Jacobs ladder ....and the gospel.

[Follower1977]

you may have noticed this , if not it's interesting I think , just sharing a study that could offer a little faith booster in Christ Jesus ...if considered God bless..

“And Jacob went out from Beer–sheba, and went toward Haran. ......and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven:

and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac:

the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south:

and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”
Genesis 28:10-14 KJV

so then consider

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....In him was life; and the life was the light of men....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.” ( the word made flesh of course is the son)
John 1:1, 4, 14 KJV


"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”
John 1:51 KJV

"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.....Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:62-63, 68-69 KJV

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.....

He that cometh from above is above all.....: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; ....He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth the Spirit , not by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:13, 16-18, 31-36 KJV


“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

....Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”
John 7:16-17, 28-29 KJV

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Then said they unto him, Who art thou?

And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

....Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word....

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not....Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:23-28, 31-32, 34, 36, 42-43, 45, 51 KJV

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:49-50 KJV

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:38-40 KJV

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him....

...If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth...At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him....

...Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 14:1-4, 6-7, 10, 15-17, 20-21, 23-26 KJV

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
John 20:17 KJV

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV



Domyou see the ladder reaching to heaven ? Look up and see the lord God bless you in the things of Jesus Christ

[Walls]

you may have noticed this , if not it's interesting I think , just sharing a study that could offer a little faith booster in Christ Jesus ...if considered God bless..

“And Jacob went out from Beer–sheba, and went toward Haran. ......and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven:

and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac:

the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south:

and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”
Genesis 28:10-14 KJV

so then consider

....



Domyou see the ladder reaching to heaven ? Look up and see the lord God bless you in the things of Jesus Christ

The Ladder of Jacobs dream is a deep revelation of the Church. In both cases the context is BETH-EL, meaning, "the House of God". There are some seeming anomalies which have to be cleared up before the revelation is clear.

1. The Ladder is set up on earth. If it had to do with angels, it would have to be set up in heaven because angels are heavenly and they live there
2. The angels are "ASCENDING" first and then "DESCENDING". If angels were heavenly in origin and habitat, they should be "descending" FIRST
3. Angels do not make up the House of God. Men do.
4. The sign of this House is a stone which was used lying down for the head of a man (Jacob), and then set upright to mark the house of God

The answer lies in (i) the full picture of the gospel of John, and (ii) the context of Chapter 1 of John

1. John's gospel is different from the other three gospels. It is the revelation of Christ as God, becoming Man in order to get God into man and man into God. It is the expanded view of what would have happened if Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life. So, in summarizing the whole Book, John 20:30-31 says;

³⁰ "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
³¹ But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."


2. Chapter 1 of John is the introduction to the book and ends with God's House - the place where He wants to live ON EARTH. For this HOUSE God needs 7 things. (i) God - the One for Whom the House is for, (ii) God becoming Man - the incarnation, (iii) the Man becoming the Lamb to deal with sin and sins, (iv) the Holy Spirit to supply and execute this plan, (v) Nathaniel, which means "gift of God", (vi) Peter, which means "a stone", and (vii) the Ladder - for which we now seek the meaning.

In Chapter 14 of John, our Lord Jesus predicts that He must (i) GO, and (ii) go to PREPARE - so that the Fathers House with its many "abodes" will be occupied. And this our Lord did. He went to His death, He went to Hades for three days, and then He went to the Father. How do we know this? On the morning of His resurrection He met women and said that they were NOT to touch Him because He had "not YET ascended to His Father (Jn.20:17). But that night He appeared to His disciples and told them to touch and handle Him (Lk.24:39). Also, Hebrews 9:12 says that He entered the Holy Place in heaven to present His blood. So, the House of God could not be built until sin ans sins were put away, and that could only happen when our Lord Jesus had been RESURRECTED. Our Lord's resurrection was proof that every little sin had been dealt with. The wages of sin is death and if one little sin remained, God could not have legally raised our Lord from death. So John 7:39 tells us; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)". The condition for the disciple receiving the holy Spirit was the RESURRECTION of our Lord Jesus.

And truly, on the day of resurrection, our Lord "breathed the Holy Spirit" INTO His disciples. On that day the disciples BECAME THE HOUSE OF GOD and the "many abodes" of Chapter 14 were filled. God got into man, and man got into God. So the House of God - BETH-EL, is accomplished by our Lord Jesus in RESURRECTION. The LADDER is our Lord Jesus - a Man of the earth, making it possible for other men to ascend to heaven to become heavenly in nature by rebirth "from above", and then returning to earth as heavenly creatures to be God House ON EARTH - the Church. God's House is built because f Christ's resurrection first, and then the resurrection LIFE that is imparted when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer. Can we cnfirm this? YES! In Revelation 21, when the New Jerusalem is described, it is described as the "Tabernacle of God" (Rev.21:2-3) and when it is measured in Revelation 21:17, it is found to have the measure OF AN ANGEL!

The House of God, BETH-EL, is made of Christ in resurrection - the LADDER, and men in resurrection - men who cannot die again having the divine life, and who then are like angels. Luke 20:36tells us, "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

The Stone confirms this understanding. God's House is built with A SINGLE STONE as foundation with many small stones as the materials (Matt.16:18). Jacob used the Stone as a pillow. It lay flat - indicating Christ's death. But when he names the place BETH-EL, he places the stone UPRIGHT, indicating Christ's resurrection. To summarize:

• God's desire is to live IN man. That is, man would be God's House ON EARTH. Corporate man, the Church, would be BETH-EL,
• God could not come to dwell IN man because of sin
• Christ dies for sin and sins, and God confirms this with resurrection
• Christ the resurrected One Who put away sins is the LADDER
• Men who believe in Christ receive the heavenly LIFE but stay on earth to be stones that build the house of God
• Only men who possess the resurrection and divine life of God can be the House of God

[Follower1977]

The Ladder of Jacobs dream is a deep revelation of the Church. In both cases the context is BETH-EL, meaning, "the House of God". There are some seeming anomalies which have to be cleared up before the revelation is clear.

1. The Ladder is set up on earth. If it had to do with angels, it would have to be set up in heaven because angels are heavenly and they live there
2. The angels are "ASCENDING" first and then "DESCENDING". If angels were heavenly in origin and habitat, they should be "descending" FIRST
3. Angels do not make up the House of God. Men do.
4. The sign of this House is a stone which was used lying down for the head of a man (Jacob), and then set upright to mark the house of God

The answer lies in (i) the full picture of the gospel of John, and (ii) the context of Chapter 1 of John

1. John's gospel is different from the other three gospels. It is the revelation of Christ as God, becoming Man in order to get God into man and man into God. It is the expanded view of what would have happened if Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life. So, in summarizing the whole Book, John 20:30-31 says;

³⁰ "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
³¹ But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."


2. Chapter 1 of John is the introduction to the book and ends with God's House - the place where He wants to live ON EARTH. For this HOUSE God needs 7 things. (i) God - the One for Whom the House is for, (ii) God becoming Man - the incarnation, (iii) the Man becoming the Lamb to deal with sin and sins, (iv) the Holy Spirit to supply and execute this plan, (v) Nathaniel, which means "gift of God", (vi) Peter, which means "a stone", and (vii) the Ladder - for which we now seek the meaning.

In Chapter 14 of John, our Lord Jesus predicts that He must (i) GO, and (ii) go to PREPARE - so that the Fathers House with its many "abodes" will be occupied. And this our Lord did. He went to His death, He went to Hades for three days, and then He went to the Father. How do we know this? On the morning of His resurrection He met women and said that they were NOT to touch Him because He had "not YET ascended to His Father (Jn.20:17). But that night He appeared to His disciples and told them to touch and handle Him (Lk.24:39). Also, Hebrews 9:12 says that He entered the Holy Place in heaven to present His blood. So, the House of God could not be built until sin ans sins were put away, and that could only happen when our Lord Jesus had been RESURRECTED. Our Lord's resurrection was proof that every little sin had been dealt with. The wages of sin is death and if one little sin remained, God could not have legally raised our Lord from death. So John 7:39 tells us; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)". The condition for the disciple receiving the holy Spirit was the RESURRECTION of our Lord Jesus.

And truly, on the day of resurrection, our Lord "breathed the Holy Spirit" INTO His disciples. On that day the disciples BECAME THE HOUSE OF GOD and the "many abodes" of Chapter 14 were filled. God got into man, and man got into God. So the House of God - BETH-EL, is accomplished by our Lord Jesus in RESURRECTION. The LADDER is our Lord Jesus - a Man of the earth, making it possible for other men to ascend to heaven to become heavenly in nature by rebirth "from above", and then returning to earth as heavenly creatures to be God House ON EARTH - the Church. God's House is built because f Christ's resurrection first, and then the resurrection LIFE that is imparted when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer. Can we cnfirm this? YES! In Revelation 21, when the New Jerusalem is described, it is described as the "Tabernacle of God" (Rev.21:2-3) and when it is measured in Revelation 21:17, it is found to have the measure OF AN ANGEL!

The House of God, BETH-EL, is made of Christ in resurrection - the LADDER, and men in resurrection - men who cannot die again having the divine life, and who then are like angels. Luke 20:36tells us, "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

The Stone confirms this understanding. God's House is built with A SINGLE STONE as foundation with many small stones as the materials (Matt.16:18). Jacob used the Stone as a pillow. It lay flat - indicating Christ's death. But when he names the place BETH-EL, he places the stone UPRIGHT, indicating Christ's resurrection. To summarize:

• God's desire is to live IN man. That is, man would be God's House ON EARTH. Corporate man, the Church, would be BETH-EL,
• God could not come to dwell IN man because of sin
• Christ dies for sin and sins, and God confirms this with resurrection
• Christ the resurrected One Who put away sins is the LADDER
• Men who believe in Christ receive the heavenly LIFE but stay on earth to be stones that build the house of God
• Only men who possess the resurrection and divine life of God can be the House of God

Yea....do you see that Jesus Christ is standing atop the ladder? And that Jesus came from heaven to earth ? And then returned back to heaven ? And also that he makes promises to go prepare a place and return to bring us " where we cannot go unless we follow the way ? Truth life ??? Which reaches from earth to heaven ?


“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,”
Acts 2:32-34 KJV


while te the church resulted from Jesus being exalted , it's a prophetic dream pointing to the gospel as so many o.t. Events and prophecy is .

Jesus spoke the everlasting word of God is the point , he came from the father , and returned to the father and by this truth , the Holy Ghost was shed abroad into the hearts of believers

There are three who bear witness in heaven , the father in heaven , the word Jesus who's in heaven .....and the Holy Ghost who is in the believer .......and these three are one .

[Walls]

Yea....do you see that Jesus Christ is standing atop the ladder? And that Jesus came from heaven to earth ? And then returned back to heaven ? And also that he makes promises to go prepare a place and return to bring us " where we cannot go unless we follow the way ? Truth life ??? Which reaches from earth to heaven ?


“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,”
Acts 2:32-34 KJV


while te the church resulted from Jesus being exalted , it's a prophetic dream pointing to the gospel as so many o.t. Events and prophecy is .

Jesus spoke the everlasting word of God is the point , he came from the father , and returned to the father and by this truth , the Holy Ghost was shed abroad into the hearts of believers

There are three who bear witness in heaven , the father in heaven , the word Jesus who's in heaven .....and the Holy Ghost who is in the believer .......and these three are one .

Thanks for your reply. I can see your reasoning, and agree with most of it. God bless.

[Follower1977]

Thanks for your reply. I can see your reasoning, and agree with most of it. God bless.

Yes brother I wasn't disagreeing with yours either , sort of the church is " the body of Christ " , so what your saying I'm also looking into at the moment , and appreciate you taking the time to be thorough in your thoughts . God bless you also brother walls ....


just st an attempt at a friendly discussion ....I've been noticing that each time the gospels promise " through thy seed , shall all nations ( or families /people) of the earth shall be blessed "

Whether Abraham when he offered Isaac , his only begotten son as a sacrifice and said to Isaac in faith "God himself will provide the lamb for the offering " later you have Gods only begotten , who John calls the lamb of God .... sacrificed . But when it happened in Abrahams time , is the same promise of the gospel that began through Noah's covenant , and then of course begins with Abraham " all nations will be blessed in you " in chapter 12 ...after this , it seems as if there always a figure like with Jacobs ladder , or for Abraham and Isaac , the sacrifice and the fact that Isaac lived through this " sacrifice " being a figure of the resurrection we learn in Hebrews 11.

Anyways , just something I've been noticing in study that promise ir seems like you can follow it for Eve through up until Jesus .....and there's a figure that points tomchrist and the things we see and learn in the gospel

[Walls]

Yes brother I wasn't disagreeing with yours either , sort of the church is " the body of Christ " , so what your saying I'm also looking into at the moment , and appreciate you taking the time to be thorough in your thoughts . God bless you also brother walls ....


just st an attempt at a friendly discussion ....I've been noticing that each time the gospels promise " through thy seed , shall all nations ( or families /people) of the earth shall be blessed "

Whether Abraham when he offered Isaac , his only begotten son as a sacrifice and said to Isaac in faith "God himself will provide the lamb for the offering " later you have Gods only begotten , who John calls the lamb of God .... sacrificed . But when it happened in Abrahams time , is the same promise of the gospel that began through Noah's covenant , and then of course begins with Abraham " all nations will be blessed in you " in chapter 12 ...after this , it seems as if there always a figure like with Jacobs ladder , or for Abraham and Isaac , the sacrifice and the fact that Isaac lived through this " sacrifice " being a figure of the resurrection we learn in Hebrews 11.

Anyways , just something I've been noticing in study that promise ir seems like you can follow it for Eve through up until Jesus .....and there's a figure that points tomchrist and the things we see and learn in the gospel

I understand the Covenant of Promise to Abraham thus:


God's original purpose with man was that He would have men (plural) in the image and likeness of God subduing and ruling the earth. Then came the fall, and men subdued and rued the earth, but because they were not at all like God, all peoples under their rule suffer. So Proverbs 29:2 says; "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." A huge part of men's sufferings on earth are because of unrighteous government. But God had not not forgotten His Plan.

So God starts a line of MEN who will eventually produce MEN in the image and likeness of God, and who will rule. So you will have TWO Parties; (i) those in the image and likeness of God who rule the earth, and (ii) those people who are left and who are ruled - the families of the earth. Because the RULERS are in the image and likeness of God, these FAMILIES of the earth will be blessed. So God starts this line with Abraham and Abraham produces a line of SEED that ends with Israel, who have the Law of God. The Law of God can bring justice to the earth - BUT NOT BLESSING! The reason is that Law points out sin. It condemns. It calls for retribution. So SINFUL men cannot be blessed by the Law.

So God sends a SPECIFIC SEED via this line of Abraham's SEED - Jesus. This Jesus (i) IS TWO crucial things, and (ii) He does TWO crucial things.
1. He is born to Mary of Abraham's line, making Him a Man
2. He is born of the Holy Spirit, making Him God AND breaking the sinful line from Adam (for the sinful nature is transmitted by the man - Rom.5:12)

1. He sets aside sins by being a sinless Substitute
2. He adds the whole human experience of incarnation, birth, living, suffering, dying and rising from the dead to His divinity.

Any man who BELIEVES in Him and confesses Him GETS THE FULL PACKAGE OF CHRIST'S WORK AND CHRIST'S HUMANITY. So God now has a group of men who are permeated with Christ. And so, just as Christ is, "... the image of the invisible God" (Col.1:15), God can carry out His plan in Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." So Colossians 3:10 tells us that we, the Church; "... have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him". God finally, through a Seed of Abraham, produces a group of men who have the potential to be in the image of God, and, when renewed, can rule like God would.

Thus, through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, all of whom received the Promise, God has raised up a Seed, that those who BELIEVE in Him, can bring the nature of God AND APPLY IT AS RULERS. In this way, all the families of the earth will be blessed. But note; It is NOT, "In your Seed will ALL MEN be blessed". It is, "In your Seed will ALL FAMILIES be blessed". That means that each family of men will be blessed but not EVERYBODY of the family. Why? Because some men will vehemently oppose Jesus, and will make themselves ENEMIES of God. And a man who makes an enemy of Jesus is CURSED (Gen.12:3). So, ALL FAMILIES are blessed by the righteous RULE that these men in Christ, the Church, bring, but some men, who have made themselves enemies of Christ, will be cursed. But this too is a blessing for the Families of the earth. The evil men of this world are SUBDUED and in the Lake of Fire where they can do no more harm to the Families of the earth.

BETH-EL is a wonderful thing. It is

• The House of God ON EARTH
• The Testimony of God ON EARTH
• The Light of God ON EARTH
• The Salt of God ON EARTH
• The BRIDE for Jesus
• The NEW GOVERNMENT ON EARTH

[Follower1977]

I understand the Covenant of Promise to Abraham thus:


God's original purpose with man was that He would have men (plural) in the image and likeness of God subduing and ruling the earth. Then came the fall, and men subdued and rued the earth, but because they were not at all like God, all peoples under their rule suffer. So Proverbs 29:2 says; "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." A huge part of men's sufferings on earth are because of unrighteous government. But God had not not forgotten His Plan.

So God starts a line of MEN who will eventually produce MEN in the image and likeness of God, and who will rule. So you will have TWO Parties; (i) those in the image and likeness of God who rule the earth, and (ii) those people who are left and who are ruled - the families of the earth. Because the RULERS are in the image and likeness of God, these FAMILIES of the earth will be blessed. So God starts this line with Abraham and Abraham produces a line of SEED that ends with Israel, who have the Law of God. The Law of God can bring justice to the earth - BUT NOT BLESSING! The reason is that Law points out sin. It condemns. It calls for retribution. So SINFUL men cannot be blessed by the Law.

So God sends a SPECIFIC SEED via this line of Abraham's SEED - Jesus. This Jesus (i) IS TWO crucial things, and (ii) He does TWO crucial things.
1. He is born to Mary of Abraham's line, making Him a Man
2. He is born of the Holy Spirit, making Him God AND breaking the sinful line from Adam (for the sinful nature is transmitted by the man - Rom.5:12)

1. He sets aside sins by being a sinless Substitute
2. He adds the whole human experience of incarnation, birth, living, suffering, dying and rising from the dead to His divinity.

Any man who BELIEVES in Him and confesses Him GETS THE FULL PACKAGE OF CHRIST'S WORK AND CHRIST'S HUMANITY. So God now has a group of men who are permeated with Christ. And so, just as Christ is, "... the image of the invisible God" (Col.1:15), God can carry out His plan in Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." So Colossians 3:10 tells us that we, the Church; "... have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him". God finally, through a Seed of Abraham, produces a group of men who have the potential to be in the image of God, and, when renewed, can rule like God would.

Thus, through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, all of whom received the Promise, God has raised up a Seed, that those who BELIEVE in Him, can bring the nature of God AND APPLY IT AS RULERS. In this way, all the families of the earth will be blessed. But note; It is NOT, "In your Seed will ALL MEN be blessed". It is, "In your Seed will ALL FAMILIES be blessed". That means that each family of men will be blessed but not EVERYBODY of the family. Why? Because some men will vehemently oppose Jesus, and will make themselves ENEMIES of God. And a man who makes an enemy of Jesus is CURSED (Gen.12:3). So, ALL FAMILIES are blessed by the righteous RULE that these men in Christ, the Church, bring, but some men, who have made themselves enemies of Christ, will be cursed. But this too is a blessing for the Families of the earth. The evil men of this world are SUBDUED and in the Lake of Fire where they can do no more harm to the Families of the earth.

BETH-EL is a wonderful thing. It is

• The House of God ON EARTH
• The Testimony of God ON EARTH
• The Light of God ON EARTH
• The Salt of God ON EARTH
• The BRIDE for Jesus
• The NEW GOVERNMENT ON EARTH

Oh , ok.....well it's actually stated a few ways both all families , all peoples ....all nations ...in the end the promise to Abraham regarding Jesus , is for anyone who will accept and believe the gospel he sent out to the world the same he preached himself Matthew 28:18-20... Which is what shapes men , or conforms them back into the image of God , by removing the sin imposed through deception and false knowledge ....the truth redeems the mind and heart and therefore the life.


What is your thinking regarding " the children of God " ? Aren't the children of God , those who are made in his image ? And isn't that something that can only happen through believing the gospel and being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ....his only begotten ? How do we become " the image of God " ? And is there any other way to be saved from eternal damnation ?

isnthere a a difference in Jew and gentile since the gospel was sent forth ?


im sorry for all the questions I'm trying to hone in on what your expressing a bit more , if your able or willing to answer , understand I'm not agreeing or disagreeing at the moment , I'm just trying to fill in some gaps for myself , so I can understand what you are actually saying.


let let me say that I think I might possibly have some agreement , I'm just not clear on some things , again , probably my lack of intellect lol , but of I could get you to answer sort of briefly are the children of God , those who are made in his image ? And if so , how does a world full of sinners who is all men you see no one is righteous ...so how does it go from sinners and they become , the children of God made in his image ?


just ust those to points if you can answer , I think I would understand more of what you are saying I should also leave this

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

.....as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:1-2, 4, 9, 12-14, 16-17 KJV




Power to become the sons of God ....citizens of the kingdom of God , through the manifestation of the promise made , to Abraham ....not to the flesh of Abram and the flesh of his seed ......but to the faith of Abraham , and those who will have faith in the seed of promise manifest in the flesh and revealed to the earth in the gospel which has spread to every corner of the world , just like he said it would ....anywhere you love now someone close by is preaching the name of Jesus , whether correctly of not , his name is everywhere the bible the most distributed book in the history of mankind ......but do men believe is the question

[Walls]

Oh , ok.....well it's actually stated a few ways both all families , all peoples ....all nations ...in the end the promise to Abraham regarding Jesus , is for anyone who will accept and believe the gospel he sent out to the world the same he preached himself Matthew 28:18-20... Which is what shapes men , or conforms them back into the image of God , by removing the sin imposed through deception and false knowledge ....the truth redeems the mind and heart and therefore the life.


What is your thinking regarding " the children of God " ? Aren't the children of God , those who are made in his image ? And isn't that something that can only happen through believing the gospel and being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ....his only begotten ? How do we become " the image of God " ? And is there any other way to be saved from eternal damnation ?

isnthere a a difference in Jew and gentile since the gospel was sent forth ?


im sorry for all the questions I'm trying to hone in on what your expressing a bit more , if your able or willing to answer , understand I'm not agreeing or disagreeing at the moment , I'm just trying to fill in some gaps for myself , so I can understand what you are actually saying.


let let me say that I think I might possibly have some agreement , I'm just not clear on some things , again , probably my lack of intellect lol , but of I could get you to answer sort of briefly are the children of God , those who are made in his image ? And if so , how does a world full of sinners who is all men you see no one is righteous ...so how does it go from sinners and they become , the children of God made in his image ?


just ust those to points if you can answer , I think I would understand more of what you are saying I should also leave this

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

.....as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:1-2, 4, 9, 12-14, 16-17 KJV




Power to become the sons of God ....citizens of the kingdom of God , through the manifestation of the promise made , to Abraham ....not to the flesh of Abram and the flesh of his seed ......but to the faith of Abraham , and those who will have faith in the seed of promise manifest in the flesh and revealed to the earth in the gospel which has spread to every corner of the world , just like he said it would ....anywhere you love now someone close by is preaching the name of Jesus , whether correctly of not , his name is everywhere the bible the most distributed book in the history of mankind ......but do men believe is the question

I think you've just about nailed it. John 1:12-13 says that if we BELIEVE (have faith) in Jesus, we undergo a new, and different birth by the Holy Spirit, which makes us the sons of God. But we have to be careful. There are FOUR different "sons of God" in the Bible.

1. The angels are called "sons of God" (Gen.6:2-4, Job.1:6, 2:1, 38:7)
2. Adam is called "son of God" (Lk.3:38)
3. Our Lord Jesus is called "Son of God" (Jn.20:31)
4. And we who undergo the New Birth are called "sons of God" (Jn.1:12-13; 1st Jn.3:1-2)

There is actually no problem - if we investigate the matter. The term "son(s) of God" denotes that the living creature HAD ITS ORIGIN IN GOD. And the CONTEXT must tell us WHAT TYPE OF ORIGIN.

1. The angels were made "spirits" by God but do not possess God's divine life
2. Adam is made a "soul" but has the capacity to have the divine Life of God
3. Our Lord Jesus is a Man but "in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily"
4. We are made a "soul" but can undergo an-other birth in our spirits (Jn.3:6)

ORIGIN is EVERYTHING.

To be in the image and likeness of God, we just need a mirror. When a man looks in a mirror he sees his "image and likeness". If he smile, the image smiles. If he moves his head to the left the image moves. The image IS NOT HIM, but it reflects him. Before the fall, Adam was a perfect MAN. God gave Adam FOUR DUTIES;

1. To be in the image and likeness of Him, that is, to reflect Him
2. To be a Bride for Christ
3. To subdue and rule the earth
4. To fence about and bring to order the Garden of Eden (lit. Heb.)

In his perfection as a man, Adam could display, or reflect much of God. But in the matter of being a Bride, he was woefully short. The narrative of Eve shows us why. Before Adam was paraded all the animals, and he gave them names. But no matter how magnificent the animals were, there was NOT ONE that was up to his standard. So God lets him sleep and takes a rib from him. Eve is then BUILT from Adam - that is, she had the SAME NATURE. And so we, who are to be the Bride of Christ, need Christ's divine nature to be up to His standard. To subdue and rule the earth, and to eject the serpent from Eden was a task above Adam's abilities. Angels are greater then men, so in his humanity Adam was not equipped to do the job. That is why God put him in front of the Tree of LIFE. If Adam had eaten from that Tree, he would have possessed to divine LIFE of God. Like the mirror, he would not be God, but he would have had the superior advantages of the LIFE that Jesus possessed.

An example might help. Take a dog. Is he not a wonderful creature? He is always happy to see you. He forgives you immediately if you step on his paw. He follows you into any dangerous situation. He is happy with you and sad with you. He is loyal. And even if you don't feed him, he will still stay with you without complaining. A dog is actually much better in character than most of us Christians. But in the final analysis HE IS JUST A DOG and you would not marry him. He loves a steak like you do. He will curl up with you in front of the fire. But he will not appreciate the Opera, or a football match. He will immediately fall asleep in an art gallery and you can tell him your troubles but he won't understand. He is a wonderful creature but he has the DOG-LIFE, not HUMAN-LIFE. So also, to be the Bride of Christ we need to have His LIFE - His NATURE.

EVERYTHING IS TIED UP TO THE TREE OF LIFE. And this is what the gospel of John is about - How to get God's LIFE.

Hope this helps a bit. God bless.

P.S. I really don't mind about you, or anyone, not having the same view of things. We are all in a process of maturing, both in LIFE and in DOCTRINE. Do you know how many times I had to change my view of a certain thing in the last 30 years? Hold your position UNTIL better information comes to you. God will honor you if you are honest with His Words.

[Follower1977]

Yes I don't mind either walls and feel the exact same way , discussion is good , but it doesn't always lead to the other person agreeing with us . I've found even at the time if there's no agreement , it does cause consideration of things and that then can be a catalyst for a new direction we find our had seen before in scripture ...I'm not sure that makes sense. I for surrrre agree with an amen to you very last sentance , that's AMEN . See some other really good stuff also in the first half of that post thanks for taking the time ....

I do think you might consider what you are saying about " the line Gid created earlier and why they are the sons referred to in Genesis 6. Just for consideration bro...


The sons of God in Genesis 6 is the line of Seth .....the line which you explained earlier , God had established from Seth all the way to the messiah . And Seth is the seed promised first to eve ...." Her seed will bruise his heel and crush the serpents head" Seth is the first man of that promise which we've been talking leads to Christ ....Adam as you said was " the son of God " as Cain and Abel reflect the new nature of good and evil the first kills the seed of promise and Seth , is given in his place soon after men began to call upon the name of the lord ..... Did you notice , they called on the name of the lord " in those days ? But in the law times , he just says " tell them I am that I am ...Moses , tell them I am sent you ....then of course says I am the God of thy fathers ect....but no name to call upon .

But they aren't calling on his name like they were in the first generations , also notice the first genrrations of men ....they lives hundreds of years before death . I'm not sure if one bite of the tree of life , would then mean eternal life ....Notice of this line of Seth , one , Enoch , did not even ever die . But then at the end of the generations in Noah's time God limits mans years to 120 ....

Remember that Cain ....he went away also and had children these are the sons of men. . But Seth , replaced Abel , and that became the seed promise we're taking about here , seths line ....are the sons of God , the line of the messiah descending from Adam , to Noah , to Abraham , to Jesse , to David.....to Jesus ....


seths line , began to mingle with cains line and his descendants the sons of God ....seths line .....went to the daughters of men , cains line . When it says " men of renown and refers to them as Giants ....it's saying they were men of great renown ....probably large in stature , given they also lived hundreds of years 700 800 900 plus years ....I really think that we are a very degraded version of what we were in the beginning.


I would definAtely say though it's not just johns gospel we need to impart into our hearts and minds keeping faith and building it in his things , the other gospels really do a great cleansing work in the mind and heart regarding Real repentance that will last ....actually growing into that new creation .....God bless brother

[Walls]

Yes I don't mind either walls and feel the exact same way , discussion is good , but it doesn't always lead to the other person agreeing with us . I've found even at the time if there's no agreement , it does cause consideration of things and that then can be a catalyst for a new direction we find our had seen before in scripture ...I'm not sure that makes sense. I for surrrre agree with an amen to you very last sentance , that's AMEN . See some other really good stuff also in the first half of that post thanks for taking the time ....

I do think you might consider what you are saying about " the line Gid created earlier and why they are the sons referred to in Genesis 6. Just for consideration bro...


The sons of God in Genesis 6 is the line of Seth .....the line which you explained earlier , God had established from Seth all the way to the messiah . And Seth is the seed promised first to eve ...." Her seed will bruise his heel and crush the serpents head" Seth is the first man of that promise which we've been talking leads to Christ ....Adam as you said was " the son of God " as Cain and Abel reflect the new nature of good and evil the first kills the seed of promise and Seth , is given in his place soon after men began to call upon the name of the lord ..... Did you notice , they called on the name of the lord " in those days ? But in the law times , he just says " tell them I am that I am ...Moses , tell them I am sent you ....then of course says I am the God of thy fathers ect....but no name to call upon .

But they aren't calling on his name like they were in the first generations , also notice the first genrrations of men ....they lives hundreds of years before death . I'm not sure if one bite of the tree of life , would then mean eternal life ....Notice of this line of Seth , one , Enoch , did not even ever die . But then at the end of the generations in Noah's time God limits mans years to 120 ....

Remember that Cain ....he went away also and had children these are the sons of men. . But Seth , replaced Abel , and that became the seed promise we're taking about here , seths line ....are the sons of God , the line of the messiah descending from Adam , to Noah , to Abraham , to Jesse , to David.....to Jesus ....


seths line , began to mingle with cains line and his descendants the sons of God ....seths line .....went to the daughters of men , cains line . When it says " men of renown and refers to them as Giants ....it's saying they were men of great renown ....probably large in stature , given they also lived hundreds of years 700 800 900 plus years ....I really think that we are a very degraded version of what we were in the beginning.


I would definAtely say though it's not just johns gospel we need to impart into our hearts and minds keeping faith and building it in his things , the other gospels really do a great cleansing work in the mind and heart regarding Real repentance that will last ....actually growing into that new creation .....God bless brother

I am familiar with your theory. As it isn't actually the theme of the thread, I'm happy to leave it at that. We could get sidetracked for ten postings and still not reach agreement. How about that brother? We are in agreement with the "sons of God" in the New Testament and that is what is important.

Take care and go well brother.

[Follower1977]

Are you upset bro ? I hope not I actually enjoy your ideas a an if I don't always see things the same , never have meant to offend you or any thing . ,

sure i I respect you keeping peace , I think that's what you are saying , you'd rather not argue .... I like to sort of follow where the discussion leads and forgetting about any perceived offense ..... So you don't have to respond at all but if you would consider some scripture .....never hurts ....id probably post it anyways so feel free to disregard if you wish bro .l.thanks for the discussion tho and God bless



to to the serpent it's said ....

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Genesis 3:15 KJV



"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:( servants of sin)

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”
1 John 3:10-12 KJV


Cain is cursed by God , for killing abels....not to death but to exile where he creates many people....

...And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: .......(many people are established from Cain...)

But The line of the promised seed , the children of God or sons of God , is established here ...

" And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”
Genesis 4:1-8, 10-11, 14-26 KJV

remember the word ...“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Genesis 3:15 KJV

so you clearly have a line through Seth , who are calling upon the name of the lord ...and you have a different people , also mankind , but those born of Cain , who was sent out away to dwell apart from the lords people ...

, those calling upon his name , through the chosen line of the promised seed are the sons of God , ...like Christians who call upon his name are .


Adam was the father of Cain and also seth, by the flesh , cain loved sin and seths line was chosen , and cains line rejected not because God plays favorites , but because Cain rejected Gods word of reconciliation and instruction , and instead killed his brother.

this recurs over and over the first rejected , the second accepted . Cain and Abel ( Seth ) .....Ishmael and Isaac ....Esau and Jacob .....these figures are representing the truth that there was always going to be the covenant at Sinai , and eventually would be rejected and a new covenant made of Gods promises would be given the inheritance . The flesh and the spirit ....even in the old times there was Jew , and gentile , the chosen of God , and the rejected ....

Knowing then that there really is two seperate lines of man and always have been ..........this is where the power is to become sons of God ....

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
John 1:1-2, 12 KJV

and in the beginning ....

....And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”
Genesis 4:1-8, 10-11, 14-26 KJV

doesn't it make sense that the sons of God , is the line of Seth ?

and the daughters of men they intermarried with , were unbelievers born of Cain in exile from Gods people ?

rather than Angels , breeding with humans ? Being that angels are spiritual beings , and servants or " ministers" at that ? How can a spirit .....breed with flesh ? And this sort of really helps convince ....when speaking of the son of God ....

“Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
Hebrews 1:4-6, 13-14 KJV


Just my own thinking sort of says The sons of God have and only can ever be mankind. Those made in his image in the beginning .....or now in Christ and being born once again , and redeemed onto the image of God through the gospel. And having faith according to the word. Receiving these promises to Abraham now , becoming the children of God , if one is in America , Africa , Asia ......if they will accept the gospel of the promised seed Jesus Christ ....they can become the children of God through faith and perseverance in belief.

see this genealogy ? It doesn't start at Abraham , but includes everyone who received the promised seed ....which is Jesus .

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph...........the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, Which was the son of Jesse, .......... which was the son of Judah, Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham.......

....which was the son of Shem , which was the son of Noah, ..... which was the son of Enoch......, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
Luke 3:21-23, 31-34, 36-38 KJV

That is the line of the sons of God ...

it works in the opposite direction also , from the beginning

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:.......
......., and he begat Enoch:

And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. "

wee see faith , in these generations ...they calling upon the name of God , like we do , walking by faith , like we do , called the sons of God ...like Christians ....even escaping death by faith ....

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:5-6 KJV

[Follower1977]

I might as well continue .... The promise which began with Seth , then reaches Noah and you see the blessing again of salvation in a figure , you also see the effects of the chosen of God " marrying" those cursed of God ....

from Enoch on to Noah his descendant ....
.....And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.”
Genesis 5:1-3, 5-6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21-25, 28-29 KJV

at this point he's chosen by grace , ....Noah to continue the covenant promise of the seed which began with Seth ...the chosen line continued through Noah of the seed of Seth ....while the world drowns Noah is delivered in order to carry for the the promises ...this by faith and not law, righteousness by faith ....

see what Gods children marrying with cains caused ? Because to marry yourself to sin , and worship of false gods ...will always corrupt faith , and cause ..... A common misconception is that this reads " the sons of God went down from heaven and bread with women and created Giants ....

“There were giants in the earth in those days;

and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:4-7 KJV

it only says there were giants then and after ..,.But of the seed when the sons of God went in unto the daughters of men ,thier seed are " mighty men , men of renown " which isn't all that shocking , again lifespan was 7-900 years so being mighty and even really big ....causing your name to be renowned ....if you have a thousand years it seems possible ....

Nevertheless ....the covenant promises regarding salvation then are carried because of Gods grace ....by Noah , who has faith ......into the next generation of men through The same line of men beginning with Seth , then from Noah to Abraham , Isaac and Jacob .....Judah ...Jesse ...david ....all the way up to the lord Jesus Christ , who was actually born of a virgin who was espoused to the line of David .....because God said he would be .


“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord....

...The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ......

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:8, 11-14, 17-18, 22 KJV

again we see the operation of faith , and the inheritance being the heir by faith ....this some 600 plus years before the mosaic law ....

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV


“And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.”
Genesis 9:1-2, 6-9, 29 KJV




that's the line of the sons of God .....those who are born of the gospel of Jesus Christ the seed of promise even from the beginning ....And every name I left in the genealogy , has either the promise of the seed of Abraham , or they are a figure reflecting the messiah , such as Isaac being offered in sacrifice to God the only son and Abrahams statement of faith confirming the covenant of the promises which would come in Jesus.

or Jacobs ladder , like in this post , or the promises to Abraham through Isaac , which again weren't connected to the promises to the flesh of Abram , but the faith of Abraham corresponding to the stars and heavens , the unseen promises of faith , not the land Abraham saw and walked through , remember this about Abraham when the promise of the seed teaches Abram , Noah's seed ...it splits into two very distinct covenants one to the flesh descendants of Abram which corresponds to the land ofmisrael which Abraham walked through , touched and saw and one to the seed of promise , Isaac th everlasting covenant we have in Christ based upon Gods word and faith . And this promised land .....was better it wasn't the land he saw and walked in and never settled in .....but it was the promise when he was gazing into the heavens among the stars m the heavenly promised land ....

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.”
Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-14, 16-19 KJV

Just as Jacob had his dream of the ladder pointing tomchrist and the gospel , so did isaacs sacrifice point to the gospel in a figure , as Abraham received by faith , Noah received by faith , Enoch received by faith ....salvation all these men .....were before the giving of the law and covenant from Sinai . This the corresponding promise , to the flesh seed of Abraham , the children of Israel born in the flesh and blood, given the full condition of the mosaic law , and then given the land promised to thier father Abram.

then in you have the new covenant , which is the gospel of the kingdom .....by which we become children of God , and are given eternal life ....the Holy Spirit the promise to Abraham through Isaac only being born of Gods faithfulness to keep,his word .

[Follower1977]

See if you notice two different covenant promises ....the dust of the earth ...and the stars in the heavens ...Ishmael and Isaac.


" And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”
Genesis 13:14-17 KJV

"After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward....

And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
Genesis 15:1, 4-6 KJV



“And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, ...."
Genesis 15:12-18 KJV


but ...Abram has no heir ? How can this then be true ? Doubt springs forth in Gods ability ....


“And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.”
Genesis 16:3-4, 11-12, 15 KJV

Okay so you see how Sarai sort of intervened and from her will ....Ishmael is born. But then ....we see the two distinct covenants forming


“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her....

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.


And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.”
Genesis 17:1-8, 15-16, 18-22 KJV


“And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
Genesis 22:15-18 KJV


“And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;”
Genesis 26:4 KJV

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
Acts 3:24-26 KJV



The seed who was promised ...from the beginning .

[Walls]

You have posted much scripture, and as I said, I am familiar with this theory. But have you noticed, not one scripture you gave stated that Cain's line where "sons of God". You have concluded that without a single statement. Here is why I say that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels. The term "sons of God" appears 5 times in the Old Testament. In,

Genesis 6:2, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose", the "sons of God" are CONTRASTED to the "daughters of MEN. If the "sons" where of Cain's line then it would read; "The sons of MEN saw the daughters of MEN ... ". Added to this, your theory gives Cain, the unfaithful and murdering line an (i) unwarranted title, and (ii) a higher title,

Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown", you give the offspring of the line of unfaithful and murderers as "men of renown" - why?

Job 1:6, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them", the grammar makes the "sons of God" the same as Satan - an angel. If I say; "the criminals were gathered in you dining room, and Ted Bundy among them, I imply that Ted Bundy is a criminal."

Job 2:1, "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD", the grammar again shows that Satan, and angel, was one of the "sons of God"

Job 38:7, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" This takes place when the foundations of the earth were laid. There were no humans present. Adam had not yet been made.

There is no doubt then that;

1. If Satan was one of the "sons of God" they were angels
2. If they are CONTRASTED with the "daughters of MEN" then they are not men
3. If they were there already when the "foundations" of the earth (not the earth itself) were laid, and they are also called "the morning stars" (heavenly beings), they could not be men.

Added to this, in Genesis 1:11-12, God made an unchangeable Law. Everything would bring forth according to its seed. Since Cain and Seth BOTH came from Adam, why would one line produce "Giants", and "men of renown" and the other normal men.

Added to this, the reason that Noah found grace was that his GENERATIONS were perfect. That implies that others, who died in the flood, did not have PERFECT GENERATIONS. That is, how they were GENERATED.

Added to this, it is true that angels are "spirits" (Ps.104:4), but they do have bodies. It is like a man who is a "soul" (Gen.2:7) but has a body. Angels are reported by scripture to be able to eat. Not only is "Manna" the food of angels, but those angels who went down to Sodom ate with Abraham. Next, angels grabbed Lot by the hand, showing a physical hand.

And finally, we have an unassailable proof of the angels doing something at Noah's time that God abhorred. In,

Jude 1:6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day", the word "estate" literally means "their sphere of authority", or, "their principality". The Greek word is from the root "their beginning". This verse is in the context of three great judgments, (i) the deaths of 600,000 Israelites before they could enter the Good Land, (ii) the angels who left their sphere of operation, and (iii) Sodom and Gomorrah.

2nd Peter 2:4-5, it gives more detail!
⁴ "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
⁵ And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly"

Here the context is clear. The word "and" at the start of verse 5 joins the events of verse 4 together. Angels SINNED at the time of Noah!

I think that the evidence is overwhelming. The "sons of God" of the Old Testament are angels.

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