and by about 500 AD, Christians started to adopt it. After another 1,000 years, while the study of scripture was forbidden to the Laity, this myth became firmly ensconced in Christianity. God is never wrong. The Woman had leavened the doctrine of the Kingdom, and the Christians, who like their bread nice and puffy and palatable, love this myth. It is their cherished doctrine, and was even embraced by the Reformers. It was only until the early 1800's that a group of Bible scholars decided to wipe the slate clean and start accepting ONLY that which is in the Bible. And lo and behold, the cherished myth of dead men going to heaven is NOT IN THE BIBLE.

                The Bible NEVER has dead men going to heaven, and it has only a very FEW AND SELECT men going there ALIVE and in their BODIES. But since man is made FOR the earth, ALL of them return to earth to partake of the KINGDOM - INCLUDING THE CHIEFEST OF THEM - JESUS CHRIST.

                SO THAT SHOULD ANSWER THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION. We who are saved will be raptured to the air, into the clouds and be judged by the Lord, Who is now KING and not Head any more. After this judgement we will return to earth, SOME to their reward and SOME to chastisement - ON THE EARTH.

                The Second Part of your question is straight forward but is very different to the Leaven of the Woman. In Genesis Chapter 2, God ordained a relationship where we human would TAKE HIM INSIDE OF US. When a man eats anything it is processed by his metabolism and becomes organically one with that man. Adam ate of a Tree that, when it became ONE with him, poisoned his flesh unto death. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life he would have become organically one with the Life of God. And because God's intrinsic nature is His Life (Jn.14:6), Adam would have become HOME to God and partaker of His divine nature. Man was made with three parts. God so equipped man to HOST Him that one of the parts is a human SPIRIT. The relationship that God wanted with man was that He would dwell in man and communicate FROM INSIDE - FROM THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

                In the early days, because of man's defiling situation, God could only dwell WITH men in a special building. And this building had a Veil so that this Holy God would not come into contact with profane man. If He did appear to a man, that man would die promptly. Aaron and his sons who serviced this HOUSE were in constant danger all the time. But once sin and sins had been atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ, the way was again open for a Holy God to dwell IN a man again. This happened on resurrection night in John 20:22. And from that day onward, Jesus Christ, both perfect Man and very God DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM HIS DISCIPLE WHEN IT CAME TO THE FLESH. He started to appear less and less, and was finally taken from eyes 40 days after His resurrection. WHY? Because God does not want His relationship with men to be BY SIGHT and TOUCH. He wants to dwell in man and communicate from man's "holy of holies" - his human spirit. So our Lord Jesus said that it is "expedient" that He goes away and sends a Spirit to replace Him (Jn.16:7). And Paul makes the bold statement in 2nd Corinthians 5:16; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." And our Lord reconfirms the reason in John 4:23-24;

                23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
                24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


                God, by the atoning work of Jesus His Son, removed all obstacles to man becoming the HOUSE (or ABODE, or TEMPLE) of the living God. And the relationship that God wants is that He, a Spirit, dwells in the spirits of men, and communicated from there. When the Kingdom is set up on earth, the overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19). That means that they will be scattered over the whole earth. Only at the Feast of Tabernacles every year, will they go up to meet with Emmanuel in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). But for 360 days a year, the relationship with Jehovah, His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, will be one, NOT OF SIGHT and TOUCH, but of a spiritual nature.

                THE SECOND PART OF THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT YOU WILL BE WITH CHRIST IN THE MOST INTIMATE WAY. HE WILL BE IN YOU AND YOU WILL COMMUNICATE FROM MINUTE TO MINUTE WITH HIM ABOUT EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE AS A KING OF A CITY, AND ABOUT THE INTIMACY RESERVED FOR A WIFE. You will be WITH HIM, IN HIM and HE will be IN YOU. It doesn't get more intimate than that!

                And, this leads us to Salvation and Baptism. But this posting is both long and somewhat new to you. So if you will allow, I will take a break for a few hours and then, God willing, come back and show what salvation is for, and what Baptism is for. But be honest brothers. Read my words carefully. Weigh them in the light of scripture. And if you cannot abide by this view, tell me. I won't bother you with the next chapter then, and we can go down the road that our personal beliefs point. If you do not accept what I have written above - well and good. It is your right. But spare me further discussion on Salvation and Baptism, for, if the foundation is removed, the bricks always fall anyway.
                No one is "jumping around"... only bringing you back to the truth. Truth is, salvation - or being redeemed and no longer separated with God is not EARNED by works.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Walls View Post
                  [*][Baptism] is a COMMAND. Whether we understand it or not, we are obliged to be IMMERSED in water in the name of Jesus. Those who refuse it are rebels and will not enter the Kingdom when Christ returns (Matt.7:21-23)
                  In your understanding, is baptism a unique "will of God" being referenced in Matthew 7, or does it fall under "general obedience?" In other words, can someone also not be obedient about "do not worry about tomorrow" and similarly forfeit entry into the kingdom, given this was a command given explicitly in the same sermon?

                  I'll phrase it a third way. If a believer is obedient in baptism but not obedient in being "angry towards your brother," will that person enter the kingdom?

                  [Baptism] guarantees that one will be resurrected like Christ (Rom. 6:5)
                  [Baptism] clears the conscience in order to serve Christ (1st Pet.3:20-21)
                  [Baptism] is the qualification for receiving the outward giving of the Holy Spirit for service to the Lord (Act.2:38)
                  I interpret your three points here to mean that a believer who is not baptized does NOT have or receive these things. Am I correct?
                  「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                  撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post

                    In your understanding, is baptism a unique "will of God" being referenced in Matthew 7, or does it fall under "general obedience?" In other words, can someone also not be obedient about "do not worry about tomorrow" and similarly forfeit entry into the kingdom, given this was a command given explicitly in the same sermon?

                    I'll phrase it a third way. If a believer is obedient in baptism but not obedient in being "angry towards your brother," will that person enter the kingdom?

                    I interpret your three points here to mean that a believer who is not baptized does NOT have or receive these things. Am I correct?
                    Ya know... P is the one who said a long time ago concerning false teachings. Scripture utilized to push any false teaching, some or all of the very scriptures that are used, actually refute the false position. You listed the use of 1 Peter 3:20-21... which is the main scripture utilized to teach how the water baptism that man does, does not save a person. Only SAVED people are baptized.

                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                      Did the scriptures you posted earlier and my asking if you can ADD Eph 2:8... help you understand that BOTH Grace and Faith are the gifts that result in salvation when a person believes?

                      Thus WHEN a person does believe, they are redeemed by Jesus... correct or NOT correct?

                      Or are you gonna insist that man's work, results in redemption? Meaning, Salvation is by faith AND works... we KNOW this is not true. So why do you insist that the work of a baptism is necessary for redemption?

                      May I ask that add ANOTHER scripture to your list... Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

                      Again, you are trying to push that one does not get sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER another man baptizes a believer?

                      Word of warning, if your next post attempts to push man as the final authority unto salvation, through a work called, Baptism... I will loop back to this again and again until you FOCUS on when a person is justified/redeemed, born-again, etc.

                      The when is simply answered, WHEN they have believed unto Jesus Christ. THEN, in ceremony/testimony of the work that Jesus did, a water baptism is the symbolization OF Jesus' work of washing a person clean (cleansing) of sin. So, instead of SPEAKING the testimony of Christ's work in saving them, instead the new person ACTS out what Christ accomplished. We call this faithful work, Baptism.
                      OK. The posting you quoted when you wrote the above, said nothing of salvation. It merely alluded to atonement as the solution to the blockage why God could not live IN man until resurrection day. What I promised to do was to bring it into the next posting IF you guys agreed on God's purpose. You did not indicate that my posting made sense. I lay the ground work and you ignore it - which of course is your right. Who am I to make requests. But you just saved me an hours work. I quit.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post

                        No one is "jumping around"... only bringing you back to the truth. Truth is, salvation - or being redeemed and no longer separated with God is not EARNED by works.
                        OK. The posting you quoted when you wrote the above, said nothing of salvation. It merely alluded to atonement as the solution to the blockage why God could not live IN man until resurrection day. What I promised to do was to bring it into the next posting IF you guys agreed on God's purpose. You did not indicate that my posting made sense. I lay the ground work and you ignore it - which of course is your right. Who am I to make requests. But you just saved me an hours work. I quit.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                          Ya know... P is the one who said a long time ago concerning false teachings. Scripture utilized to push any false teaching, some or all of the very scriptures that are used, actually refute the false position. You listed the use of 1 Peter 3:20-21... which is the main scripture utilized to teach how the water baptism that man does, does not save a person. Only SAVED people are baptized.
                          Right, but you have to consider Walls' specific point of view. Because he differentiates "rewards of being saved" from "rewards of being baptized," the discussion can't go anywhere by proving baptism does not save. In his mind, salvation and the inheritance/kingdom are two different topics. If we don't listen to why he makes the distinction, then nothing from our position can be made relevant to his train of thought.
                          「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                          撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post

                            In your understanding, is baptism a unique "will of God" being referenced in Matthew 7, or does it fall under "general obedience?" In other words, can someone also not be obedient about "do not worry about tomorrow" and similarly forfeit entry into the kingdom, given this was a command given explicitly in the same sermon?

                            I'll phrase it a third way. If a believer is obedient in baptism but not obedient in being "angry towards your brother," will that person enter the kingdom?





                            I interpret your three points here to mean that a believer who is not baptized does NOT have or receive these things. Am I correct?
                            That is correct. Matthew 28:19; "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." That is, Baptism is part of the teaching of the gospel. So also in Acts 2:38. The new convert, just like the eunuch in Acts 8:35-38, should at least be aware that Baptism is part of the gospel. So the very first ACT, AFTER FAITH, should be voluntary Baptism. The new convert will not understand Baptism at that moment. But he/she is COMMANDED to do it. The OBEDIENCE is at once tested. You can readily see that if the new convert refuses this very first test, he/she is already unfit for the Kingdom. FAITH is first, as Philip tested in verse 37. Then comes the test of that faith - obedience to the very first COMMAND. I'm not saying that the new covert who starts his/her Christian walk with blatant disobedience will not recover, but it is the very first test of obedience.

                            Of course, Christians today disregard Baptism as part of the gospel, so it is no wonder that such threads like this one are prolific, and no wonder the lengths some brothers will go to downplay Baptism.

                            So to answer your first question, God is serious about obedience as Matthew 7:21-23 indicates. After all, these Christians had marvelous power, but they did their own thing. God does not allow rebels into His Kingdom. Just one act of disobedience cost Saul the crown (1st Sam.15:26). I know that we all disobey, and God is merciful in this age of grace. But I would not like to downplay the seriousness of disobeying a direct command - big or small in seeming importance.

                            To your second question regarding the resurrection, I refer you to 1st Corinthians 15:40-42;

                            40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
                            41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
                            42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."


                            This monumental Chapter on the resurrection plainly states that those of the "heavenly persuasion" - stars, will have DIFFERING glories. The question is WHY? The answer is that NOT ALL CHRISTIANS LIVE THE SAME LIFE. The word "glory", "Doxa" in the Greek, means; "made apparent" (Strong). Thus, in resurrection it will be "made apparent" what was planted in death (V.38). It is clear that Ananias and Saphira will be very different to Paul in resurrection. It will be "made apparent" what they were in life.

                            If you are still not sure of this, consider Paul in Philippians 3:10-11;

                            10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
                            11 If by any means I might attain unto the (special) resurrection of the dead."


                            The word used in verse 11 for "resurrection" is only used once in the whole New Testament. Usually the word for resurrection is "anastasis", as it is in verse 10. But in verse 11 it is "EX-anastasis". It literally means "the resurrection out of the resurrection". According to 1st Corinthians 15:22 ALL MEN will be resurrected. It is a guaranteed FACT. The Christian is guaranteed resurrection when Christ returns, not at the White Throne a thousand years later. But within the guaranteed resurrection there is a "special" resurrection that must be "ATTAINED TO". I judge that this is the "FIRST resurrection" of Revelation 20. There will be a resurrection within the resurrection that (i) must be striven for, and (ii) that qualifies one to be co-king with Christ - as Revelation 20 shows. I also judge that this is what Paul meant when He says that Christ's resurrection will have a certain POWER attached to it. The whole of verse 10 shows an intimate walk with Jesus in experimental knowledge, in the same sufferings and in the same glorious resurrection that leads to the Kingdom.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Aviyah View Post

                              Right, but you have to consider Walls' specific point of view. Because he differentiates "rewards of being saved" from "rewards of being baptized," the discussion can't go anywhere by proving baptism does not save. In his mind, salvation and the inheritance/kingdom are two different topics. If we don't listen to why he makes the distinction, then nothing from our position can be made relevant to his train of thought.
                              You are very perceptive. If I wanted to hear the answer to my question, I would have provisionally agreed with posting #50. They are not interested. I address one point, they snipe with a one-liner at another point. I address that point, and they flip flop back to another point with barely more than one line.

                              Man was made to be in the image of God, and man was made to subdue and have dominion over the earth. In the Fall of man, he lost BOTH. Therefore, God's full salvation is not ONLY to wrench a man from the jaws of the Lake of Fire and set him in streets of gold in heaven. God's recovery contains these TWO elements AND ONE MORE - atonement.
                              1. Christ's death sets aside the problem of sin and sins that God will not wink at. This atonement is had by FAITH. Thus he is SAVED BY FAITH from the consequences of sin and sins
                              2. Christ's LIFE infuses the barren Christian and he will be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29). Christ enters the Christian by FAITH (Jn.3:15-16). Thus he is SAVED BY FAITH from a corrupt nature
                              3. The Christians LIFE, or behavior, will decide if he/she is worthy of being restored to "dominion". He/she must deny the self, take up their cross daily, add virtue to their faith and shun a sinful life to PROVE that they will do this in the Kingdom. The first ACT is Baptism. This ACT has vital connotations for the Kingdom as my previous posting showed. To enter the Kingdom is to be SAVED by EFFORT. In Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." In Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." In Matthew 24:46-47, "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods." And so on ...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Walls View Post

                                OK. The posting you quoted when you wrote the above, said nothing of salvation. It merely alluded to atonement as the solution to the blockage why God could not live IN man until resurrection day. What I promised to do was to bring it into the next posting IF you guys agreed on God's purpose. You did not indicate that my posting made sense. I lay the ground work and you ignore it - which of course is your right. Who am I to make requests. But you just saved me an hours work. I quit.
                                Walls, it does not take "hours" to respond with a concise response that is in relation to what is being discussed.

                                I can read a post of yours where you list several scriptures and them make a statement in relation to those scriptures, relating to "your" view. However, when I post a single verse and ask you to PLEASE include the verse in your list... why won't you?

                                My discussion point was clear, that single verse verifies that your "view" of the many you posted, isn't fully covering ALL that the Word of God says about grace and faith.

                                In other words, in the 1 minute I took to find the verse to point out what you FAILED to see about grace and faith, you posted an essay to both myself and P... I could had said, Thanks for the response... are ya gonna address Ephesians 2:8? But you didn't, so I pressed it with the Eph 1 verse... only to have you bail.

                                I KNOW why you bailed and the reason is because if you actually address Eph 2:8 or the other, you will be helping us point out the errors of YOUR view. So... you side step until you can't find a place to side step anymore and then, just quit.

                                In a week, month or even a year from now, you will continue to be pushing your view, no one will be buying into it and while many will try to help you... you will, in time claim that YOUR view, is uncontested.

                                My suggestion is to quit running from points that will point out your errors.

                                Don't take an hour.... take 2 minutes to address Eph 2:8 and the Eph 1 verse.
                                Slug1--out

                                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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