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  • That stumbling stone

    How can we sum this up? All those people who didn't seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it. How could they miss it? Because instead of trusting God, they took over. They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing. They were so absorbed in their 'God projects' that they didn't notice God right in front of them, like a huge rock in the middle of the road. and so they stumbled into him and went sprawling. Isaiah (again!) gives us the metaphor for putting this together:

    Careful! I've put a huge stone on the road to Mount Zion, a stone you can't get around. But the stone is me! if you're looking for me, you'll find me on the way, not in the way.

    Romans 9:30-33, TMB

    What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. As it is written:

    Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and rock of offense, And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.

    Romans 9:30-33, NKJV

    While there is a definite sense in which Jesus is the stumblingstone spoken of in this passage, there is also a sense in which the stumblingstone is the Torah. Because the Jews sought for righteousness by trying to keep the law, they were stumbling at that stiumblingstone.

    God says true righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from keeping the law, and this very idea is a stumblingstone to many Jews, as well as to many Christians who have a faulty idea about the way to get to God.

    Striving to enter in by the power of their own holiness, they seek to enter in by "trying to be good," and this will just not cut it. The only way to salvation is Jesus Christ (John 14:6), and within His gospel is His death, burial, and resurrection which He accomplished for us, His precious blood shed on the Cross of Calvary.

    Forgiveness only comes through the blood, not through keeping the law, and this is a stumblingstone to those who seek to enter in through their own righteousness, that is, through their own personal efforts in trying to keep the law. They stumble because they don't know the real gospel of grace.

    Pray that the people in the visible body (those who go to church regularily) may come to the knowledge of God's awesome grace and come to the end of themselves, and no longer stumble at that stumblingstone.
    Phileo and Agape in Christ,
    Geoffrey Primanti

    I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
    Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
    To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
    Eph. 3:8, NKJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by Gift of God View Post
    How can we sum this up? All those people who didn't seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it. How could they miss it? Because instead of trusting God, they took over. They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing. They were so absorbed in their 'God projects' that they didn't notice God right in front of them, like a huge rock in the middle of the road. and so they stumbled into him and went sprawling. Isaiah (again!) gives us the metaphor for putting this together:

    Careful! I've put a huge stone on the road to Mount Zion, a stone you can't get around. But the stone is me! if you're looking for me, you'll find me on the way, not in the way.

    Romans 9:30-33, TMB

    What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. As it is written:

    Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and rock of offense, And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.

    Romans 9:30-33, NKJV

    While there is a definite sense in which Jesus is the stumblingstone spoken of in this passage, there is also a sense in which the stumblingstone is the Torah. Because the Jews sought for righteousness by trying to keep the law, they were stumbling at that stiumblingstone.

    God says true righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from keeping the law, and this very idea is a stumblingstone to many Jews, as well as to many Christians who have a faulty idea about the way to get to God.

    Striving to enter in by the power of their own holiness, they seek to enter in by "trying to be good," and this will just not cut it. The only way to salvation is Jesus Christ (John 14:6), and within His gospel is His death, burial, and resurrection which He accomplished for us, His precious blood shed on the Cross of Calvary.

    Forgiveness only comes through the blood, not through keeping the law, and this is a stumblingstone to those who seek to enter in through their own righteousness, that is, through their own personal efforts in trying to keep the law. They stumble because they don't know the real gospel of grace.

    Pray that the people in the visible body (those who go to church regularily) may come to the knowledge of God's awesome grace and come to the end of themselves, and no longer stumble at that stumblingstone.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Isaiah spoke of these types of people... and Jesus reaffirmed this by His teachings.. saying..


    these peoples eyes are shut and their ears are closed and their hearts are waxed gross or hardened..

    less they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, repent and be converted and I would heal them.....

    Its the work of the Spirit of Christ.. the 'true' circumcision of the heart...that allows this..

    and those whose eyes were shut, ears were closed, and hearts hardened

    'stumbled at the stumblingstone or rock of offense'. That still goes on today...
    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
    ------------------------------------------------
    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
    Jeremiah 31:3

    Comment


    • #3
      How can we sum this up? All those people who didn't seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it. How could they miss it? Because instead of trusting God, they took over. They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing. They were so absorbed in their 'God projects' that they didn't notice God right in front of them, like a huge rock in the middle of the road. and so they stumbled into him and went sprawling. Isaiah (again!) gives us the metaphor for putting this together:

      Careful! I've put a huge stone on the road to Mount Zion, a stone you can't get around. But the stone is me! if you're looking for me, you'll find me on the way, not in the way.

      Romans 9:30-33, TMB

      What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. As it is written:

      Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and rock of offense, And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.

      Romans 9:30-33, NKJV
      Phileo and Agape in Christ,
      Geoffrey Primanti

      I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
      Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
      To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
      Eph. 3:8, NKJV

      Comment


      • #4
        While there is a definite sense in which Jesus is the stumblingstone spoken of in this passage, there is also a sense in which the stumblingstone is the Torah. Because the Jews sought for righteousness by trying to keep the law, they were stumbling at that stiumblingstone.

        God says true righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from keeping the law, and this very idea is a stumblingstone to many Jews, as well as to many Christians who have a faulty idea about the way to get to God.

        Striving to enter in by the power of their own holiness, they seek to enter in by "trying to be good," and this will just not cut it. The only way to salvation is Jesus Christ (John 14:6), and within His gospel is His death, burial, and resurrection which He accomplished for us, His precious blood shed on the Cross of Calvary.

        Forgiveness only comes through the blood, not through keeping the law, and this is a stumblingstone to those who seek to enter in through their own righteousness, that is, through their own personal efforts in trying to keep the law. They stumble because they don't know the real gospel of grace.

        Pray that the people in the visible body (those who go to church regularily) may come to the knowledge of God's awesome grace and come to the end of themselves, and no longer stumble at that stumblingstone.
        Phileo and Agape in Christ,
        Geoffrey Primanti

        I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
        Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
        To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
        Eph. 3:8, NKJV

        Comment


        • #5
          While there is a definite sense in which Jesus is the stumbling stone spoken of in this passage, there is also a sense in which the stumbling stone is the Torah. Because the Jews sought for righteousness by trying to keep the law, they were stumbling at that stumbling stone.
          The Law is not a stumbling stone, the stumbling stone is the truth, the Holy Spirit..... which they rejected. The law being good and holy and just cannot be a stumbling stone it was their hardness of heart their rejection of the Holy Spirit that caused their fall.

          Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

          They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing
          They were absorbed in their selfish desire to look holy.
          They were doing it all for the wrong motives.

          Shalom,
          Tanja
          Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
          2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
          If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
          http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



          Comment


          • #6
            I disagree. It is clear (at least to me) from the passage that they stumbled at that stumblingstone because they sought for righteousness not by faith, but as it were, through the works of the law (Romans 9:32).
            Phileo and Agape in Christ,
            Geoffrey Primanti

            I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
            Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
            To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
            Eph. 3:8, NKJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
              The Law is not a stumbling stone, the stumbling stone is the truth, the Holy Spirit..... which they rejected. The law being good and holy and just cannot be a stumbling stone it was their hardness of heart their rejection of the Holy Spirit that caused their fall.

              Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

              They were absorbed in their selfish desire to look holy.
              They were doing it all for the wrong motives.

              Shalom,
              Tanja
              Amen. Thank you! The line in the sand is when the created thing (Torah) is worshipped in lieu of the Creator. I see that type of worship even today with many Christians (e.g. baptism)

              Torah was never a path to salvation, and the Jews knew it. I wish the Gentiles would learn that and stop using that false teaching as an excuse to disobey God.

              Messiah freed us to obey God's instructions without condemnation.
              Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

              Comment


              • #8
                keck553,

                Are you saying that I use the verses I have quoted as an excuse to disobey God?

                On the contrary, this accusation is false (beware lest you become as the accuser of the brethren).

                I am talking about God the Holy Spirit, not God the letter of the law (a false god, if you ask me). I definitely obey Him, out of love for Him.

                Christ Jesus has freed us to obey God Himself without condemnation. There is a difference between the oldness of the letter and the newness of the Spirit. Romans 7:6.

                I ask you: do you yourself believe that the New Testament is the inspired word and authority of God, or not?
                Phileo and Agape in Christ,
                Geoffrey Primanti

                I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
                Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
                To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
                Eph. 3:8, NKJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Also, read Romans 9:32 before you say that the Jews knew the law was not a path to salvation, for that verse contradicts your thesis.
                  Phileo and Agape in Christ,
                  Geoffrey Primanti

                  I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
                  Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
                  To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
                  Eph. 3:8, NKJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gift of God View Post
                    keck553,

                    Are you saying that I use the verses I have quoted as an excuse to disobey God?

                    On the contrary, this accusation is false (beware lest you become as the accuser of the brethren).

                    I am talking about God the Holy Spirit, not God the letter of the law (a false god, if you ask me). I definitely obey Him, out of love for Him.

                    Christ Jesus has freed us to obey God Himself without condemnation. There is a difference between the oldness of the letter and the newness of the Spirit. Romans 7:6.

                    I ask you: do you yourself believe that the New Testament is the inspired word and authority of God, or not?
                    I wasn't referring to you or your post. I was responding the other poster and elaborating.

                    If you are referring to the God of Moses as a false God. I'll pray for you. If you are referring to Torah, Given by God and pronounced Holy and good by Jesus becoming an idol, I agree with you.

                    If you want to debate Jesus tossing out His Torah given to Moses and replacing it with a ham sandwich, I'd be happy to do that, in the spirit of brethren love of course!!
                    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wasn't talking about the God of Moses, I was talking about the Torah, so we are in agreement.

                      But I would love for you to keep me in your prayers anyway.
                      Phileo and Agape in Christ,
                      Geoffrey Primanti

                      I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
                      Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
                      To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
                      Eph. 3:8, NKJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As for the ham sandwich thing, check out 1 Timothy 4:1-6.
                        Phileo and Agape in Christ,
                        Geoffrey Primanti

                        I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
                        Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
                        To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
                        Eph. 3:8, NKJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you understood Jewish and Greek culture, to which this is addressed, and remembering Paul was a Jew and knew something of Greek culture, you would also understand that to a Jew ham or any other scavenger meat was not considered 'food' anymore than a shoe would be. Paul, in his references to food is 1) referring to food as described by God as food that was sacrificed to idols, speaking to it's ritual cleanliness, not stuff they didn't consider food at all, and 2) referring to many Greeks who were vegetarians and nagging on people who ate meat.

                          Do you think God described what was food and what wasn't food for humans to show them sin? LOL. I think God knows a little more about His creations and their physical effects on the human body than we do. At least I trust He does.
                          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's the prerogative of the Jew to want to keep the Old Testament dietary laws, today it is a part of his culture. But biblically no one is condemned for eating any "creature of God" and that includes pigs.

                            Personally I think they're filthy animals, although I do enjoy bacon. No one is condemned for eating bacon according to the verses I have given you, not even a Jew. He may get ostracized by his fellow Jews if he does it in front of them, but he is not condemned by any means. And Galatians tells the story of how Peter was hypocritical and Paul called him out for it because he began eating only kosher foods once the Judaizers came to town. But the Bible is clear that even Jews have the liberty in Christ to eat anything they want, because it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

                            Peter himself was Jewish and ate unkosher foods because the Holy Spirit wants to make the point that in Christ, Jew and Gentile are one nation under God.
                            Phileo and Agape in Christ,
                            Geoffrey Primanti

                            I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law.
                            Gal. 5:2-3, TMB
                            To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
                            Eph. 3:8, NKJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Peter himself was Jewish and ate unkosher foods because the Holy Spirit wants to make the point that in Christ, Jew and Gentile are one nation under God.
                              Proof please?

                              Tanja
                              Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                              2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                              If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                              http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                              Comment

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