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2 Timothy 3—Are we there?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post

    Here's what the scripture says about countries that are against Christianity:

    Proverbs 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

    So let's not make out like it is "healthier" for wicked to rule in government and persecute believers. It is never better for that to be the case. It is absolutely better to have freedom of all religions, than it is to persecute believers. The scriptures are clear on this one Bro.
    Freedom of "religion" is the very mindset that is outlawing Christianity, more and more.
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

      Freedom of "religion" is the very mindset that is outlawing Christianity, more and more.
      No it's not. Freedom of religion played a roll in Christianity flourishing in this country. Freedom of religion and outlawing Christianity are mutually exclusive concepts. They cannot exists together no matter how much word play one might use. One can redefine "freedom of religion" to mean something it doesn't in the same way one redefines "marriage". Doesn't make either redefinition correct. (I would agree that they are using a twisted version of the word freedom to try and outlaw Christianity.)

      Let's not confuse Romans 8:28 and how God blesses the persecuted with the concept that bad government is good.
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post

        No it's not. Freedom of religion played a roll in Christianity flourishing in this country. Freedom of religion and outlawing Christianity are mutually exclusive concepts. They cannot exists together no matter how much word play one might use. One can redefine "freedom of religion" to mean something it doesn't in the same way one redefines "marriage". Doesn't make either redefinition correct. (I would agree that they are using a twisted version of the word freedom to try and outlaw Christianity.)

        Let's not confuse Romans 8:28 and how God blesses the persecuted with the concept that bad government is good.
        I understand what you are saying.
        --
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

          I understand what you are saying.
          I know you do brother. We are in a war of words. It has been that way since the beginning. God said and Satan said... who do we listen to? The enemy understands completely the power of words and that is one reason he constantly seeks to change their meanings. It is one reason I push back so hard on what words actually mean.
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post

            I know you do brother. We are in a war of words. It has been that way since the beginning. God said and Satan said... who do we listen to? The enemy understands completely the power of words and that is one reason he constantly seeks to change their meanings. It is one reason I push back so hard on what words actually mean.
            Hooah. Concerning the OP's scripture:

            "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;":
            2 Timothy 3:1-5.


            You really will not find a need for this warning dealing with those of faith, in regions of the world where one's life will be taken for faith in Christ. Not saying there are NOT those of faith in regions where their lives are protected and faith in Christ can be openly proclaimed.

            We also find this, v
            7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

            It is scary to read such because many who this scripture is about, "think" that they know Jesus but they do not. They know a jesus that is taught to them, one that may not be eternal but created, one who is not I AM. Yet they proclaim this jesus and through themselves, push something that is NOT truth.

            Gotta go... client walked in.
            --
            Slug1--out

            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

              Hooah. Concerning the OP's scripture:

              "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;":

              2 Timothy 3:1-5.

              You really will not find a need for this warning dealing with those of faith, in regions of the world where one's life will be taken for faith in Christ. Not saying there are NOT those of faith in regions where their lives are protected and faith in Christ can be openly proclaimed.

              Yet, Paul wrote it in a time when the church was experiencing great persecution. He was in prison himself, for preaching about Jesus, when he wrote that passage. That passage is needed in all times, everywhere, whether there is persecution or not.

              We also find this, v
              always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

              It is scary to read such because many who this scripture is about, "think" that they know Jesus but they do not. They know a jesus that is taught to them, one that may not be eternal but created, one who is not I AM. Yet they proclaim this jesus and through themselves, push something that is NOT truth.

              Yep. Here's one of my refrigerator verses:
              Jer 10:14 Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge;
              Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols;
              For his molten images are deceitful,
              And there is no breath in them.

              Every man is devoid of knowledge and every man is a goldsmith. We try to replace that void of knowledge we have with our own imaginations of what God is like. But that image of God has no life in it at all and therefore, cannot give me life. Better that I know Him as He is and as He says He is. Our entire life should be devoted to having our images of who God is dealt with and replaced with a more complete view of who He is. That is the only way we will experience abundant life!

              Gotta go... client walked in.

              May the Lord bless the session and bring great victory and life and peace to him.
              Matt 9:13
              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
              NASU

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                [/LEFT]
                [LEFT]
                Yet, Paul wrote it in a time when the church was experiencing great persecution. He was in prison himself, for preaching about Jesus, when he wrote that passage. That passage is needed in all times, everywhere, whether there is persecution or not.


                Yep. Here's one of my refrigerator verses:
                Jer 10:14 Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge;
                Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols;
                For his molten images are deceitful,
                And there is no breath in them.

                Every man is devoid of knowledge and every man is a goldsmith. We try to replace that void of knowledge we have with our own imaginations of what God is like. But that image of God has no life in it at all and therefore, cannot give me life. Better that I know Him as He is and as He says He is. Our entire life should be devoted to having our images of who God is dealt with and replaced with a more complete view of who He is. That is the only way we will experience abundant life!


                May the Lord bless the session and bring great victory and life and peace to him.
                One step more... Christ-likeness!! As you, me and many teach, those who KNOW Christ become more like Him, are remolded into, are sanctified unto Jesus. From this, you do not have all the negative aspects in "the Church/Body of Christ," that Paul is led to warn about. When a church is filled with those bearing the fruit described in these verses, "who or WHAT" are they being molded into, becoming like?

                Thus WHY Paul warns that such people don't know the truth and don't know Christ because if they did, then they would not become like all that Paul describes as evidence as NOT knowing the truth, hmmm
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                  One step more... Christ-likeness!! As you, me and many teach, those who KNOW Christ become more like Him, are remolded into, are sanctified unto Jesus. From this, you do not have all the negative aspects in "the Church/Body of Christ," that Paul is led to warn about. When a church is filled with those bearing the fruit described in these verses, "who or WHAT" are they being molded into, becoming like?

                  Thus WHY Paul warns that such people don't know the truth and don't know Christ because if they did, then they would not become like all that Paul describes as evidence as NOT knowing the truth, hmmm
                  I wish I could "like" your post a thousand times! Right on the money brother.

                  Ps 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold,
                  The work of man's hands.
                  5 They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
                  They have eyes, but they cannot see;
                  6 They have ears, but they cannot hear;
                  They have noses, but they cannot smell;
                  7 They have hands, but they cannot feel;
                  They have feet, but they cannot walk;
                  They cannot make a sound with their throat.
                  8 Those who make them will become like them,
                  Everyone who trusts in them.

                  Whatever I image of God is, we become like that. If we serve the real Jesus, we will have life and become more and more like Him. If we have an image of God that is another Jesus, we will be lifeless, without breath. If we have a mixed view of Jesus, then where we have the right view, we will have life and victory. But where we are deceived about Him, we will have bondage, defeat and death.

                  God bless!
                  Matt 9:13
                  13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                  NASU

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    When He comes, people will be in business-as-usual mode. It will be a total surprise.

                    "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."—Luke 17:26-27.

                    Those not paying attention, and who don't know God's word, will be shocked.

                    First the apostasy must come. God's word must become the butt of jokes. A literal fulfillment will be scoffed. "They will say, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.' "—2 Peter 3:4. We're seeing this right now. Once solid Christian denominations like Methodists and Presbyterians are allowing gays and lesbians to be ordained and married. The day is coming when it will be a crime to speak or preach against such things in the US, as it already is in other countries such as Switzerland under the form of antidiscrimination.

                    Many churches now laugh at a literal fulfillment of scripture. They see the Bible only as morality stories to help people live "good" lives. It's a social gospel. These people are far too wise to believe in fairy stories.

                    New Age doctrines have crept in. A couple of nights ago I sat through a painful sermon in which a so-called evangelical preacher was explaining the "principles of getting what you want from God" (apparently God's a principle now). This is exactly the kind of New Age stuff I was steeped in back in the '80s and '90s.
                    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and always perseveres.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                      [/LEFT]
                      [LEFT]
                      [FONT=inherit]Yet, Paul wrote it in a time when the church was experiencing great persecution. He was in prison himself, for preaching about Jesus, when he wrote that passage. That passage is needed in all times, everywhere, whether there is persecution or not.
                      2 Tim 3:This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

                      2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

                      3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

                      4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

                      5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away
                      .

                      Unless I'm grossly mistaken, Paul's focus in the passages above is about the state of affairs for mankind. I believe that that perilious time is already here and it will continue to be worse until Jesus returns. I'm not sure it's about the persecution of the church.



                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave View Post
                        Consider these verses:

                        Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
                        Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

                        Mat_26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

                        Mat_27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


                        Not ONE time did Jesus correct them from their misunderstanding of what He meant, and what He was talking about, did He? Why?
                        Jesus when He was standing in the Temple, said "I will destroy this Temple and rebuild it in three days" Knowing full well that every single one of them thought He was talking about the Temple He was standing in, and He said NOTHING to correct them. But He allowed them to believe something that was NOT TRUE, even though what He said was True, they did not understand what He was talking about. But my point is He knowingly allowed them to continue to believe something that was NOT True, without correcting them of their misguided thoughts. So if Jesus did this, is it not likely He could do it again?
                        When people *don't want to know something* Jesus doesn't force them to know it! This is not the same thing as encouraging people to be deceived. God actually *sends a delusion* upon people who *do not want the truth* so that they have the lie they want to believe in.

                        Even on this forum there will be those of us so hardened in our viewpoints that we *will not receive correction by God.* In this case, God does *not* force us to change our thinking. Rather, he gives us the belief system we want to indulge in, and He is not unjust to let this happen.

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        Now Jesus does not know the Day or the Hour of His Return, but i assure you He knows the season that he will return to the Earth. Do you think it is in His Best interest to tell those people 2,000 years ago, that "I will return after 2020"? NO, not logical, nor did He reveal that. He wanted to speak in such a way, that was 100% True, but the people would believe (incorrectly) that His Return would be during their own lifetime. This is one of the reasons He says:

                        Luk_21:32-33 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                        Jesus did not fail to say he *could not* be properly expected in any generation, because he denied that his Coming could be anticipated at all! He certainly never encouraged people to think he could Return in their own lifetime!

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        People, 2,000 years ago falsely assumed "This generation" was referring to their own generation, that Jesus would return during their own lifetime. When Jesus said "This generation" He was NOT referring to generations of the lifespan of a human. But something else, that even i am not privy to, nor did God reveal it to me. But i can speculate on such things, please note this is my opinions and not from God, and based solely on guessing. "This Generation" could be referring to the Human Race, the Generation of the human Race. It could also be referring to the Generation prior to the Flood, Generation After the Flood, Generation From Jesus to His Return, Generation of After the Rapture. But of a Truth He was referring to a Generation that we are not privy to. If He ever speaks to me again, i will ask Him.
                        Jesus was indeed referring to his *own generation!* Jesus was not predicting when he would Return. He clearly said that could *not* be predicted. Rather, he was predicting when the fall of the temple would take place--the very things his Disciples asked him about. Jesus' answer was that "in this generation" the "Desolation" will take place. An army would surround Jerusalem, and there would be a brief opportunity for Christians to escape. But then the temple would be utterly decimated, and the Jews would be scattered for the rest of the age. It all began specifically and literally in *Jesus' generation.*

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        Here is my point, Jesus did NOT want people to Know how long it was going to take before His Return, and He wanted each human generation to think it would happen in their own lifetime. Another reason He continually instructed them to Watch, to Look for Him, even though He knew full well, they would NOT see Him coming in their own lifetime. But this is all according to His Plan.
                        Jesus did *not* want Christians to look for his Coming in each generation. He wanted them to *look forward to* his Coming, which is not the same thing as "expecting him to come imminently." The way we are to look at the "near coming" of Christ's Kingdom is to recognize that God is already in heaven, judging our fitness for this Kingdom. It is near in the sense that immediately following our performance on this earth, we will be judged!

                        Instead of trying to guess whether Jesus is coming in our generation or not, we prepare simply by remaining in obedience to God's word all the time. This is the *only* way we can prepare for the Kingdom--not by thinking it could come today, this year, or in our generation! And no, Jesus didn't let people believe he could come in *any* generation. On the contrary, he instructed his Disciples to not even consider the timing. The only timing they were given had to do with the imminent judgment that stood before Israel in their generation--the 70 AD event of the destruction of the temple.

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        Now are we living in the Days that the Rapture may happen? The answer is NO, not yet.
                        The reason the Rapture may not yet happen, according to Paul, is that the appearance and destruction of the Man of Sin must take place first.

                        2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ...8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        How can we tell when we are getting close, when all generations before this one, assumed that Christ was coming. Many thought that Hitler was the antichrist, and the end of the world was upon them, yet he wasn't the antichrist and the world did not come to an end, so how can we know when the end is close?
                        Not all generations of Christians thought the end would come in their generation. Some believed in the Millennial Day Theory, in which there would yet be a couple of thousand years beyond the Early Church before Christ can return. For some, the "nearness" of Christ's Kingdom had more to do with our immediate proximity to God's immediate judgment, rendering us "very close" to eternal judgment. This is not the same thing as expectation that Christ could come in one's lifetime.

                        Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                        Prophecies, is the Answer....
                        But i agree with all those who think we are living in the last days, the birth pangs are being felt, a sense of Doom is upon everyone's mind. Like something bad is about to happen, but as long as you are Loving One Another, what do you have to worry about? Continue to Love One Another as our Lord and Savior COMMANDED us to do, continue to watch for Him, even if He does not return for another 1,000 years. YOU Watch for Him NOW. Continue to watch for the signs, continue to read the Word and know what the prophecies are concerning His Second Return to set up His Kingdom on Earth.

                        And of a Truth, it does not matter what you believe concerning the end times (UNLESS it is false doctrine), but what is most important, is that you continue to Love One Another, this Do, and He will reveal to you all that you need to know. As it is written:

                        Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

                        You would be absolutely AMAZED if you knew how much He desires to Add unto you. Those who draw close to God, are they that God draws close to. What you do to others is what you DO to Jesus Christ. So if you want to Love Jesus, then Love One Another, and in so doing you Love HIM. selah.
                        Yes, there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled *before* the end can come. The Gospel is still reaching out, successfully, to nations. It is when the Gospel begins to be shut down world-wide, or just in formerly-Christian Europe and America, that I think we will enter into the last of the "last days." That's when Antichristianity will give rise to the Antichrist in Europe, I believe.

                        And Israel has only recently been revived as a nation. They require a witness, and an eventual turn to wickedness before God may be willing to judge Judaism, I think. There is time yet, but certainly, the time is rapidly drawing near.

                        I agree. Our duty is to keep our love alive in a time that would drag us down into carnality and sin. We must endure! The major thing I would draw your attention to, with respect to Bible interpretation, is that you are mixing up the "birth pains" of the 70 AD event with the "birth pains" of the end. Jesus focused, primarily, on his own generation when giving his Olivet Address. Most here don't accept this, but I believe it to be the truth. If you want to know about the endtimes, the book of Revelation spells it out. Antichrist will rise, and the Church will have to endure a short burst of persecution before judgment falls.

                        Comment


                        • #42

                          Originally posted by Disciple-Dave View Post

                          Consider these verses:

                          Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
                          Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

                          Mat_26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

                          Mat_27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


                          Not ONE time did Jesus correct them from their misunderstanding of what He meant, and what He was talking about, did He? Why?
                          Jesus when He was standing in the Temple, said "I will destroy this Temple and rebuild it in three days" Knowing full well that every single one of them thought He was talking about the Temple He was standing in, and He said NOTHING to correct them. But He allowed them to believe something that was NOT TRUE, even though what He said was True, they did not understand what He was talking about. But my point is He knowingly allowed them to continue to believe something that was NOT True, without correcting them of their misguided thoughts. So if Jesus did this, is it not likely He could do it again?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          When people *don't want to know something* Jesus doesn't force them to know it!
                          Clearly you misunderstood what i said above, i never even suggested that Jesus FORCES anyone to believe anything at all.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          This is not the same thing as encouraging people to be deceived.
                          And you THINK i have said differently?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          God actually *sends a delusion* upon people who *do not want the truth* so that they have the lie they want to believe in.
                          Again, Never said differently.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Even on this forum there will be those of us so hardened in our viewpoints that we *will not receive correction by God.* In this case, God does *not* force us to change our thinking. Rather, he gives us the belief system we want to indulge in, and He is not unjust to let this happen.
                          Never said otherwise. Tell me, is there a reason you are telling me things that i already know? If you do not think i know them, would it not be better to ask me if that is what i think, than to assume that i am thinking something that is NOT correct?


                          Originally posted by Disciple-Dave

                          Now Jesus does not know the Day or the Hour of His Return, but i assure you He knows the season that he will return to the Earth. Do you think it is in His Best interest to tell those people 2,000 years ago, that "I will return after 2020"? NO, not logical, nor did He reveal that. He wanted to speak in such a way, that was 100% True, but the people would believe (incorrectly) that His Return would be during their own lifetime. This is one of the reasons He says:

                          Luk_21:32-33 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Jesus did not fail to say he *could not* be properly expected in any generation, because he denied that his Coming could be anticipated at all! He certainly never encouraged people to think he could Return in their own lifetime!
                          Seriously? randyk says " Jesus never encouraged people to think He could Return in their own lifetime"
                          Jesus said " This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Tell me, What do you think all those people who heard Jesus tell them that statement, was thinking when He would return?
                          Should i believe you who says Jesus never encouraged people to think He could Return in the own lifetime, or believe the very Words that Jesus told those people ENCOURAGING them that Their Generation would not pass away until all be fulfilled. It's right there in the Word of God, Jesus saying things that encouraged them to believe it would happen within their own generation. If you need other verses to Prove that He did this, just let me know, there are more.


                          Originally posted by Disciple-Dave

                          People, 2,000 years ago falsely assumed "This generation" was referring to their own generation, that Jesus would return during their own lifetime. When Jesus said "This generation" He was NOT referring to generations of the lifespan of a human. But something else, that even i am not privy to, nor did God reveal it to me. But i can speculate on such things, please note this is my opinions and not from God, and based solely on guessing. "This Generation" could be referring to the Human Race, the Generation of the human Race. It could also be referring to the Generation prior to the Flood, Generation After the Flood, Generation From Jesus to His Return, Generation of After the Rapture. But of a Truth He was referring to a Generation that we are not privy to. If He ever speaks to me again, i will ask Him.
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Jesus was indeed referring to his *own generation!* Jesus was not predicting when he would Return.
                          sigh. .. . Do you not understand that Luke 21 verses 20 to 28 are specifically talking about His Return. lol. How can you not see that?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          He clearly said that could *not* be predicted.
                          Really? Clearly, what verse CLEARLY shows JESUS saying He could not predict His own Return. We know that His Father ONLY knows the Day and the Hour. What? You don't think Jesus knows the season He will Return. Really? How could He teach us what to look for before His Return, What signs will be happening before He Returns. You do error thinking Jesus does not know the Season He will Return to set up His Kingdom.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Rather, he was predicting when the fall of the temple would take place--the very things his Disciples asked him about.
                          You do error again. Luke 21 verses 20-28 are NOT talking about the destruction of the Temple whatsoever, if YOU think that, then i assure you it is your interpretation that believes that, and NOT what Scriptures actually teaches.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Jesus' answer was that "in this generation" the "Desolation" will take place.
                          Luke 21:5-6 is about the Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem
                          Luke 21:20-28 is about the Destruction of Jerusalem in the Last Days.

                          Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. (The Temple being Destroyed did not Bring the Kingdom of God to Earth, this is a reference to what is yet to happen.
                          Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
                          Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                          (Heaven and Earth passing away is yet another thing that is yet to happen)

                          Many other Scriptures confirms these things. Zech 14 specifically teaches about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Kingdom of God coming to Earth.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          An army would surround Jerusalem, and there would be a brief opportunity for Christians to escape. But then the temple would be utterly decimated, and the Jews would be scattered for the rest of the age. It all began specifically and literally in *Jesus' generation.*
                          You would do well to do a study on "Duel Prophecies"


                          Originally posted by Disciple-Dave

                          Here is my point, Jesus did NOT want people to Know how long it was going to take before His Return, and He wanted each human generation to think it would happen in their own lifetime. Another reason He continually instructed them to Watch, to Look for Him, even though He knew full well, they would NOT see Him coming in their own lifetime. But this is all according to His Plan.
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Jesus did *not* want Christians to look for his Coming in each generation.
                          You are free to believe as you will, Brother, i will continue to believe Scriptures.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          He wanted them to *look forward to* his Coming, which is not the same thing as "expecting him to come imminently."
                          Do you not know Scriptures at all? All Scriptures teach imminent Return. Know you not that the mere FACT that the Word of God plainly teaches that "Jesus can Return like a Thief in the night" indicates to those who read it to mean "At any time"? Has anyone in all of History study the Word of God and NOT think it is imminent? Has anyone in History after studying the Word of God said "Jesus is going to come over 200 years from now? Why is that? Why has every generation, EVER! has taken thought that Jesus would return in their own lifetime? Because there are NO verses that indicate otherwise. Even now, who does not think the Return of Christ is NOT imminent? Who thinks it will NOT happen in their own lifetime. Tell me, why does this generation and EVERY generation prior, has taken thought, that Jesus was imminently going to return in their own lifetime? Why? Because that is what Scriptures teach, and it seems that randyk teaches things contrary to Scriptures if he thinks otherwise. Which your free to do as you will, however wrong it may be.



                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          The way we are to look at the "near coming" of Christ's Kingdom is to recognize that God is already in heaven, judging our fitness for this Kingdom. It is near in the sense that immediately following our performance on this earth, we will be judged!

                          Instead of trying to guess whether Jesus is coming in our generation or not, we prepare simply by remaining in obedience to God's word all the time. This is the *only* way we can prepare for the Kingdom--not by thinking it could come today, this year, or in our generation! And no, Jesus didn't let people believe he could come in *any* generation. On the contrary, he instructed his Disciples to not even consider the timing. The only timing they were given had to do with the imminent judgment that stood before Israel in their generation--the 70 AD event of the destruction of the temple.
                          sigh .. .. . . . .



                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          The reason the Rapture may not yet happen, according to Paul, is that the appearance and destruction of the Man of Sin must take place first.
                          This is true, have not said otherwise.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Not all generations of Christians thought the end would come in their generation.
                          lol, this should be good, Tell me randyk, what generation of Christians thought the end would NOT come during their generation, i would love to hear about Christians who believed this. Where does this doctrine even come from? That there were GENERATIONS of Christians who did NOT believe the Lord would Return and get them during their own lifetime. What does that doctrine come from?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Some believed in the Millennial Day Theory, in which there would yet be a couple of thousand years beyond the Early Church before Christ can return.
                          Millennial Day Theory is a New doctrine, not anything that past GENERATIONS of Christians have believed.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          For some, the "nearness" of Christ's Kingdom had more to do with our immediate proximity to God's immediate judgment, rendering us "very close" to eternal judgment. This is not the same thing as expectation that Christ could come in one's lifetime.
                          i am blown away how much you don't know the Scriptures. Tell me something. Jesus said something to people, Tell me what you think the PEOPLE took thought about what Jesus tells them.

                          Mat_24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

                          Do you think the people who heard this from the Lord Jesus, took thought that He was saying to "WATCH" that they would THINK this meant to them, that He is Returning during their Lifetime? That it is imminent? You do error not understanding these things, and then rejecting the TRUTH when it is revealed to you.

                          Tell me something else, WHY would Jesus tell those people to WATCH for His RETURN, knowing full well that He was NOT going to Return until the Last Days? Answer me if you are able to, Why would Jesus tell them to WATCH for His Return, knowing that He is NOT returning in their lifetime. When you can understand why our Lord told them to WATCH, then you can begin to understand all that i said in my post concerning this topic. But if you don't understand WHY He told that generation to "WATCH" then you will most certainly NOT understand the post i gave.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave View Post
                            Seriously? randyk says " Jesus never encouraged people to think He could Return in their own lifetime"
                            Jesus said " This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Tell me, What do you think all those people who heard Jesus tell them that statement, was thinking when He would return?
                            I already answered this somewhere in the post. Jesus was talking about when the temple would be destroyed. It would be destroyed in "this generation," or literally, the generation of Jesus' Disciples. He was not there referring to his 2nd Coming.

                            No, Jesus never encouraged anybody to expect him to Come in their generation. That would be contradictory to his own claim that none of us is to know when he is Coming. We simply know that it will be at the end of the age, at the point where God is ready to restore the nation Israel and to destroy the Antichrist.

                            Our regular preparation for the Kingdom consists of living righteous lives, not trying to 2nd guess when certain prophetic events will happen. All we need to know is what our present job is. The prophetic events will take care of themselves, and will take place in God's time. We are to be concerned with our own time.

                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            sigh. .. . Do you not understand that Luke 21 verses 20 to 28 are specifically talking about His Return. lol. How can you not see that?
                            Yes, Jesus wants every generation of Christians to "set their minds on things above." We are not to be distracted by the problems this world has brought upon itself. We are to continue our witness to the truth.

                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Really? Clearly, what verse CLEARLY shows JESUS saying He could not predict His own Return. We know that His Father ONLY knows the Day and the Hour. What? You don't think Jesus knows the season He will Return. Really? How could He teach us what to look for before His Return, What signs will be happening before He Returns. You do error thinking Jesus does not know the Season He will Return to set up His Kingdom.
                            Maybe you should read my whole post before responding. I address all these issues, unless you just don't understand my answers? You answer your own question: Jesus doesn't give us the time of his return precisely because the Father has reserved the times to Himself. We are to be concerned about our own time, and not when the times will take place. All we know is that Christ will come at the end of this age.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            You do error again. Luke 21 verses 20-28 are NOT talking about the destruction of the Temple whatsoever, if YOU think that, then i assure you it is your interpretation that believes that, and NOT what Scriptures actually teaches.
                            I'm not erring at all! You obviously don't understand my arguments. There were 2 questions, and not just 1. The primary question was about when the temple would fall. Answer: it would be in "this generation," and it would be following a few initial "birth pains." The secondary question was about when Jesus would Come again, in light of this initial destruction of the Jewish worship. After all, the Jews expected the Messiah to come to Save them--not destroy them!

                            You are mixing up Jesus' answers, in my opinion. And you certainly aren't representing my explanations properly. Clearly, Luke 21.20-28 does indeed *include* the destruction of the temple in 70 AD!

                            Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

                            Most Christians that I know, who have much understanding about this, recognize that this is talking about the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. You are the odd one out--not me! More broadly, my interpretation would go on to explain that beginning with 70 AD we here have a description of the Jewish Diaspora throughout the NT era, ending at the end of the age, when Christ Returns. I call this the "Great Tribulation," because that is what I think Jesus called it.

                            He was describing here the fate of the Jewish People because he was here still speaking under the era of the Law, when Israel was still God's exclusive people. Of course, at that time, Israel already contained a remnant of Christians, who Jesus said would not only go through this Jewish tribulation with unbelievers, but would also suffer persecution from Jewish and Gentile unbelievers.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Luke 21:5-6 is about the Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem
                            Luke 21:20-28 is about the Destruction of Jerusalem in the Last Days.
                            I believe Jesus is describing only a *single* destruction of Jerusalem in his Olivet Discourse.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. (The Temple being Destroyed did not Bring the Kingdom of God to Earth, this is a reference to what is yet to happen.
                            The budding of the fig tree (and of other trees) represented the birth pains leading to the fall of Jerusalem. The drawing near of God's Kingdom was not its actual coming, but an indication that it was "near." This meant, as I see it, that judgment was going to fall. It's like saying that when the clouds appear, rain is about to fall. The clouds is not the rain, but only the preliminary sign of the coming rain. So Christ did not come in 70 AD, but his judgment upon Israel showed that his Kingdom had drawn near to Israel for judgment.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
                            Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                            (Heaven and Earth passing away is yet another thing that is yet to happen)
                            Jesus is just saying that his promises, particularly for Israel, would not pass, despite God's judgments upon Israel and upon the rest of the world. God would still fulfill His promises for the earth. Once God fulfills His promises for Israel and for the present earth, then the next earth, or the next age, can begin.

                            Again, Jesus was talking about his own literal generation, which would see God's judgment upon Israel. It would be so serious that it would mean for Israel an age-long Diaspora. But God's word would be fulfilled inasmuch as God would send Jesus back to restore Israel and to rescue His people from this evil world.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            You would do well to do a study on "Duel Prophecies"
                            I'm not a newbie, brother!

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Do you not know Scriptures at all? All Scriptures teach imminent Return. Know you not that the mere FACT that the Word of God plainly teaches that "Jesus can Return like a Thief in the night" indicates to those who read it to mean "At any time"? Has anyone in all of History study the Word of God and NOT think it is imminent? Has anyone in History after studying the Word of God said "Jesus is going to come over 200 years from now? Why is that? Why has every generation, EVER! has taken thought that Jesus would return in their own lifetime? Because there are NO verses that indicate otherwise. Even now, who does not think the Return of Christ is NOT imminent? Who thinks it will NOT happen in their own lifetime. Tell me, why does this generation and EVERY generation prior, has taken thought, that Jesus was imminently going to return in their own lifetime? Why? Because that is what Scriptures teach, and it seems that randyk teaches things contrary to Scriptures if he thinks otherwise. Which your free to do as you will, however wrong it may be.
                            Most of history has the Church believing in a Postribulational view in eschatology. That means they did *not* believe that Jesus could return "at any time." They believed Jesus would come back specifically to destroy Antichrist. And the Christians would not be ignorant of what was going on. It would be unbelievers who are taken as "by a thief"--not believers.

                            But we are not to focus on the times, and engage in fruitless speculation. Rather, we need to focus on the needs of our own time. There are plenty of things to be concerned about now. All of this "imminent Coming" belief is more a product of modern Pretribulationism and Dispensationalism--not historic Christian belief about the 2nd Coming. You are a victim of your own time, and don't know the bulk of history. Only that can explain your utter frustration and hysteria.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            lol, this should be good, Tell me randyk, what generation of Christians thought the end would NOT come during their generation, i would love to hear about Christians who believed this. Where does this doctrine even come from? That there were GENERATIONS of Christians who did NOT believe the Lord would Return and get them during their own lifetime. What does that doctrine come from?
                            I already told you about those who believed in the Millennial Day theory. They obviously did *not* expect Christ imminently. The "nearness" of Christ's Return is not always viewed the way you're applying it, in the sense that he could come today, or even in any generation. Rather, the nearness of Christ's Coming has to do with his relative nearness with respect to bringing more immediate judgments, that relate to eternal judgment.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Millennial Day Theory is a New doctrine, not anything that past GENERATIONS of Christians have believed.
                            Christians in the *Early Church" believed it!
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_Day_Theory

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            i am blown away how much you don't know the Scriptures. Tell me something. Jesus said something to people, Tell me what you think the PEOPLE took thought about what Jesus tells them.

                            Mat_24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

                            Do you think the people who heard this from the Lord Jesus, took thought that He was saying to "WATCH" that they would THINK this meant to them, that He is Returning during their Lifetime? That it is imminent? You do error not understanding these things, and then rejecting the TRUTH when it is revealed to you.
                            If you look closely, you'll find Jesus was not talking about looking directly for his Coming to take place immediately. Rather, he was telling them to *look forward* to his Coming so that in expecting his judgment they would prepare themselves by living spiritual and moral lives.

                            Being "alert" was directly related to avoiding things that distract our view of Jesus--things such as false prophets and false Christs, or false presentations of God's Kingdom on earth. We are to avoid things that distract us from godly living, etc.

                            This is how we "watch." We do not watch in such a way that we think he could come today. That would contradict with what he said about not being distracted by prophetic expectations and calculations about the timing of prophetic events. Rather, we are to be concerned with our own time, knowing that the Kingdom will come at the end of our collective job, and not before!

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Originally posted by Disciple-Dave
                            Tell me something else, WHY would Jesus tell those people to WATCH for His RETURN, knowing full well that He was NOT going to Return until the Last Days? Answer me if you are able to, Why would Jesus tell them to WATCH for His Return, knowing that He is NOT returning in their lifetime. When you can understand why our Lord told them to WATCH, then you can begin to understand all that i said in my post concerning this topic. But if you don't understand WHY He told that generation to "WATCH" then you will most certainly NOT understand the post i gave.
                            Hope I help somebody here, if not you.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              No, Jesus never encouraged anybody to expect him to Come in their generation. That would be contradictory to his own claim that none of us is to know when he is Coming.
                              How is expecting Jesus to come during my lifetime, is contradictory to His Claim that we don't know when He is coming. That makes no sense whatsoever. That logic dictates that a person is NOT to expect Him to return at all, because Jesus does not know when He is going to Return. Do you see how illogical that is? Jesus DID encourage them to expect His Return in their lifetime, even though He did not know the Day or the Hour of His Return.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Our regular preparation for the Kingdom consists of living righteous lives, not trying to 2nd guess when certain prophetic events will happen.
                              Agree 100%, that is why i believe God and what He told me will happen in the future, and do not second guess it at all. Tell me something, if a person knowingly and willingly does something that they know full well is UNRIGHTEOUS, if they DO IT, are they Righteous or Unrighteous according to Scriptures?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              All we need to know is what our present job is. The prophetic events will take care of themselves, and will take place in God's time. We are to be concerned with our own time.
                              This is True, However it appears the advise you are giving you don't do yourself. Seems to me, you buck against most everything i say concerning the Time that is ahead. If you were concerned about our own time, as you advise, then why are you so adamant about fighting against what i say is going to happen in the End Time? Wouldn't those who are concerned about our Time now, not be concerned about those who teaching about some other time?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Yes, Jesus wants every generation of Christians to "set their minds on things above." We are not to be distracted by the problems this world has brought upon itself. We are to continue our witness to the truth.
                              Amen, and we are told to "Watch" Tell me, if you are able to do so, what were they, 2,000 years ago, told to Watch for?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Maybe you should read my whole post before responding. I address all these issues, unless you just don't understand my answers?
                              i understand Scriptures, But your right, i don't understand what you teach. That is why i address it.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              You answer your own question: Jesus doesn't give us the time of his return precisely because the Father has reserved the times to Himself. We are to be concerned about our own time, and not when the times will take place. All we know is that Christ will come at the end of this age.
                              Again, i am asking you, 2,000 years ago when Jesus told them to "Watch" What was He telling them to Watch for? Are you not answering this, because it will prove you wrong, or just ignoring it, because you don't know how to answer it?

                              You say Jesus never encouraged those generations to seek His Return during their lifetime. So i ask you again, When Jesus told them to "Watch" What were they, 2,000 years ago, suppose to watch for? Answer that TRUE, and then you will see that you were wrong in your assumption that Jesus NEVER encouraged them to seek His Return during their own lifetime.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              I'm not erring at all! You obviously don't understand my arguments.
                              True, i understand Scriptures.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              There were 2 questions, and not just 1. The primary question was about when the temple would fall. Answer: it would be in "this generation," and it would be following a few initial "birth pains."
                              i see your answer given. But that answer is given in Scriptures, Luke 21: 5-6. Plainly and Clearly speaks of the physical Temple being destroyed. The Rest of the verses are specifically talking about last days. NOT 70 AD

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post


                              The secondary question was about when Jesus would Come again, in light of this initial destruction of the Jewish worship. After all, the Jews expected the Messiah to come to Save them--not destroy them!
                              The Jews to this day are still expecting the Messiah to Save them and Not destroy them.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              You are mixing up Jesus' answers, in my opinion. And you certainly aren't representing my explanations properly.
                              i understand your explanation fine, i just know it does not line up with Scriptures is all.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Clearly, Luke 21.20-28 does indeed *include* the destruction of the temple in 70 AD!
                              And you have made my point exactly. Luke 21:20-28 says absolutely NOTHING about the Temple, NOT one word. And yet you interpret, something humans should NOT do in the first place, you interpret Luke 21:20-28 to be talking about the TEMPLE, when there is NOTHING in any of those verses that even imply it is talking about the Temple. wow.

                              Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (Nothing about the Temple, talking about the City Jerusalem)
                              Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (NO Temple here either)
                              Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (Temple NOT mentioned in this verse either)
                              Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (NO TEMPLE)
                              Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Temple NOT mentioned in this verse either.)
                              Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (Again, NO Temple mentioned in this verse)
                              Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (NO TEMPLE)
                              Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Temple NOT mentioned in this verse either)
                              Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Temple mention? No)

                              So explain to me, how YOU think these verses (Which say NOTHING about any TEMPLE) are referring to the Temple being destroyed in 70 AD. Really? sigh .. .. . .

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Most Christians that I know, who have much understanding
                              i use to believe and teach human understandings, i was pathetic back then.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Most Christians that I know, who have much understanding about this, recognize that this is talking about the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD.
                              OH, if that is the case, then most Christians that you know are wrong. i don't mean for that to come off mean or anything, just saying what is True.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              You are the odd one out--not me!
                              Can't disagree with that. God already told me this generation would not believe the things HE Told me. So i have been called, Liar, Arrogant, false prophet, false teacher, prideful, crazy, lunatic, devil worshiper, a satanist, devils pawn, self righteous, and many, many other things as well.

                              What is strange though is your comment --not me! Is this some kind of competition for you? Are you comparing me to you? i am not of this world, and the world does hate me. Am i the odd one out, because the world hates me, but does not hate you? Or am i the odd one out because i claim to speak with God and He with me, when MOST Christians don't even believe God speaks to anyone any more? i don't know, that statement was just weird to me, don't understand why it is important to you that you are NOT the odd one out. Oh, and name me any prophet in Scriptures that was NOT considered the Odd one out? Was it common for the people to believe the prophets, save Nineveh believing Jonah? How many of the prophets were killed because they too were considered the ODD ONE OUT? If i was like everyone else, i would have to question if i were a prophet or not. Most prophets are indeed odd one out, and most of them the people of their generation would NOT hear them either. So you are most correct, i am the odd one out, and i thank God for it.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              More broadly, my interpretation
                              And therein lies the problem.

                              II Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

                              And what is TOTALLY ironic, is people privately interpret that verse to mean _____________________________. lol, the verse plainly teaches we are NOT to privately interpret the Word of God, and yet humans interpret this verse to mean something other than what it says. ironic as all get out.

                              Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

                              So, Scriptures interprets Scriptures. That is TRUE, and is Scriptural. However, what do we see? This generation interprets Scriptures with their own understanding, they own thinking, their own thoughts, their own opinions, their own hypothesis.

                              A verse is to interpret another verse, this has nothing to do with a person private interpretation, their own thinking, their own ideals, of what they think is True.

                              Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

                              Amen, and Amen, Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. What? Do you think, Joseph heard their dreams, then went to his chamber and thought about what the meaning of those dreams could be, do you think via his own intellect he deduced what those dreams meant? Or Did He go back and study the Word and through his own intellect he figured out what the dreams meant? This generation does sorely error thinking that nonsense. GOD TOLD him what the dreams meant.

                              Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

                              Who reveals God's SECRETS and to whom does He reveal them? God reveals His Secrets to His prophets. Those prophets do not gain those secrets via their own pathetic human finite minds. Their OWN interpretations. God TELLS them what those secrets are, it is NOT something they, through their own intellect, gain. dumb humans.

                              Genesis 41:16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.

                              Joseph plainly teaches, that the answer will NOT come from him, but the answer would come from GOD.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              More broadly, my interpretation would go on to explain that beginning with 70 AD we here have a description of the Jewish Diaspora throughout the NT era, ending at the end of the age, when Christ Returns. I call this the "Great Tribulation," because that is what I think Jesus called it.
                              i will continue to believe those things God told me, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my intellect, my mind, what i think, what i believe, or my interpretations. i choose to think everything from my mind is horse manure. And everything God told me, is the absolute TRUTH.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              He was describing here the fate of the Jewish People because he was here still speaking under the era of the Law, when Israel was still God's exclusive people. Of course, at that time, Israel already contained a remnant of Christians, who Jesus said would not only go through this Jewish tribulation with unbelievers, but would also suffer persecution from Jewish and Gentile unbelievers.
                              As i suggested before, you would do well to study about Duel Prophecies. God is a genius, Duel prophesies can be fulfilled perfectly in more than just one occasion.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              I believe Jesus is describing only a *single* destruction of Jerusalem in his Olivet Discourse.
                              Duel Prophecies.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              The budding of the fig tree (and of other trees) represented the birth pains leading to the fall of Jerusalem. The drawing near of God's Kingdom was not its actual coming, but an indication that it was "near." This meant, as I see it, that judgment was going to fall. It's like saying that when the clouds appear, rain is about to fall. The clouds is not the rain, but only the preliminary sign of the coming rain. So Christ did not come in 70 AD, but his judgment upon Israel showed that his Kingdom had drawn near to Israel for judgment.
                              Do you ignore Zechariah 14 all of it, or just parts of it you ignore? Or do you interpret the verses to mean something other than what it says, like the homosexual communities interpret the verses which plainly teach against homosexuality but interpret it another way to disregard what it plainly says and teaches?

                              Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

                              When is the Day of Lord? is it 70 AD or is that Yet to come randyk?

                              Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
                              Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


                              What does the City shall be taken mean? And the spoils of that city shall be divided? These two verses alone, no interpretation even needed, says Jerusalem is going to be attacked by ALL NATIONS and it will be destroyed. What do YOU say though, i know what Scriptures says and teaches, but what do YOU teach?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post


                              Again, Jesus was talking about his own literal generation, which would see God's judgment upon Israel.
                              lol, you act if there is only ONE judgement against Israel. Again: Duel Prophecies.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              It would be so serious that it would mean for Israel an age-long Diaspora. But God's word would be fulfilled inasmuch as God would send Jesus back to restore Israel and to rescue His people from this evil world.
                              most of Jerusalem today, believe in Judaism. That is to say, they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. You say that God's judgement upon Israel happened in 70 AD, correct? What then, Jerusalem today, which does not believe in Jesus is NOT going to receive God's judgment? That somehow the Jews in Jerusalem are free from the Judgments of God? Or Does Scriptures over and over again teach that God's judgment is coming upon Jerusalem in the last days?

                              Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
                              Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


                              So then according to these inspired by God verses. in the days of the "Day of the Lord cometh" God is going to cause all the Nations of the world to come against Jerusalem and attack it, and destroy it, and YOU think this is NOT a Judgment of God against them? You do error not understand all the prophecies concerning Jerusalem. and double error for not understanding and believing what Scriptures plainly teach. Or will you ADD to the plain Scriptures, your interpretation to change what it plainly says into something that you will agree with? We shall see. or not.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              I'm not a newbie, brother!
                              So your saying you understand about Duel Prophecies? Yet it seems you are not willing to apply them. Why?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Most of history has the Church believing in a Postribulational view in eschatology. That means they did *not* believe that Jesus could return "at any time."
                              Most of history and still is today, believe in Pre-trib not post-trib view in eschatology. And that does NOT mean, they did not think it would happen in their lifetime. What? it's not possible they those who though post-trib, thought the 7 year Tribulation would be in their lifetime. So then someone 500 years ago, believed Post-trib, could they also have believed that the 7 year Tribulation was going to be in their lifetime? possible or impossible? my point is just because a thousand years ago people believe in post-trib does NOT mean they did NOT believe it all would happen in their own lifetime, exactly as Jesus wanted ever generation to believe.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              They believed Jesus would come back specifically to destroy Antichrist. And the Christians would not be ignorant of what was going on. It would be unbelievers who are taken as "by a thief"--not believers.
                              Are you suggesting that it is not possible that they believed the antichrist would be during their own lifetime? Are there any verses that reveal the antichrist arrives in the year 2024? Therefore those a thousand years ago were not expecting Christ to Return during their lifetime? Tell me, what verse indicates that the antichrist would NOT appear within any particular generation?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              But we are not to focus on the times, and engage in fruitless speculation.
                              i 100% agree with this statement. Back in the day i was full of speculations, But now. Well what God told me is NOT speculations, but is the TRUTH, Human interpretations of what is going to happen in the future, is indeed mere speculations, which the mere fact that it is human interpretations renders it fruitless, something humans are NOT suppose to do any ways. That's like trying to find answers about god through interpretations of the Ouija board and what it says. God reveals to whom God reveals, but woe to that person who tries to find knowledge of God via their own understanding. Guilty. i did that too. a lot.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Rather, we need to focus on the needs of our own time.

                              This is True for most people, this is what i teach as well, Better make sure you are walking the Walk, NOTHING is more important that that. Better make sure you are Loving One Another, NOTHING is more important than that. Those who are LOVING ONE ANOTHER, are indeed walking the walk.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              There are plenty of things to be concerned about now.
                              Amen, i am concerned about telling as many people about what God told me, before i am killed.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              All of this "imminent Coming" belief is more a product of modern Pretribulationism and Dispensationalism--not historic Christian belief about the 2nd Coming.
                              Historical Christians were told by Jesus to "Watch" for Him to Return, because no one knows the day or the hour of His Return, then He also gives signs of His coming, that each generation could interpret to be happening within their own generation. Do you have a logical mind? i think you do, think this out logically. If Jesus taught people that He would NOT come back during their lifetime, would they not have lived their life any way they saw fit, just as long as they, before they die, get right with God? Your big on human nature, why do you think human nature would not apply to those people who thought Jesus would NOT come back in their own lifetime?
                              Even Jesus Himself testified in a parable about those who believed their master would not return immediately would do what? They would do whatever they so choose to do, such as beat the help. But if they thought the Master of the house was returning SOON, they would behave themselves. YOU teach human nature, but then don't want to apply it.
                              Jesus wanted every generation to believe His Return was imminent. So they would live RIGHT now. Those who would think Jesus is not coming back in their generation, are you saying they would NOT Do what Jesus said they would do? Think logically. Even that parable in and of itself, was in effect, teaching the hearer of it, to believe His Return would be in their lifetime.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              You are a victim of your own time, and don't know the bulk of history.
                              Tell me, since it seems you know so much about me, or presume that you do, tell me what part of bulk history do you think i am not aware of? Or will you not answer this either? It is written. If you are ask to do something that if you are able to do it, then you are to do it. Have i failed to answer every single question you have asked me? Yet, you seem to not answer the questions that i have asked you. Are you aware of the Golden Rule? When you ask a question, would you life a person to answer the question you ask? Therefore when someone ask you a question should you not try to answer it if you are able to do so? You accuse me of not knowing the bulk of history, i am asking you what part of the bulk of history do you think i am not aware of?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Only that can explain your utter frustration and hysteria.
                              And now you accuse me of also being frustrated, and hysterical. If then you accuse me, should you not reveal the proof of these things with the accusation? Would that not be a Godly thing to do?

                              Tell me, which is asking you something yet again. Tell me, have i accused YOU of anything at all? Have i called you a name of any kind? Have i accused you of, well anything? If i have reveal where i have done this thing, that i have Accused YOU personally. And if i did accuse you of something, did i present the evidence that supports the accusation? i seriously don't recall accusing you of anything at all, Not saying i haven't, only saying i don't recall doing so. And i know me, if i did accuse you of something, then i would quote to you the proof that what i accused is True.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              I already told you about those who believed in the Millennial Day theory. They obviously did *not* expect Christ imminently.
                              And i likewise responded to this statement, saying that the theory of Millennial Day is a NEW theory, Not something that has been believed in past generations.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              The "nearness" of Christ's Return is not always viewed the way you're applying it, in the sense that he could come today, or even in any generation.
                              Jesus can't come today, never said He could, All Prophecies must be fulfilled first that are prophecies prior to His Return, else God lies. And don't assume that i know when He is going to Return, i absolutely have no ideal whatsoever when He is going to Return, it could be another thousand years from now, i know not. But i do know, that all prophecies concerning His Second Return is going to be fulfilled BEFORE He Returns. Therefore He can't return until those be fulfilled.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              If you look closely, you'll find Jesus was not talking about looking directly for his Coming to take place immediately. Rather, he was telling them to *look forward* to his Coming so that in expecting his judgment they would prepare themselves by living spiritual and moral lives.
                              You did not answer the question i asked, i did not ask you what Jesus thought or what He meant by saying "Watch" i asked you what the people would think by what He was saying.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Being "alert" was directly related to avoiding things that distract our view of Jesus--things such as false prophets and false Christs, or false presentations of God's Kingdom on earth. We are to avoid things that distract us from godly living, etc.
                              True, but did not answer the question, seems you are avoiding answer, but say all this, to make it look as if you answered the question, but you didn't.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              This is how we "watch." We do not watch in such a way that we think he could come today. That would contradict with what he said about not being distracted by prophetic expectations and calculations about the timing of prophetic events. Rather, we are to be concerned with our own time, knowing that the Kingdom will come at the end of our collective job, and not before!
                              NOT asking why Jesus said "Watch" did you not understand the question i ask? Should i ask it another way? Here is the same question again.


                              Originally posted by Disciple-Dave

                              Tell me something else, WHY would Jesus tell those people to WATCH for His RETURN, knowing full well that He was NOT going to Return until the Last Days? Answer me if you are able to, Why would Jesus tell them to WATCH for His Return, knowing that He is NOT returning in their lifetime. When you can understand why our Lord told them to WATCH, then you can begin to understand all that i said in my post concerning this topic. But if you don't understand WHY He told that generation to "WATCH" then you will most certainly NOT understand the post i gave.
                              Please try to answer those questions, you and i both know what it actually means to Watch, i want to know what those people would believe by Jesus telling them to WATCH, Would they NOT believe that Jesus was coming back in their own lifetime, if Jesus is instructing these people to WATCH for Him?


                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Hope I help somebody here, if not you.
                              Hope is a Godly thing, unless a person is hoping to get lucky tonight, not being married. humor there. Well i think so anyways.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                One step more... Christ-likeness!! As you, me and many teach, those who KNOW Christ become more like Him, are remolded into, are sanctified unto Jesus. From this, you do not have all the negative aspects in "the Church/Body of Christ," that Paul is led to warn about. When a church is filled with those bearing the fruit described in these verses, "who or WHAT" are they being molded into, becoming like?

                                Thus WHY Paul warns that such people don't know the truth and don't know Christ because if they did, then they would not become like all that Paul describes as evidence as NOT knowing the truth, hmmm
                                You are correct. However, the enduring nature of Paul's warning is that until Jesus Christ returns, there will always be vessels of wood and of earth (2 Tim 2:20) that interact with the vessels of gold and silver. IOW, there will always be lip-professing Christians devoid of Christ' character (Christlikeness) and they will continue to mix with genuine believers (vessels of gold and silver).

                                So Paul's warning in 2 Tim 3 is pretty apt because it is not limited to atheists but nominal Christians too.

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