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  • A Study of Angels

    A Study of Angels

    As I determined to better understand angels, it seemed to me that the translators have caused us to be greatly confused about exactly what or who angels in Scripture are. I possess an older Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture that helps me to see angels in new light because it, like the Young’s Literal translation has translated angelos as messenger.

    Instead of translating the Greek word ‘ang'-el-os’as angel the YLT has translated angelos as ‘messenger’. In doing this the student of the Word is left to discern whether angelos is a spirit messenger of God, a human messenger of God, a spirit messenger of Satan, or a human messenger of Satan. The context determines which is proper. When we always read angelos as an angelic spirit of God from heaven we can come up with some pretty strange doctrine concerning angels. (in my humble opinion)

    I’ll be using the Young’s Literal translation for this study.

    Since 2 Peter 2:4- 8 is one of the most misunderstood (in my humble opinion) verses of Scripture, I thought it prudent to begin there in an effort to keep this somewhat brief. But it is necessary to read the context in each passage.

    2Pe 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
    2Pe 2:2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
    2Pe 2:3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
    2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
    2Pe 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
    2Pe 2:6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
    2Pe 2:7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
    2Pe 2:8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.

    Cross reference: Jude 3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints,
    Jude 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,
    Jude 5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;
    Jude 6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
    Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
    Jude 8 In like manner, nevertheless, those dreaming also the flesh indeed do defile, and lordship they put away, and dignities they speak evil of,
    Jude 9 yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, `The Lord rebuke thee!'

    Looking at the context of these two passages I don’t view these messengers as angels from heaven (spirit beings), but as human messengers. Before adding more evidence from Scripture for why I believer the messengers in this passage are human, I would first like to be shown why some or all of you do not agree with my initial thinking on this, and why. The only messenger in the passage I believe spirit is Michael, the chief messenger.

    These messengers of God who sinned are likened to humans, who lived in the time of Noah, Moses and Abraham. So the question is who are the human messengers of God, who turned against God and brought this condemnation upon themselves.

    Blessings,

    Last edited by RogerW; Mar 25 2020, 02:07 PM. Reason: I had inadvertently duplicated 2 Pe, and also added commentary about Michael

  • #2
    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
    I don't view these messengers as angels from heaven (spirit beings), but as human messengers. Before adding more evidence from Scripture for why I believer the messengers in this passage are human, I would first like to be shown why some or all of you do not agree with my initial thinking on this, and why. The only messenger in the passage I believe spirit is Michael, the chief messenger.
    Sure.

    First, let's see the main argument of 2 Peter 2, which the surrounding text is used to support:

    The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. (2 Peter 2:9)

    Peter's proofs:

    1) He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah (v5)
    2) Sodom and Gomorrah he condemned to extinction, [but] he rescued righteous Lot (v6-7)
    3) God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus (v4)

    Jude is more interested in demonstrating the punishment aspect:

    1) Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 5)
    2) The angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains. (v6)
    3) Sodom and Gomorrah ... serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (v7)

    Peter and Jude then both illustrate the severity of the false teachers' practices which they were witnessing - going beyond even what heavenly angels would dare to do - blasphemous judgment:

    Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction. (2 Peter)

    Yet in like manner these people also ... reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. (Jude)

    So a synopsis of both 2 Peter 2 and Jude on this topic could read:

    God has proven that He judges both humans and angels, yet shockingly, there are humans (who are less powerful than angels) who are so bold as to sin in a way that even the angels - even the mightiest of angels in Michael, would not dare to commit. In other words, here are Biblical examples proving that angels and humans are judged equally, in order to make the argument clear that these false teachers will suffer a terrible destruction that even angels fear.

    This would not be communicated if the "angels" mentioned prior to Michael were human - as the function of Michael's example is only to provide contrast between angels and humans, versus the earlier comparisons.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
      >snip<
      Something to consider also... this is why the 7 letters that John was commanded to write, were delivered to the "human" senior leader (angel), of each of those 7 churches.

      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RogerW View Post
        A Study of Angels

        As I determined to better understand angels, it seemed to me that the translators have caused us to be greatly confused about exactly what or who angels in Scripture are. I possess an older Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture that helps me to see angels in new light because it, like the Young’s Literal translation has translated angelos as messenger.

        Instead of translating the Greek word ‘ang'-el-os’as angel the YLT has translated angelos as ‘messenger’. In doing this the student of the Word is left to discern whether angelos is a spirit messenger of God, a human messenger of God, a spirit messenger of Satan, or a human messenger of Satan. The context determines which is proper. When we always read angelos as an angelic spirit of God from heaven we can come up with some pretty strange doctrine concerning angels. (in my humble opinion)

        I’ll be using the Young’s Literal translation for this study.

        Since 2 Peter 2:4- 8 is one of the most misunderstood (in my humble opinion) verses of Scripture, I thought it prudent to begin there in an effort to keep this somewhat brief. But it is necessary to read the context in each passage.

        2Pe 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
        2Pe 2:2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
        2Pe 2:3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
        2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
        2Pe 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
        2Pe 2:6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
        2Pe 2:7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
        2Pe 2:8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.

        Cross reference: Jude 3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints,
        Jude 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,
        Jude 5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;
        Jude 6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
        Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
        Jude 8 In like manner, nevertheless, those dreaming also the flesh indeed do defile, and lordship they put away, and dignities they speak evil of,
        Jude 9 yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, `The Lord rebuke thee!'

        Looking at the context of these two passages I don’t view these messengers as angels from heaven (spirit beings), but as human messengers. Before adding more evidence from Scripture for why I believer the messengers in this passage are human, I would first like to be shown why some or all of you do not agree with my initial thinking on this, and why. The only messenger in the passage I believe spirit is Michael, the chief messenger.

        These messengers of God who sinned are likened to humans, who lived in the time of Noah, Moses and Abraham. So the question is who are the human messengers of God, who turned against God and brought this condemnation upon themselves.

        Blessings,
        It is true that the root meaning of the word we render "angel" is messenger. But the "messengers" of 2nd Peter 2:4 are angels. There are two proofs., and they are found in

        (1) 1st Peter 3:18-20.

        18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
        19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
        20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


        For some unknown reason (to me) a large contingent of Christianity ignore the garmmar of verse 19 and maintain that while Christ was in Hades, He preached to the spirits in hell. But the SUBJECT of the sentence is the Holy Spirit. If we were to write verses 18 to 19 in elementary school, we would write thus. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which SPIRIT also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison ... ." That is, the Holy Spirit, which raised Christ from the dead, ALSO was the same Holy Spirit who preached, via inspiring Noah, to the SPIRITS who were disobedient in Noah's time, BUT WHICH ARE NOW IN PRISON.

        Now, at Noah's time angels mixed with human women. They are called" the sons of God", and by defining scripture with scripture, the "sons of God" are angels (see Job.38:7). And they are in a PRISON called Tartaroo, and they are called SPIRITS. Throughout the Bible, man is regarded as a SOUL, but two scriptures gives plainly the fact that angels are called SPIRITS. They are:

        Psalm 104:4; "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire", and
        Hebrews 1:7;
        "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

        (2) The second proof is that HADES is the place of the SOULS of dead men - not their spirits. The spirit of man is in the man until death, and then it returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). These in TARTAROO are SPIRITS - the spirits who mates with women in Noah's time "and after this" (Gen.6:4).

        Thus, the "messengers" of 2nd Peter 2 are angels and spirits (and still messengers).

        When a man, or group of men, sit down to translate the Bible, they have to look at the individual words and be accurate (that is why I'm against dynamic translations). But if the evidence of the rest of the Bible offers a second, or more solution to the word, it must be considered. For instance, the word "messenger" is also the meaning of "Apostles". But we have to consider, from the context, whether an Apostle is meant, or simply a messenger. The OFFICE of Apostle had great power in the Church, but messenger just brings the message and has no special power in the Church. So also the word "EKklesia". It is usually rendered "CHURCH", but in Acts 7:38 it does not mean the Church of Christ, but the Israel of old. And then, in Acts 19:32-41 it is used three times to describe a heathen political government of a city. Context is everything.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Aviyah View Post

          Sure.

          First, let's see the main argument of 2 Peter 2, which the surrounding text is used to support:

          The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. (2 Peter 2:9)

          Peter's proofs:

          1) He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah (v5)
          2) Sodom and Gomorrah he condemned to extinction, [but] he rescued righteous Lot (v6-7)
          3) God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus (v4)

          Jude is more interested in demonstrating the punishment aspect:

          1) Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 5)
          2) The angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains. (v6)
          3) Sodom and Gomorrah ... serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (v7)

          Peter and Jude then both illustrate the severity of the false teachers' practices which they were witnessing - going beyond even what heavenly angels would dare to do - blasphemous judgment:

          Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction. (2 Peter)

          Yet in like manner these people also ... reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. (Jude)

          So a synopsis of both 2 Peter 2 and Jude on this topic could read:

          God has proven that He judges both humans and angels, yet shockingly, there are humans (who are less powerful than angels) who are so bold as to sin in a way that even the angels - even the mightiest of angels in Michael, would not dare to commit. In other words, here are Biblical examples proving that angels and humans are judged equally, in order to make the argument clear that these false teachers will suffer a terrible destruction that even angels fear.

          This would not be communicated if the "angels" mentioned prior to Michael were human - as the function of Michael's example is only to provide contrast between angels and humans, versus the earlier comparisons.
          Thanks Aviyah, your reasoning is well thought out, makes sense, and is easy to understand. My thinking on this goes back to the day of Cain and Noah.








          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
            Something to consider also... this is why the 7 letters that John was commanded to write, were delivered to the "human" senior leader (angel), of each of those 7 churches.
            Yes, that's a good point. It would have been so much easier, I believe to discern angels, if the translators would have simply left it up to us to decide according to context whether messengers are human or spirit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RogerW View Post

              Yes, that's a good point. It would have been so much easier, I believe to discern angels, if the translators would have simply left it up to us to decide according to context whether messengers are human or spirit.
              There is never a single human leader over any church in Scripture. In every case where the leadership of a congregation is mentioned, it is always in the plural (Elders), never elder.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                A Study of Angels

                As I determined to better understand angels, it seemed to me that the translators have caused us to be greatly confused about exactly what or who angels in Scripture are. I possess an older Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture that helps me to see angels in new light because it, like the Young’s Literal translation has translated angelos as messenger.

                Instead of translating the Greek word ‘ang'-el-os’as angel the YLT has translated angelos as ‘messenger’. In doing this the student of the Word is left to discern whether angelos is a spirit messenger of God, a human messenger of God, a spirit messenger of Satan, or a human messenger of Satan. The context determines which is proper. When we always read angelos as an angelic spirit of God from heaven we can come up with some pretty strange doctrine concerning angels. (in my humble opinion)

                I’ll be using the Young’s Literal translation for this study.

                Since 2 Peter 2:4- 8 is one of the most misunderstood (in my humble opinion) verses of Scripture, I thought it prudent to begin there in an effort to keep this somewhat brief. But it is necessary to read the context in each passage.

                2Pe 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
                2Pe 2:2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
                2Pe 2:3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
                2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
                2Pe 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
                2Pe 2:6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
                2Pe 2:7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
                2Pe 2:8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.

                Cross reference: Jude 3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints,
                Jude 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,
                Jude 5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;
                Jude 6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
                Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
                Jude 8 In like manner, nevertheless, those dreaming also the flesh indeed do defile, and lordship they put away, and dignities they speak evil of,
                Jude 9 yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, `The Lord rebuke thee!'

                Looking at the context of these two passages I don’t view these messengers as angels from heaven (spirit beings), but as human messengers. Before adding more evidence from Scripture for why I believer the messengers in this passage are human, I would first like to be shown why some or all of you do not agree with my initial thinking on this, and why. The only messenger in the passage I believe spirit is Michael, the chief messenger.

                These messengers of God who sinned are likened to humans, who lived in the time of Noah, Moses and Abraham. So the question is who are the human messengers of God, who turned against God and brought this condemnation upon themselves.

                Blessings,
                The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak" and by definition it does mean "messenger." It all depends on the context of how the word is used. Real angels like Michael and Gabriel are actual angels. Angels can also appear in human form like at Genesis 18 where two of the angels are actual angels and the third person identified as "the angel of the Lord" is the preincarnate Jesus Christ temporarily in human form.

                The following is what Malachi 3:1 states, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." This verse is loaded with good information. The messenger/angel who will clear the way of the Lord is John the Baptist. see Mark 1:1-4.
                Who do you think is the "angel/messenger" of the covenant that will come to His temple?

                Regarding you question? I believe the "Nephilim" are not angels but rather men of stature like Anak and Goliath.

                IN GOD THE SON,
                maverick



                Comment


                • #9
                  Angels are spirits there are created angels and there are some non created angels. The angel of the Lord is not created.

                  Likewise the seven spirits of god are not created either. They are the seven eyes of the lamb or the seven angels.

                  So god can manifest is a plant a animal a man but not an angel?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by maverick View Post

                    Regarding you question? I believe the "Nephilim" are not angels but rather men of stature like Anak and Goliath.
                    The Nephilim had angel fathers and human mothers. their human bodies drowned in the flood but their spirits still wander earth as demons, ghosts, poltergeists, etc.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                      These messengers of God who sinned are likened to humans, who lived in the time of Noah, Moses and Abraham. So the question is who are the human messengers of God, who turned against God and brought this condemnation upon themselves.
                      Once again Roger calls GOD a liar and changes the Bible to make it say what Roger wants it to say.

                      2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 clearly means angels who had been watching humans enjoying sex and wanting to try it themselves had materialised human bodies.

                      Here is such an angel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-TrAvp_xs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                        There is never a single human leader over any church in Scripture. In every case where the leadership of a congregation is mentioned, it is always in the plural (Elders), never elder.
                        Yeah, I think the angels in Rev is plural because there are seven letters, but I don't really see why the seven stars (angels) of the seven churches must be interpreted singularly. I agree that God has set up His Church to be overseen by a plurality of elders. Thanks for the input.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Walls View Post

                          It is true that the root meaning of the word we render "angel" is messenger. But the "messengers" of 2nd Peter 2:4 are angels. There are two proofs., and they are found in

                          (1) 1st Peter 3:18-20.

                          18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
                          19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
                          20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


                          For some unknown reason (to me) a large contingent of Christianity ignore the garmmar of verse 19 and maintain that while Christ was in Hades, He preached to the spirits in hell. But the SUBJECT of the sentence is the Holy Spirit. If we were to write verses 18 to 19 in elementary school, we would write thus. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which SPIRIT also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison ... ." That is, the Holy Spirit, which raised Christ from the dead, ALSO was the same Holy Spirit who preached, via inspiring Noah, to the SPIRITS who were disobedient in Noah's time, BUT WHICH ARE NOW IN PRISON.

                          Now, at Noah's time angels mixed with human women. They are called" the sons of God", and by defining scripture with scripture, the "sons of God" are angels (see Job.38:7). And they are in a PRISON called Tartaroo, and they are called SPIRITS. Throughout the Bible, man is regarded as a SOUL, but two scriptures gives plainly the fact that angels are called SPIRITS. They are:

                          Psalm 104:4; "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire", and
                          Hebrews 1:7;
                          "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

                          (2) The second proof is that HADES is the place of the SOULS of dead men - not their spirits. The spirit of man is in the man until death, and then it returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). These in TARTAROO are SPIRITS - the spirits who mates with women in Noah's time "and after this" (Gen.6:4).

                          Thus, the "messengers" of 2nd Peter 2 are angels and spirits (and still messengers).

                          When a man, or group of men, sit down to translate the Bible, they have to look at the individual words and be accurate (that is why I'm against dynamic translations). But if the evidence of the rest of the Bible offers a second, or more solution to the word, it must be considered. For instance, the word "messenger" is also the meaning of "Apostles". But we have to consider, from the context, whether an Apostle is meant, or simply a messenger. The OFFICE of Apostle had great power in the Church, but messenger just brings the message and has no special power in the Church. So also the word "EKklesia". It is usually rendered "CHURCH", but in Acts 7:38 it does not mean the Church of Christ, but the Israel of old. And then, in Acts 19:32-41 it is used three times to describe a heathen political government of a city. Context is everything.
                          Thanks for the input Walls. I agree that Noah preached through the Spirit of God, but he preached to humans, not spirits. I don't believe these spirits in prison in the day of Noah were literally in prison, but spiritually in prison. Since righteous Noah preached to those alive in his day, they would have known God. These "sons of God" were without excuse, to disobey God and take wives of unbelievers, i.e. daughters of men. They were those who were sometimes disobedient while the ark was being built. I don't believe Christ literally went by the Spirit to preach to men who have died. I don't think that's what you are saying, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't believe that. It was because they were disobedient that they were not saved from the flood. Since they died in unbelief, I believe they, like every unbeliever who dies is waiting in darkness and silence until the Lord raises them bodily to stand before God in the Judgment.

                          I also believe the two verses Ps 104:4 and Heb 1:7 both speak of spirit messengers (angels) of God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by maverick View Post

                            The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak" and by definition it does mean "messenger." It all depends on the context of how the word is used. Real angels like Michael and Gabriel are actual angels. Angels can also appear in human form like at Genesis 18 where two of the angels are actual angels and the third person identified as "the angel of the Lord" is the preincarnate Jesus Christ temporarily in human form.

                            The following is what Malachi 3:1 states, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." This verse is loaded with good information. The messenger/angel who will clear the way of the Lord is John the Baptist. see Mark 1:1-4.
                            Who do you think is the "angel/messenger" of the covenant that will come to His temple?

                            Regarding you question? I believe the "Nephilim" are not angels but rather men of stature like Anak and Goliath.

                            IN GOD THE SON,
                            maverick
                            Thanks Maverick, this too is good information, I appreciate the input. I agree the Nephilim are not angels, and neither are the sons of God.

                            Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              Angels are spirits there are created angels and there are some non created angels. The angel of the Lord is not created.

                              Likewise the seven spirits of god are not created either. They are the seven eyes of the lamb or the seven angels.

                              So god can manifest is a plant a animal a man but not an angel?
                              This is interesting. Do you know of any verses that speak specifically of angels being created?

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