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Letters to the Seven Churches

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  • #31
    Originally posted by angelmike View Post

    Why did Jezebel teach? Was it right by Christ?
    A Bible search shows there are several other examples of a true prophetess. As far as I can tell the onus is on us to prove whether any prophet (male of female) is from God according to the criteria given:

    "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deu 13:1-3)

    "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deu 18:22)





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    • #32
      Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Son of the South View Post
        A Bible search shows there are several other examples of a true prophetess. As far as I can tell the onus is on us to prove whether any prophet (male of female) is from God according to the criteria given:

        "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deu 13:1-3)

        "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deu 18:22)
        I would like to refer to the underlined saying-what do you say?

        Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

        Then Paul says the following.

        1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
          The letters to the seven churches in Revelation are obviously intended for seven literal churches in Asia. But what—if any—relevance might they have for us today?

          Thoughts?
          Humanity has a sin problem.
          All issues of sin John brought to the human beings living in that time, attending those churches, are still applicable to humans today.

          The same admonishments to repentence from those sins are available today.

          The eternal rewards for staying faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ are still available to humans today as they were to those reading John’s letters for the first time.



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          • #35
            Originally posted by angelmike View Post

            I would like to refer to the underlined saying-what do you say?

            Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

            Then Paul says the following.

            1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
            Yes, of course.

            The question for me is not: "Why is she up there?" The question I ask myself is: "Where are the men?"

            Every time I point a finger, there are three pointing directly back at me and I think sometimes we get the leadership (or teaching in this case) we deserve.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              Two churches are mentioned during the GT by the term "candlesticks"

              Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

              Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


              I have always understood...candlesticks...was the head or leader of a church. Other Bible references indicates so.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by preston39 View Post

                I have always understood...candlesticks...was the head or leader of a church. Other Bible references indicates so.
                Rev says they are churches not a leader of a church:

                Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by preston39 View Post

                  I have always understood...candlesticks...was the head or leader of a church. Other Bible references indicates so.
                  The only reference to a leader in all seven churches is where the scriptures says, "this letter to the angel..."

                  In each letter, this refers to the (angel) person leading the church that the letter is addressed to. Meaning, the leader has a job to do sustaining any positive and correcting ALL the negatives. Of course, the sheep under each leader is responsible to listen to the corrective actions the leader needs to do, to help/guide/disciple those they are responsible for, to GET RIGHT with God.

                  (Yes, these letters were to all the OSAS theology believers too)
                  Slug1--out

                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                    I would like to refer to the underlined saying-what do you say?

                    Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

                    Then Paul says the following.

                    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
                    When the Spirit is poured upon the flesh of daughters/females, they prophesy. To prophesy is not the same as to teach. The church at Thyatira allowed that woman (a specific female called Jezebel) who calls herself (God does not call her) a prophetess, to teach (Rev. 2:20). Even if she was/is a genuine prophetess, her duty was to prophesy and not teach. The church at Thyatira had/has no business allowing a false prophetess to teach servants of God.

                    Paul (not the Lord Jesus Christ) did not allow a woman (a married female) to teach if the man (husband who is at least a teacher) is available to teach (1Ti 2:12). Paul must have figured that allowing a married woman to usurp authority of her husband is not proper.

                    In Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female. All teachers are one in Christ Jesus: Galatians 3:28 KJV declares:
                    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Glorious View Post

                      When the Spirit is poured upon the flesh of daughters/females, they prophesy. To prophesy is not the same as to teach. The church at Thyatira allowed that woman (a specific female called Jezebel) who calls herself (God does not call her) a prophetess, to teach (Rev. 2:20). Even if she was/is a genuine prophetess, her duty was to prophesy and not teach. The church at Thyatira had/has no business allowing a false prophetess to teach servants of God.

                      Paul (not the Lord Jesus Christ) did not allow a woman (a married female) to teach if the man (husband who is at least a teacher) is available to teach (1Ti 2:12). Paul must have figured that allowing a married woman to usurp authority of her husband is not proper.

                      In Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female. All teachers are one in Christ Jesus: Galatians 3:28 KJV declares:
                      There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                      This scripture brings no equality regarding authority on earth. On earth we still have responsibility to one another and the authority order has not yet been abolished by God.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        The only reference to a leader in all seven churches is where the scriptures says, "this letter to the angel..."

                        In each letter, this refers to the (angel) person leading the church that the letter is addressed to.
                        I don't recall the angels being called a leader. The letters are addressed to the angels but angels are messengers so I look at them not as leaders but the ones who deliver messages to the churches whether human messengers or heavenly messengers assigned to these churches.

                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                          I don't recall the angels being called a leader. The letters are addressed to the angels but angels are messengers so I look at them not as leaders but the ones who deliver messages to the churches whether human messengers or heavenly messengers assigned to these churches.
                          I agree, angel's aren't called, "a" leader except in the sense of leading other angels. Nor do angels lead churches and as you said, they can be messengers (to anyone). Thus even more evidence that the use of the term is not intended toward an actual angel. Yet the use of the term IS toward someone responsible for each of those churches. Do a study and you should find interesting results. For instance, the 1st church listed is Ephesus and based on many of the letters from Paul, we know that Timothy is left in the position of responsibility for the churches of that region. Many theologians argue the letter to that church WAS to Timothy, while many believe it was to a person he (Timothy) designated responsible over the region. I side with the latter position.
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                            I agree, angel's aren't called, "a" leader except in the sense of leading other angels. Nor do angels lead churches and as you said, they can be messengers (to anyone). Thus even more evidence that the use of the term is not intended toward an actual angel. Yet the use of the term IS toward someone responsible for each of those churches.
                            Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                            While some see this as a reference to 7 humans, I lean to them being 7 literal angels since humans aren't to my knowledge represented as stars like angels are.



                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                              Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                              While some see this as a reference to 7 humans, I lean to them being 7 literal angels since humans aren't to my knowledge represented as stars like angels are.


                              If I understand you, you are saying that based on this verse, the 7 letters are reproofing literal angels and not humans?
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                                If I understand you, you are saying that based on this verse, the 7 letters are reproofing literal angels and not humans?
                                It would be reproofing the idea that the 7 stars/angels are humans. I believe they are literal heavenly angels.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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