Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Christ : the end of the law through baptism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by randyk View Post

    It's debatable whether this is a difference in covenants at all. The Law of Moses applied to a theocracy in which all people were supposedly familiar with God's standards and professed allegiance to it. In that case, all marriages were not "unequally yoked," and based on faith and spirituality. In that case, the only basis for divorce would be 1) complete apostasy from the Law by one of them, or 2) compromise with God's Law by adopting a pagan lifestyle, which is sometimes in the Law called "adultery."

    These things remain for Christian marriages today. We are not to be "unequally yoked." And if one of the partners backslides, and either leaves Christianity or compromises it significantly, then the pagan behavior of the one can lead to severe consequences for the Christian partner, and divorce is desirable. There should, however, always be made some room for repentance.

    That's why, I believe, Jesus gave "adultery" as the only basis for divorce. It was because "adultery" represents a definitive abandonment of a Christian marriage by one of the partners, which the Christian, in his Christianity, must not tolerate. Adultery, however, is forgiveable like any other sin. Jesus' sense of "fornication," here is, like the Law, pointing to *defiant* sin, and not just careless behavior.



    This example, also, may not be different from Christian Law. One represents a standard of justice under conditions of theocracy, when one deliberately defies the Law of God to temporarily indulge in a pagan act. The other represents the condition in which the theocracy has broken down, and others are no longer living under God's standards. It then behooves us to "witness" to them. But there is a big difference between knocking out a tooth and slapping a cheek!



    Adultery was forgiven David under the Law of Moses, as well. Death for various offences may have depended on the attitude of the one sinning, whether the one was defying God's Law deliberately, or perhaps capitulating to weak human nature. A case of absolute defiance may be seen in the story of Phinehas in Num 25. He put to death a rebellious Israelite in full view of Israel.



    This is true. The Law gave Israel the knowledge of how to please God in that period of their history. It was a temporary covenant. It did give them a means to be temporarily in good standing with God, so that they could be blessed as a nation. But it was always known, and in fact predicted by Moses, that sin in Israel would eventually lead to their complete collapse as a nation. They would recover, but there would always be this problem of sin, destroying the nation.

    This was indeed the "knowledge of sin." It was also a knowledge that even under this Law they could not completely be recovered from the curse on Adam and Eve. They would always have the sin nature, and they would always have to die. This on top of the fact their nation would always fall--at least until Messiah comes a 2nd time.

    Christ's 1st Coming made a legal provision for his 2nd Coming. In the meantime individuals and remnants of nations are being saved. And nations still can temporarily be in covenant with God through the New Covenant. But this temporary state of cursing only lasts until Christ's 2nd Coming. Then Israel's national destiny will be fulfilled, and many Christians will enter into a glorified state of existence. I also believe the mortal world will attain to a limited degree of peace.



    Yes, the Law kept men back away from God because at that time the covenant society was mixed, and also because redemption had not yet been completed. Today, under the New Covenant, Christians can enjoy God's presence and the full knowledge of salvation because they are separated from pagans, and know that the legal basis of their salvation is completed.



    The Law of Moses is the whole of God's requirements of Israel, as prescribed by Moses. They were approx. 613 requirements, involving temple, priesthood, and sacrifices, along with lots of laws involving purification, their diet, and festivals. This Law was *only* for Israel, although the moral standards were given to witness to the whole world as to how men should live as individuals and within their own societies.

    The Law was good and spiritual in its own time, as long as God still acted in accord with that covenant. But God nullified it because Israel basically committed spiritual adultery, nullifying their marriage to God. God only maintained the marriage on the basis of His promise to Abraham that He would not give upon Israel until He had remade them in a way that they could be compliant.

    So the Law of Moses stands as an excellent testimony to what God is like, particularly in that time period. We just have to remember that no nation is under that covenant any longer, even if God's universal Law remains intact for all men.

    To go back to the Law, whether Jew or not, is to return to a system that God no longer honors. There may be some moral value there, but there is no real spiritual value there, since spirituality now has been relegated strictly and exclusively to Christ Jesus. All divine Law is now concentrated in him and in his word. All law must come through his redemption exclusively, and not in a way respecting the temple, the priesthood, or the sacrifices.



    Actually, Christ has summed up the Law in himself. The Law's justice is now his justice. Justice has not gone away. Mercy was always available. It's just that justice was severe for those whose sin was based on *defiance* and *rebellion.* In a theocracy, sin is going against the whole society and against the God whose rules govern that society. So when someone sinned under the Law in the sense of "defiance," it was a matter of court justice to deal strictly with these individuals.

    Today many sin without necessarily defying God, since they don't even know God or His laws. They roughly have a sense of conscience, and we are to witness to them, so that they can determine whether they want to defy God or to call upon His mercy.



    Well yes, of sorts. If we return to the Law of Moses, we will be leaving Christ and his system for a system that is no longer honored by God. In following a system not recognized by God we lose our spirituality, and become carnal, trying to do good autonomously, separate from God. That will lead to failure.

    We can certainly do good apart from being in covenant with God. But we cannot obtain salvation in that way.



    Totally agree! I hope you bear with me. I'm trying to give others the benefit that was not given to me.

    Bro we've done this discussion before , try to address in your thinking the scripture that explains it all rather than working your own ideas in ....look at where my thinking comes from , I'm always going to trust the things written and never stray , the understanding is fully available in the scripture. I would just ask you to consider these things , I have so much more scripture , but trying to keep it reletivity to the point.


    "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    ...And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11, 23-24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    The law of Moses is not Christian doctrine , the matter is addressed fully by Paul, barnabus , Peter , James and the whole council of apostles and elders. its a yoke , a burden around ones neck . A deep prayerful study with no pre built walls in our head , offers real understanding of the mosaic law , understanding we are not under its authority from the moment we are crucified with Christ for our sins.

    when it's not rejected because of,our own great understanding ....so ....the truth about the law according to scripture , which is already established above , not Christian law .

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    those of the mosaic law and it's directives , such as the believing Pharisees commanding men in Christ , they were to keep the law , are under the curse of sin and death. No man can be justified by the deeds in the mosaic law , because , The mosaic law is not of faith which Christians are to walk by the things Jesus preached are faith ( Romans 10:17)

    That's all right above in scripture should be acceptable. incase it's not again there's no justification in the directives of the law it's not possible To gain the righteousness of God , or any justification by it . It's not meant for that purpose .

    “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ( Romans 10:17) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified....

    ( do we go back to the law after conversion ?)

    ....For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:16, 18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    he died to release us from the law. If the law was meant for men's redemption and righteousness , Christ died for absolutely no reason. In vain. The law is not for those in Christ , it is meant for unrepentant sinners those who reject Christ and the truth he preached in the gospel . For those who live contrary to the gospel ...born again folks of faith would not be going back to this law ...here's that point

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
    ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    if someone is in Christ , they aren't identifiable to those folks , they died already because of thier sin , by faith in Christ.( see this threads opening) repenting and believing the gospel brings them out of that group who the law is for . It's given not to redeem those people but for this purpose ....

    "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭

    pretty plain and clear really . the law is not bad , it has a purposes one is above there , all things whatsoever the law says is meant to hold the sinners guilty , which is all the world guilty before God . because that is who will give thierthier and faith to Christ the savior. Part of achieving that , is to give the knowledge of sin as Paul shines a brief light upon here ....

    “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    the law teaches about the understanding of sin , not only Pauls example but all sin , knowing its price is death to the person who commits sin as the law clearly teaches . It's there to hold sinful people , guilty before God , so that they will repent and turn to Christ Jesus and his gospel in order to be redeemed. When they hear the far better message of the gospel. Made new , made children , made free , born again through believing the word of truth the gospel. The law was only meant and is only meant to,last until one dies in Christ by faith believing the death and resurrection is the atoning sacrifice for thier sins and being baptized into that death , because they do believe it.

    The law is not from the beginning , it was added because of mankinds sinfulness, given to sinful man well after the promises made to Abraham Isaac and Jacob . It was only until Christ was to come with the truth of God. Note the recurring theme referring back to the promised seed . Also that it's ordination is of angels....here's that

    “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; ( see Genesis 12,15, 18,22) and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    ...But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19, 22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    already established the law is not of faith , the gospel is of faith . The gospel is " repent Ye and believe the gospel and you shall be saved " but as Paul stated the law speaks differently ....

    "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. "

    now one might not grasp that the law of Moses can't be altered , it is one , the entire book and all that's written in it one sin and it breaks the entire law and convicts the sinner labeling them a transgressor , we don't get to obey one part of the law , and transgress another , it is one to sin under the law , proves the person is a transgressor ....that's here

    “If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV

    If I lie , I'm not different than an adulterer, no different than a thief we are both transgressors and convicted sinners awaiting death. The law of Liberty , is found in Christ , who already knows we're sinners , and came to save us from our sins . Our faith isn't in Moses , it's in Christ . Indeed there is a new covenant given by Christ .....it's not really even a question if you look tomwhatbthenscripture says ...the new covenant began with his words , and was put into effect when he shed his blood of the eternal covenant . That's all in scripture plainly .

    the key , is to allow the understanding that is written , into,your understanding it will correct and bring one into line with the thinking of God the Father , through Christ Jesus his Son. We don't grow by disputing what I think or you think , we grow by the word and learning that understanding ...discussing what God has clearly shouted to the ends of the earth . You will find that word from Matthew chaoter 1:1 to the last verse of the gospel according to John. Everything else helps us understand the gospel .

    God bless bro I'm always gonna stick with scripture and the understanding made plain by the lord in his words , and learn from that process , gonna be good soil , and not cast away the seeds of eternity .

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post


      Bro we've done this discussion before , try to address in your thinking the scripture that explains it all rather than working your own ideas in ....look at where my thinking comes from , I'm always going to trust the things written and never stray , the understanding is fully available in the scripture. I would just ask you to consider these things , I have so much more scripture , but trying to keep it reletivity to the point.
      Anybody can read or quote the Scriptures. Who can really understand them? This takes years of study and years of experience, equating our own spiritual experience with what the Scriptures have said about our spiritual experience. It is as important to relay what the Scriptures mean as to simply quote them and then makes claims about what they mean.

      Neh 8.3 He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand.

      If you can't see the Scriptural strain through the points I make, then I doubt we can get much farther for now.

      Originally posted by Follower
      The law of Moses is not Christian doctrine , the matter is addressed fully by Paul, barnabus , Peter , James and the whole council of apostles and elders. its a yoke , a burden around ones neck . A deep prayerful study with no pre built walls in our head , offers real understanding of the mosaic law , understanding we are not under its authority from the moment we are crucified with Christ for our sins.
      Why do you take up so much time, quoting Scriptures, etc. when we already agree on this? We are not under the Law of Moses!

      I have said so time and again, and I've been very explicit about it. The only "law" we are under is the same law that Adam and Eve were put under when they were created as Man--we are to live in the image and likeness of God.

      That is still true today, and will always be true, as long as we are Man! Some, including myself, refer to this today as the "Law of Christ." Since we now live in the image and likeness of God through the redemption of Christ, we live by the "Law of Christ."

      We do not live by the Law of Moses, but rather, by the commandments of Christ, which taught us to love God and to love one another, ie the Church. And to be consistent we are to love even our enemies.

      If you can't even understand what I wrote, why argue about it? I don't even know what we would be arguing if we agree that we are not under the Law of Moses?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by randyk View Post

        Anybody can read or quote the Scriptures. Who can really understand them? This takes years of study and years of experience, equating our own spiritual experience with what the Scriptures have said about our spiritual experience. It is as important to relay what the Scriptures mean as to simply quote them and then makes claims about what they mean.

        Neh 8.3 He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand.

        If you can't see the Scriptural strain through the points I make, then I doubt we can get much farther for now.



        Why do you take up so much time, quoting Scriptures, etc. when we already agree on this? We are not under the Law of Moses!

        I have said so time and again, and I've been very explicit about it. The only "law" we are under is the same law that Adam and Eve were put under when they were created as Man--we are to live in the image and likeness of God.

        That is still true today, and will always be true, as long as we are Man! Some, including myself, refer to this today as the "Law of Christ." Since we now live in the image and likeness of God through the redemption of Christ, we live by the "Law of Christ."

        We do not live by the Law of Moses, but rather, by the commandments of Christ, which taught us to love God and to love one another, ie the Church. And to be consistent we are to love even our enemies.

        If you can't even understand what I wrote, why argue about it? I don't even know what we would be arguing if we agree that we are not under the Law of Moses?
        Look deeper at the scriptures I left ....the point of using them , is to show the contrary nature of the two , because you began with the question of a difference in the covenants ...my point is that it's in scripture , I agree with some of what your a
        sayong . The point is the contrary purpose of the law and the gospel . They are not even close to the same , contrary the law doesn't fit in the gospel , shadows of the gospel are seen in the law , the law however was never for salvation , redemption , or having a right relationship with God . It's point was to crush the sinfulness in mankind , it's not only for Israel now , they were scattered into the earth carrying and preaching thier law , the curse of the law is upon al the world . It's meant to bring someone to thier knees understanding they need the savior . I wasn't attacking you , I was making the point they are absolutely different , at thier purpose , thier directives , thier promises , thier result , everything about them is opposite one meant to condemn , the other to redeem . Two parts of one plan , one had to be given first or no sinners would even know they were sinners , so they could never possibly repent . Do you see the point of those scriptures ?

        Just speaking in general terms , not an assault on your comment.

        others can explain things contrary to the scriptures so then when they see scripture , it sort of upsets them , they feel as if thier being attacked by someone ..... One of the issues with understanding , is the idea that it's so difficult and you need a special mind and lots of effort ...... That's why Jesus came and preached the gospel , it's why he repeatedly says " hear what I'm saying and believe and I will give you eternal life " it's not hard to believe the scriptures if you believe in the one who said it , it becomes hard when our mind , thinks it knows more than what is plain. We have everything we need in the scripture all the understanding is there plain , clear , thourough , repetetive . When we can't accept scripture Refuse to believe . It then seems really complex because what we find doesn't fit what we thought beforehand That makes it seem really complicated , but to go into understanding " if my thoughts conflict with Jesus thoughts ....I need to conform to his thinking , not try to conform his word to my thinking" there's not going to be any different doctrine. It's the gospel forever .

        I sometimes do see scriptural principles in some things you have to say , and honestly find other things you say , to be contrary to scripture or sort of like mysticism or something. its about believing the gospel , it's that simple , that's why Jesus came preaching the gospel , it's the only place faith , understanding , salvation is found . It's why the apostles are talking about the" hearing of faith " faith comes when you hear the gospel , and believe.

        That's where faith is found. he didn't come saying " if you spend years studying and all that then you'll be able to understand " he says anyone who believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved " is that hard to understand ? Or does it seem hard to understand if one makes the argument " well baptism isn't required , and the gospel isn't what Jesus preached and said it was " ? It only seems complicated when we reject it and try to explain why it's not true. It's about the hearing of faith . When one hears " repent and believe the gospel , be baptized and you shall be saved " should they believe that ? Or try to figure out why it isn't necassary or how to be saved some other way ? One is faith , the other is doubt and confusion a goose hint looking for why we shouldn't believe....


        I use scripture , always , because I believe the scripture over someone explaining things that aren't actually there. Not saying you ...And also , because it doesn't invite anyone to look at " my great understandings or my views , or my ideas " it's because we're in a forum discussing scripture and what it says . Why don't you ever use scripture ? But instead explain that no one really gets it ? It's strange to think Jesus came saying " hear me , I'm the one God sent , I'm the Lord over heaven and earth , repent , believe the gospel and you will be saved " yet ....no,one can really understand it unless they spend years studying ? it's simple actually , go into the world , preach the things Jesus taught , anyone who believes those things .....will be saved . Simplicity is truth .

        im not interested in things that aren't there , I'm more about what is there , I'll stick to that understanding , we sort of have had this same conversation many times . You already know I'm going to use scripture to support the things I've said . I fact anything I've ever said in this forum , I can provide scripture to support it . I'm not sure if you understand the importance of doing that , to those who believe what's there. To me , it's the most important factor , to stick to what the lord has said ....because there are many warnings about those who stray from it to not be led astray by them .

        If you'd like to discuss scripture , and what's there , always willing to do that , if not , I'm not really interested in learning anything that isn't actually there . Try to let the scripture , form what you believe .....I think you'll find that it's actually not hard to understand , a lot of prayer , and a willingness to seek him within his word and actually believe what you find ....is all it takes . Not saying you don't understand anything .....you do understand some things , I do also , so do others here and in many other places . But also , some things you aren't quite grasping yet ....like we all probably aren't .


        so yeah probably in the future , if you have something that is found in scripture , I'd like to hear it , not really wanting to debate and argue my thoughts v your thoughts ...but like to grow in Gods thoughts , found in his word . I'd appreciate if you did actually take the time to,use at least some scripture with some of what your saying , would maybe help me understand it a little better. If not that's cool also .


        either way though , God loves you , that should be pretty agreeable . Like I said about a year ago in a discussion with you , about the law and gospel , to me it's about what's written , and understanding those things , but there are plenty who like to discuss thier theological views also . Maybe you are more intellectual and would enjoy someone like walls , he also has very intellectual thoughts . My theology is found in the gospel, my theory is what Jesus taught his followers to believe. That's where I will always and forever abide , because that's what he said to do .

        anyways God bless and keep you




        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post

          Look deeper at the scriptures I left ....the point of using them , is to show the contrary nature of the two , because you began with the question of a difference in the covenants ...my point is that it's in scripture , I agree with some of what your a
          sayong . The point is the contrary purpose of the law and the gospel . They are not even close to the same , contrary the law doesn't fit in the gospel , shadows of the gospel are seen in the law , the law however was never for salvation , redemption , or having a right relationship with God .
          You see, this is the problem I have with this kind of dispensing of the value of the Law, except for some nefarious purpose like exposing our sin or our ineptitude. Yes, I see Paul say some things like that, but I think the beliefs coming out of a misreading of Paul in this leads to a very distorted view of what Paul was really saying.

          When Paul said the Law pointed out our ineptitude, it wasn't showing us that Israel couldn't do the Law. In fact, the Scriptures say the exact opposite, that the Law was God's word "near" them, so that they could "do" what was asked of them.

          The "ineptitude" part had to do with respect to obtaining eternal life. They could not obtain a level of holiness that qualifies for eternal life. 1st of all, it required perfection to obtain eternal life, and that already failed. 2ndly, if Israel, through the Law, could be honestly forgiven and then repent, obtaining through that repentance perfection, then perhaps they could obtain eternal life on their own, though the grace of the Law. But the fact is, nobody could become perfect--not even after repenting under the Law.

          So the Law was ineffective at producing perfection, and therefore, eternal life. And it did expose our sinfulness in the fact that it showed our sin nature, ever disqualifying us from eternal life through the works of the Law. Whatever the Law told Israel to do, they could do it. But the Law always exposed their sin nature, and their inability to remove their regular sins and failures. When they were told not to covet, they could indeed avoid trying to take their neighbor's possessions. But unavoidably, the Law also exposed their inward thoughts, that really did, at times, want something not theirs.

          This is a far cry from saying Israel couldn't actually *do* what the Law commanded them to do. They just couldn't be perfect through it. They could, however, please God as a temporary remedy, to keep them in covenant with God, until final redemption came.

          The way I say it is that the Law provided all of the things Christ brought--only in an incomplete way. Redemption was temporal. Forgiveness was real, but Israel would sin again, and need forgiveness again. The Law brought righteousness, but it could not thereby bring eternal life.

          I'll have to finish later...

          Comment

          Working...
          X