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Is Once Saved, Always Saved a Scriptural doctrine

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  • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

    As I have said not all in the church will be saved, because they did not have faith in Christ only. They also relied on their own efforts which will disqualify you of salvation. You are either justified in Christ or not. Being saved does not mean you can live as you want, but that does not make your salvation less certain.
    Correction in terminology here: The Kingdom of God, the Church, the Bride of Christ all are synonymous terms for the saved. And individual may worship with a congregation and may think he is part of the Church, but if he is not saved then he is not (in God's eyes) part of the Church. When I say "the Church" I am speaking of those who are really saved. Those who have believed, repented, confessed Jesus as their Lord, and been immersed into Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and then has tried to live for Christ faithfully from that point on. Anyone who has not done these things is not part of the Kingdom, they are not saved.

    The passage in question here says that the Kingdom of God is likened to the virgins. The virgins represent the Church. They are "in Christ" at the beginning of the parable. Five of them are wise and keep watch so that they are right with God when the Bridegroom (Jesus) comes (the second coming). Five of them are unwise, and do not keep watch, the are not prepared when Jesus comes (the second coming). The wise five are taken into the wedding feast with the Bridegroom, but the unwise five are left in darkness outside. And when they knock and Jesus answers, He tells them, "I don't know you." Which can be balanced against what He tells the false prophets in Matt 7, "I never knew you." These virgins He did know at one time, but He doesn't know them now, because they were not ready for His coming when He actually came. As He says in Matt 24:42, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

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    • Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

      Agreed. Consider the seed that fell on stony ground. He immediately receives the word with joy. But falls away.
      Are receiving the word the same as receiving faith?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

        Correction in terminology here: The Kingdom of God, the Church, the Bride of Christ all are synonymous terms for the saved. And individual may worship with a congregation and may think he is part of the Church, but if he is not saved then he is not (in God's eyes) part of the Church. When I say "the Church" I am speaking of those who are really saved. Those who have believed, repented, confessed Jesus as their Lord, and been immersed into Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and then has tried to live for Christ faithfully from that point on. Anyone who has not done these things is not part of the Kingdom, they are not saved.

        The passage in question here says that the Kingdom of God is likened to the virgins. The virgins represent the Church. They are "in Christ" at the beginning of the parable. Five of them are wise and keep watch so that they are right with God when the Bridegroom (Jesus) comes (the second coming). Five of them are unwise, and do not keep watch, the are not prepared when Jesus comes (the second coming). The wise five are taken into the wedding feast with the Bridegroom, but the unwise five are left in darkness outside. And when they knock and Jesus answers, He tells them, "I don't know you." Which can be balanced against what He tells the false prophets in Matt 7, "I never knew you." These virgins He did know at one time, but He doesn't know them now, because they were not ready for His coming when He actually came. As He says in Matt 24:42, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."
        I cannot agree with this explanation. Read Mat 13 the other parables of the kingdom of God to give you context. In most of those parables you have saved and unsaved which will be separated when Jesus came. Still they were part of the "church". I do not see the virgins as representing saved believers, but saved and unsaved believers/church goers. The Church is here the kingdom of God.

        Also the word used in Mat 7 is one that shows that Jesus never knew them ever, not had forgotten but knew them once. So your understanding is also incorrect of this.

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        • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

          I cannot agree with this explanation. Read Mat 13 the other parables of the kingdom of God to give you context. In most of those parables you have saved and unsaved which will be separated when Jesus came. Still they were part of the "church". I do not see the virgins as representing saved believers, but saved and unsaved believers/church goers. The Church is here the kingdom of God.

          Also the word used in Mat 7 is one that shows that Jesus never knew them ever, not had forgotten but knew them once. So your understanding is also incorrect of this.
          That is exactly my point about Matt 7. There Jesus says, "I NEVER knew you." In Matt 25 Jesus says, "I DON'T know you." The difference is subtle, but significant.

          The difference between the "saved" and "not saved" (at Judgement) in the parables in Matt 13 tell the same story that the parable in Matt 25 does. The difference is that the parable in Matt 25 says, these people all began (the parable) as saved members of the Church, but ended the parable as not saved. The parables in Matt 13 don't make that distinction, they just say that there will be saved and not saved. So there is no contradiction in this interpretation of the parable of the virgins.

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          • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

            Are receiving the word the same as receiving faith?
            I don't know. What's the difference between receiving the word and rejecting the word?

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            • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

              Can you give me the Scripture where Christ refers to the 10 virgins as saved saints?
              Now what do you think the 10 virgins represent, if they are not the saints spoken of? 2Co 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
              To God be the Glory

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                That is exactly my point about Matt 7. There Jesus says, "I NEVER knew you." In Matt 25 Jesus says, "I DON'T know you." The difference is subtle, but significant.

                The difference between the "saved" and "not saved" (at Judgement) in the parables in Matt 13 tell the same story that the parable in Matt 25 does. The difference is that the parable in Matt 25 says, these people all began (the parable) as saved members of the Church, but ended the parable as not saved. The parables in Matt 13 don't make that distinction, they just say that there will be saved and not saved. So there is no contradiction in this interpretation of the parable of the virgins.
                I do not see that all were saved in Mat 25. The kingdom of God as represented by the Church have believers and unbelievers as members, saved and unsaved. The foolish virgins were never saved because they thought wrongly that because they are part of the church they would be saved.

                The point of Mat 7:23 is that Jesus never knew those that professed that they knew Him. He never knew them and they were never saved although they prophesied, cast out devils and did many miracles in His name.

                You can only know Christ by faith.

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                • Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

                  I don't know. What's the difference between receiving the word and rejecting the word?
                  The one is receiving and the other is rejecting.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                    Now what do you think the 10 virgins represent, if they are not the saints spoken of? 2Co 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
                    The church. The true church only has saints, but the visible church as represented here has saints and unbelievers.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

                      I do not see that all were saved in Mat 25. The kingdom of God as represented by the Church have believers and unbelievers as members, saved and unsaved. The foolish virgins were never saved because they thought wrongly that because they are part of the church they would be saved.

                      The point of Mat 7:23 is that Jesus never knew those that professed that they knew Him. He never knew them and they were never saved although they prophesied, cast out devils and did many miracles in His name.

                      You can only know Christ by faith.
                      No. To be saved is to be part of the Church, the Kingdom of God. You can attend worship with the Church, call yourself part of the Church, and look to the world as part of the Church, but if you have not been saved, then you are not part of the Church. These virgins represent the Church (those who have been saved). I agree with you that there are many who attend worship and call themselves part of the Church but they are not saved and they are not really part of the Church. But these virgins are saved, they are the Church, because Jesus says the Kingdom of God (the saved) is like them.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

                        The church. The true church only has saints, but the visible church as represented here has saints and unbelievers.
                        Exactly, the TRUE Church has only saints, and Jesus is talking about the TRUE Church, The Kingdom of God. Not the earthly representation that can fool other humans. God is not fooled. He knows who are His and who are not. He says the Kingdom of God (the true Church) is like these virgins.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                          No. To be saved is to be part of the Church, the Kingdom of God. You can attend worship with the Church, call yourself part of the Church, and look to the world as part of the Church, but if you have not been saved, then you are not part of the Church. These virgins represent the Church (those who have been saved). I agree with you that there are many who attend worship and call themselves part of the Church but they are not saved and they are not really part of the Church. But these virgins are saved, they are the Church, because Jesus says the Kingdom of God (the saved) is like them.
                          Mat 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like this. A man sowed good seed in his field.
                          Mat 13:25 One night, when everyone was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

                          Kingdom with wheat and weeds.

                          Mat 13:31 Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like this. A man takes a mustard seed and sows it in his field.
                          Mat 13:32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it grows up, it is the biggest of all plants. It becomes a tree, so that birds come and make their nests in its branches."

                          Kingdom where birds came and nest in. (birds being unclean)

                          I agree with you that the true Church has only believers in it, but not the visible church. I believe that in these parables as well as in Mat 25 the Lord speak to the visible church from which the true church is a part of. Foolish and wise virgins.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

                            Mat 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like this. A man sowed good seed in his field.
                            Mat 13:25 One night, when everyone was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

                            Kingdom with wheat and weeds.

                            Mat 13:31 Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like this. A man takes a mustard seed and sows it in his field.
                            Mat 13:32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it grows up, it is the biggest of all plants. It becomes a tree, so that birds come and make their nests in its branches."

                            Kingdom where birds came and nest in. (birds being unclean)

                            I agree with you that the true Church has only believers in it, but not the visible church. I believe that in these parables as well as in Mat 25 the Lord speak to the visible church from which the true church is a part of. Foolish and wise virgins.
                            The kingdom in Matt 13:24 is the field with the good seed. The enemy planted the weed seed in the field also, but the weed seed was not of the Kingdom. It was WITH the Kingdom, but not IN the Kingdom.

                            Most birds are clean animals, not unclean. But this parable does not support your contention. This parable is more about the far reaching influence of the Kingdom. Jesus is the mustard seed. He is sown in the field (Earth) and when His Kingdom is grown, it will be larger than any other.

                            Comment


                            • Eternal life is given at the first resurrection at the next age, when Christ comes again.

                              Mark 10:29-30
                              So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

                              Luke 18:29-30
                              So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

                              John 6:40-54
                              And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
                              The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
                              Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
                              The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
                              Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

                              1 Corinthians 15:14-20, 51-54
                              And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep...Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

                              1 Peter 5:4
                              and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

                              2 Timothy 4:7-8
                              I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

                                I don't know. What's the difference between receiving the word and rejecting the word?
                                “It was necessary that God's word [the Good News of Salvation] should be given to you first; but since you reject it, and judge everlasting life through faith in Christ of no worth, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. ...And all those who had been ordained to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior]. And so the word of the Lord [salvation through faith in Christ] ran swiftly. Acts 13:46-49

                                Pray that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men;
                                for not all have faith.
                                3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and shield you...2 Thess 3

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