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Gems from Romans—Romans 6—The body is not inherently evil

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  • Gems from Romans—Romans 6—The body is not inherently evil

    This is the subject of the whole of chapter 6 really. But notice especially 6:12-13:

    "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

    And v.19:

    "For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

    The body of itself is neither good nor evil. Evil comes from the heart:

    "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."—Matthew 15:18-20.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

  • #2
    Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
    This is the subject of the whole of chapter 6 really. But notice especially 6:12-13:

    "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

    And v.19:

    "For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

    The body of itself is neither good nor evil. Evil comes from the heart:

    "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."—Matthew 15:18-20.
    In Chapter 7 the matter is settled. Sin "DWELLS" in our bodies. It is a Body of "DEATH". And "NO GOOD THING dwells in the body", and a "LAW of sin dwells in our bodies". Coming back to the verses you proffer, notice the implications.
    • Sin IS reigning in your body. The Holy Spirit says; "don't let it reign!"
    • You ARE presenting your body as an instrument of sin. The Holy Spirit says; "stop!"
    • You HAVE presented your Body as a slave. The Holy Spirit says; "present it a different way!"
    The prevailing power of the sinful BODY is shown in Galatians 5:17;

    "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

    To Matthew 15:18 etc., the scripture speaks of what comes out of the heart. These are THE RESULTS of the flesh. In Romans we learn the it is "sin" (singular) - the Adamic nature that casues death. And that is causes "sins" (plural). It is better seen in the offering of Leviticus. There is a "SIN (singular) Offering, and there is a "TRESPASS (plural) Offering". One is for our nature and one is for the multiple trespasses that proceed out of this source.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Walls View Post

      In Chapter 7 the matter is settled. Sin "DWELLS" in our bodies.
      Yes, I agree. Sin dwells in the body; the body isn't the source of sin.

      Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post

        Yes, I agree. Sin dwells in the body; the body isn't the source of sin.
        What do you think of Matthew 7:17-18?

        17 "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
        18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."


        It would seem that the fruit defines the source?

        And why, in Romans Chapter 6, must we needs be "crucified"? Verse 6 answers: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

        Comment


        • #5
          Posted by Walls: And why, in Romans Chapter 6, must we needs be "crucified"? Verse 6 answers: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

          Walls, define being crucified for us believers. We certainly don't climb on a cross and die as Jesus did. So therefore it has to be metaphorical death for us. Do explain please, if you think we are crucified by our own will, or by the will of God.

          (Jas 1:14) But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.
          (Jas 1:15) Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.

          What does it start with... a thought? Action?

          In our day to day lives we make decisions every day, sometimes based on circumstances, based on need to do, and sometimes spontaneously, but there's always thought involved even if it's out of habit or subconsciously. How does that affect us as believers and what should we do about this?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
            This is the subject of the whole of chapter 6 really. But notice especially 6:12-13:

            "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

            And v.19:

            "For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

            The body of itself is neither good nor evil. Evil comes from the heart:

            "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."—Matthew 15:18-20.
            I know we have a sinful nature, but not sin if we have been washed by the blood of Christ. That is why Paul advises us to fast some times that weaken the body and thus suppress the carnal desires. The desires of the flesh will always remain with us and are not called sin. It is the transgression of the law that brings in sin and infects our hearts. By nature a child is born without sin, but over the years he learns the difference between sin and sanctification. If he does not repent, sin will continue to dominate him. We who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb are freed from sin and can appear sinless as long as we are not involved in it. It is here where the struggle occurs, the desires of the flesh that sometimes drive us to do the bad as the good. So we learn how to be careful with the world and the things that are in the world. If I pursue the lusts of the world, I can't say I'm free. That's why Paul says, think of the things above. When I deal with the divine things, I become spiritually strong, but still do not secure my freedom when I yield to my desires. It remains a lifelong learning process for all who love Him.
            To God be the Glory

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello angelmike, good thoughts. Do you have a scripture passage from which you conclude the reason for fasting is to weaken the body? I seem to vaguely recall something like this but it escapes me now.
              Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                Hello angelmike, good thoughts. Do you have a scripture passage from which you conclude the reason for fasting is to weaken the body? I seem to vaguely recall something like this but it escapes me now.
                I thought of this scripture that Jesus quoted when the disciples could not do the work He did. Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind of goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Sin brings unbelief into the heart of man and restrains us from accomplishing the work of Christ.
                To God be the Glory

                Comment


                • #9
                  Okay, thanks.

                  I think of fasting as a way of showing our repentance and sorrow; and as a time to seek God. But I still believe I've seen a verse that suggests fasting as a way to weaken carnal desires. I'll keep looking.
                  Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by InTheFire View Post
                    Posted by Walls: And why, in Romans Chapter 6, must we needs be "crucified"? Verse 6 answers: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

                    Walls, define being crucified for us believers. We certainly don't climb on a cross and die as Jesus did. So therefore it has to be metaphorical death for us. Do explain please, if you think we are crucified by our own will, or by the will of God.

                    (Jas 1:14) But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.
                    (Jas 1:15) Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.

                    What does it start with... a thought? Action?

                    In our day to day lives we make decisions every day, sometimes based on circumstances, based on need to do, and sometimes spontaneously, but there's always thought involved even if it's out of habit or subconsciously. How does that affect us as believers and what should we do about this?
                    I think that if you answer the matter of the trees, you will have your answer. But let us look at Galatians 5:19-25.

                    19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
                    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
                    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."


                    In the New Testament, adultery takes place in the heart (Matt.5:28), and so also then fornication and murder. So, besides drunkenness and revellings, the WORKS of the flesh actually take place in your soul. But God calls them "the WORKS of the flesh". That is, the provocation comes because your flesh WORKS them.

                    So also the WORKS of the Holy Spirit in our human spirit. They originate from the spirit, but are played out in the soul. The Holy Spirit, IN our human spirit is the WORKER and provoker, but the manifestations are in the soul.

                    22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
                    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
                    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."


                    As to being crucified with Christ, one could call it metaphorical I suppose. I know what you are getting at. But the sense is that we who are IN Christ, and who proceeded OUT of Christ, go through the same process as He did. The question is, did Levi and his sons - the Levites, really pay tithes to Melchisedec? Where the tithes real? Divorced from Abraham they did not. But they were IN Abraham's loins when he paid real tithes. "Metaphorical" is a difficult concept to box through when the tithes were real.

                    Returning to the flesh, literally before Adam did another thing except gird himself with fig leaves, he was banned from the Tree of Life. What was the reason God gave? The reason was that his flesh must have an end. He MUST die. The flesh is irrevocably polluted. It cannot, and will not be saved. We must get a NEW BODY made in heaven (2nd Cor.5). The soul is saved by trials and refining fire (1st Pet.1), and the human spirit is reborn. But the flesh has, by decree of God, no future.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Walls View Post

                      I think that if you answer the matter of the trees, you will have your answer. But let us look at Galatians 5:19-25.

                      19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
                      20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
                      21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."


                      In the New Testament, adultery takes place in the heart (Matt.5:28), and so also then fornication and murder. So, besides drunkenness and revellings, the WORKS of the flesh actually take place in your soul. But God calls them "the WORKS of the flesh". That is, the provocation comes because your flesh WORKS them.

                      So also the WORKS of the Holy Spirit in our human spirit. They originate from the spirit, but are played out in the soul. The Holy Spirit, IN our human spirit is the WORKER and provoker, but the manifestations are in the soul.

                      22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
                      23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
                      24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                      25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."


                      As to being crucified with Christ, one could call it metaphorical I suppose. I know what you are getting at. But the sense is that we who are IN Christ, and who proceeded OUT of Christ, go through the same process as He did. The question is, did Levi and his sons - the Levites, really pay tithes to Melchisedec? Where the tithes real? Divorced from Abraham they did not. But they were IN Abraham's loins when he paid real tithes. "Metaphorical" is a difficult concept to box through when the tithes were real.

                      Returning to the flesh, literally before Adam did another thing except gird himself with fig leaves, he was banned from the Tree of Life. What was the reason God gave? The reason was that his flesh must have an end. He MUST die. The flesh is irrevocably polluted. It cannot, and will not be saved. We must get a NEW BODY made in heaven (2nd Cor.5). The soul is saved by trials and refining fire (1st Pet.1), and the human spirit is reborn. But the flesh has, by decree of God, no future.
                      I agree with our present flesh having no future.
                      That said, it is the FRUIT of the spirit, the law written into our heart (which is a fleshly part of our body), replacing our previous sinful life that produces good works.

                      (Jas 2:14) What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can such faith save him?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by InTheFire View Post

                        I agree with our present flesh having no future.
                        That said, it is the FRUIT of the spirit, the law written into our heart (which is a fleshly part of our body), replacing our previous sinful life that produces good works.

                        (Jas 2:14) What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can such faith save him?
                        Actually, there are two hearts. One is our fleshly heart - the pump of our blood. But the "heart" revealed in the Bible is a combination of 1 part of the human spirit - conscience, and the three parts of the soul - mind, emotion and will. In its very first mention (which Bible scholars call, "the principle of first mention") we read in Genesis 6:5-6 .

                        5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
                        6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

                        One immediately sees that the pump in our chest does not have "thoughts". The mind is a part of our soul. And the pump in our heart cannot be "grieved". That is an emotion - a part of the soul. And so it is throughout the Bible.

                        And by the way - welcome to the Forum.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Walls View Post

                          Actually, there are two hearts. One is our fleshly heart - the pump of our blood. But the "heart" revealed in the Bible is a combination of 1 part of the human spirit - conscience, and the three parts of the soul - mind, emotion and will. In its very first mention (which Bible scholars call, "the principle of first mention") we read in Genesis 6:5-6 .

                          5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
                          6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

                          One immediately sees that the pump in our chest does not have "thoughts". The mind is a part of our soul. And the pump in our heart cannot be "grieved". That is an emotion - a part of the soul. And so it is throughout the Bible.

                          And by the way - welcome to the Forum.
                          No offense Walls, but you sound like a doctor who separates mind from body....That gets too technical for me, not to mention disassociate. I tend to believe that the thoughts in our minds influence our body, same thing with emotion and our desire/will. So in that aspect, I believe the mind has an effect on the heart, such as one gets angry, or someone experiences grief... it does something to the heart that's measurable. Therefore I believe that the soul, mind and heart is connected, while we're in the flesh. We are spiritual beings born into a body of flesh, and it has to connect somehow to make this work. I can't just in the spirit say:"Here have some food" and not give it to you physically. I doubt that would be satisfying to you if you were homeless.

                          But let's follow your premises, and go with the mind being the actual heart, or as you say the soul, digesting the word happens in the mind, and produces works carried out by the body. So if you want to you could call our brain the heart of everything as it runs our entire body. So if you give ear to your evil inclination such as, "oh I want this, I'm just going to take it" and you follow through with that then you did works of the flesh, while instead, if you give heed to the spirit filled godly side, you'd say:"no, that's wrong, i don't need it", and you still did work in the flesh. The difference is you did good works versus sin. You could apply this to many different scenarios, and it's either you produce the fruit of the spirit, in some physical way, or you sin.

                          Thank you for the welcome! Btw... have you ever felt grief in your heart?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If the body is the source and cause of sin we would have to die physically. Romans 6:2-4 says:

                            "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death. . ."

                            Therefore, if we died to sin, and the body is the source of sin, that would mean our body would have to die before we could be freed from sin.
                            Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                              If the body is the source and cause of sin we would have to die physically. Romans 6:2-4 says:

                              "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death. . ."

                              Therefore, if we died to sin, and the body is the source of sin, that would mean our body would have to die before we could be freed from sin.
                              Right. Paul said that sin dwells in our body. That doesn't make it part of our body. We can destroy that sin and overcome it.
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

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