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  • #46
    We read in the Book of Daniel, how when the prophet first began to pray about his people, Gabriel was dispatched but met hindrance with "the prince of Persia". Who was obviously a fallen angel. (Daniel 10)
    So here is an example of powers and principalities behind human authority, and thrones on earth.

    So, we can see how the devil is also addressed in Ezekiel 28, with respect to the King of Tyre.

    As well, I've made equation between Revelation 12 involving the "stars", flung to the earth by the dragon's tail, and the fall of humanity, from the Garden.
    I believe we may be reading about humanity's actual origins in the Spirit.
    "Stars" represent both angels and people alike in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
    (See Daniel 12:3)
    The Spirit, I believe, is the greater reality, above this temporary life in the material "world".
    So, humanity's actual origin may involve the angelic, from which we are lost, and are in need of redemption, thereto.
    Which was accomplished by Jesus on the "tree", as long prophesied that He would.
    According to God's plan, since the beginning, when He established the atoning practices, after the Law was given through Moses.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by RogerW View Post

      But what you are missing or denying is that God created the serpent! He did not make the serpent, which I think you will agree signifies Satan, an angel of God who fell! We've already established that Satan and his demonic spirit messengers had access to heaven prior to the advent of Christ. You showed the verses from Job.

      Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

      No one is denying that demons/devils and the father of lies; Satan exists. However Satan and his minions are defeated foes. The purpose for which God created the serpent, making him more cunning and crafty was to test humans, fully aware that humans would not obey Him and bring sin and death into His creation. We know that God uses the serpent so that man, through the fall will know the depth of Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God knew mankind would fall, and uses the serpent to accomplish this...why? Was it necessary for man to fall so they would know evil as well as good, in order to know the depth of Christ's love for His own? I believe that all evil that exists in this world, including the demonic hosts, led by Satan are all part of God's plan, and God uses them and the evil that men do according to His purpose. How could we know to love God is we never know evil.

      Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

      There is always an antithesis, we cannot know light with darkness, and we cannot know good unless we know evil.
      God didn't create "evil." He creates diversity and calamity. Some define this as "evil."

      God created the snake, which satan "took" the form of, to deceive Eve. But, I agree that God created "the serpent" meaning, satan as well.

      Let me know in all those verses in the link, if any deny satan and other angels, fell from heaven when they rebelled. If you can find any verse that shows us satan didn't fall from heaven, then we have a serious question to ask of Jesus, who fesses up, that He watched satan fall (get booted) out of heaven.
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sirius18 View Post
        We read in the Book of Daniel, how when the prophet first began to pray about his people, Gabriel was dispatched but met hindrance with "the prince of Persia". Who was obviously a fallen angel. (Daniel 10)
        So here is an example of powers and principalities behind human authority, and thrones on earth.

        So, we can see how the devil is also addressed in Ezekiel 28, with respect to the King of Tyre.

        As well, I've made equation between Revelation 12 involving the "stars", flung to the earth by the dragon's tail, and the fall of humanity, from the Garden.
        I believe we may be reading about humanity's actual origins in the Spirit.
        "Stars" represent both angels and people alike in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
        (See Daniel 12:3)
        The Spirit, I believe, is the greater reality, above this temporary life in the material "world".
        So, humanity's actual origin may involve the angelic, from which we are lost, and are in need of redemption, thereto.
        Which was accomplished by Jesus on the "tree", as long prophesied that He would.
        According to God's plan, since the beginning, when He established the atoning practices, after the Law was given through Moses.
        There is no doubt that Satan has power over unbelieving man. What I have been arguing against is that Satan and his demons/devils are fallen angels of God.

        What do the stars represent? Are they not the same as the stars we find in v 12:1? The woman wore "upon her head a crown of twelve stars". These twelve stars symbolize the tribes of the children of Israel through the twelve sons of Jacob. We read about humanity's origins in Genesis, not Rev 12.

        Daniel 12:1-3 is prophesy of the advent of Christ, which is what Rev 12 shows us. Christ is the man child born of the woman who is crowned by twelve stars. Daniel's prophesy has Michael standing up for the children of "thy people". The same way Michael fights against the dragon in Rev 12.

        Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
        Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
        Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

        Nowhere in Scripture have I found that angels of God have fallen!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          God didn't create "evil." He creates diversity and calamity. Some define this as "evil."

          God created the snake, which satan "took" the form of, to deceive Eve. But, I agree that God created "the serpent" meaning, satan as well.

          Let me know in all those verses in the link, if any deny satan and other angels, fell from heaven when they rebelled. If you can find any verse that shows us satan didn't fall from heaven, then we have a serious question to ask of Jesus, who fesses up, that He watched satan fall (get booted) out of heaven.
          Yes diversity and calamity, is that not what we find with the creation of the serpent? Show the Scripture to prove Satan simply took the form of the snake??? I haven't found it??? Satan rebelled from the beginning, he is a liar and murderer from creation. That is how he was able to deceive the woman, and cause sin and death through sin to enter creation. Every human is of their father the devil, until they are in Christ by grace through faith, when the hear the Gospel in the power of the Spirit and believe. Then we become children of God.

          John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

          I believe when God says He creates evil, He is speaking of having created the serpent, who is Satan and the Devil.

          When Christ speaks of watching Satan fall from heaven He does not say when He saw this. I believe Christ is alluding back to Rev 12 when Christ was born. He did not see with literal eyes, but through the Spirit.

          Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

          Christ was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and here we have confirmation that the casting out of heaven brought with it power and authority.

          Lu 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
          Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
          Lu 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
          Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

          Who cast out demons before the advent of Christ? Yet after His birth, when Satan was rejected from heaven we find not only Christ but the seventy having power over devils, and over all the power of the enemy.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by RogerW View Post

            Nowhere in Scripture have I found that angels of God have fallen!

            Satan can't create angels so all the angels loyal to him fell away from God including Satan himself.

            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


              Satan can't create angels so all the angels loyal to him fell away from God including Satan himself.
              There are no angels loyal to Satan. Those spirit beings loyal to Satan are demons and devils, not angels. I've never argued that Satan has created anything!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                There are no angels loyal to Satan. Those spirit beings loyal to Satan are demons and devils, not angels.
                Scripture disagrees with you.

                Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
                Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


                I've never argued that Satan has created anything!
                I didn't say you did.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                  Yes diversity and calamity, is that not what we find with the creation of the serpent? Show the Scripture to prove Satan simply took the form of the snake??? I haven't found it??? Satan rebelled from the beginning, he is a liar and murderer from creation. That is how he was able to deceive the woman, and cause sin and death through sin to enter creation. Every human is of their father the devil, until they are in Christ by grace through faith, when the hear the Gospel in the power of the Spirit and believe. Then we become children of God.

                  John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

                  I believe when God says He creates evil, He is speaking of having created the serpent, who is Satan and the Devil.

                  When Christ speaks of watching Satan fall from heaven He does not say when He saw this. I believe Christ is alluding back to Rev 12 when Christ was born. He did not see with literal eyes, but through the Spirit.

                  Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                  Christ was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and here we have confirmation that the casting out of heaven brought with it power and authority.

                  Lu 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
                  Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
                  Lu 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
                  Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

                  Who cast out demons before the advent of Christ? Yet after His birth, when Satan was rejected from heaven we find not only Christ but the seventy having power over devils, and over all the power of the enemy.
                  Some of the very scriptures you explain away, show us that satan fell from heaven. You are the one that said there is no scripture showing us that angels of God, fell from heaven. Yet, you USE some of the very scriptures that show us that satan and 1/3 the angels of God that sided with satan, were booted out of heaven. How is it possible to answer your question when you can't see... the answer that God's provided?

                  I will help you, again. Isaiah 14:12... God is revealing specifics about whom? A man on the earth that has a heart like satan, the man thinks he is above God, just as the scripture compares the man to Lucifier? As we see in the description of Lucifer's heart in v13? Or is v12 about Lucifer whom God IDs with specific claims of WHO Lucifer is? satan is the Morning Star, or son of the morning in some translations. These scriptures reveals THE FALL of Lucifer who is satan, from heaven.

                  You won't see this, or you can't see this?

                  A thought for you. The Bible reveals that God created the Lake of Fire for satan and his angels (Mt 25:41). The Bible reveals that Lucifer rebelled against God and deceived 1/3 of ALL the angels into siding with him (many verses already posted).

                  Ya can't think that created angels cannot transgress God, He KNEW they would and prepared a place for them BEFORE creation.
                  --
                  Slug1--out

                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                    These messengers of God who sinned are likened to humans, who lived in the time of Noah, Moses and Abraham. So the question is who are the human messengers of God, who turned against God and brought this condemnation upon themselves.

                    Blessings,
                    If you really want to know who they are, and what they are doing here, and what covenant they have with God. then read the following:

                    The Meaning of Life

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      Scripture disagrees with you.

                      Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                      Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
                      Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



                      I didn't say you did.
                      That really depends on the translation one chooses to use doesn't it.

                      Revelation 12:7 (YLT) And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                        Some of the very scriptures you explain away, show us that satan fell from heaven. You are the one that said there is no scripture showing us that angels of God, fell from heaven. Yet, you USE some of the very scriptures that show us that satan and 1/3 the angels of God that sided with satan, were booted out of heaven. How is it possible to answer your question when you can't see... the answer that God's provided?

                        I will help you, again. Isaiah 14:12... God is revealing specifics about whom? A man on the earth that has a heart like satan, the man thinks he is above God, just as the scripture compares the man to Lucifier? As we see in the description of Lucifer's heart in v13? Or is v12 about Lucifer whom God IDs with specific claims of WHO Lucifer is? satan is the Morning Star, or son of the morning in some translations. These scriptures reveals THE FALL of Lucifer who is satan, from heaven.

                        You won't see this, or you can't see this?

                        A thought for you. The Bible reveals that God created the Lake of Fire for satan and his angels (Mt 25:41). The Bible reveals that Lucifer rebelled against God and deceived 1/3 of ALL the angels into siding with him (many verses already posted).

                        Ya can't think that created angels cannot transgress God, He KNEW they would and prepared a place for them BEFORE creation.
                        Satan was cast from heaven to the earth by the birth of Christ. Once Messiah came to the earth there was no longer a place in heaven for the dragon, and his messengers. His being cast from heaven, vanquished by Christ, was all planned in eternity before the foundation of the world through Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Satan's being cast out was so he could no longer accuse believers before our God day and night as he had been able to do. He could not accuse them any longer because Christ defeated him in heaven, and by His death and resurrection Christ would defeat him on earth. The promise is true, regardless what man believes; Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The promise was made before creation, and so even before creating that old dragon called the serpent who is the devil and the Adversary of mankind stood no chance because God's promises are always YES and AMEN!

                        Of course God knew the serpent, whom He created to be the Adversary of mankind is a defeated foe, who would finally be cast into the Lake of Fire that was created for him and all his messengers, whether they be human messengers, and there are many, or whether they be spirit devils and demons, from before the foundation of the world their final abode was made ready to wait for the final day when they would be no more! Satan doesn't have to transgress against God, we read very clearly in the beginning how he uses his messengers to do his bidding against Christ and His Kingdom. In the beginning Satan's messengers were clearly God's first humans whom He created "very good".

                        I know how you read the Bible, believing it tells you Satan and his messengers are fallen angels. In this study I have shown why that old fairy tale is NOT true. It is a lie hoisted upon the Word, and has been perpetuated throughout the generations.

                        You won't see this, or you can't see this??? Perhaps I have helped others to see that we make the Adversary having greater power than God, if we think that God created him as a good angel, who fell. God's messengers (angels) are sent forth a gift from God to help those about to inherit salvation. God's spirit messengers (angels) protect God's own so they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit by grace through faith after hearing the Gospel and believing. NONE of them fail to do that which God has ordained from before the foundation of the world.

                        Heb 1:13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
                        Heb 1:14 are they not all spirits of service--for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                          Satan was cast from heaven to the earth by the birth of Christ. Once Messiah came to the earth there was no longer a place in heaven for the dragon, and his messengers. His being cast from heaven, vanquished by Christ, was all planned in eternity before the foundation of the world through Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Satan's being cast out was so he could no longer accuse believers before our God day and night as he had been able to do. He could not accuse them any longer because Christ defeated him in heaven, and by His death and resurrection Christ would defeat him on earth. The promise is true, regardless what man believes; Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The promise was made before creation, and so even before creating that old dragon called the serpent who is the devil and the Adversary of mankind stood no chance because God's promises are always YES and AMEN!

                          Of course God knew the serpent, whom He created to be the Adversary of mankind is a defeated foe, who would finally be cast into the Lake of Fire that was created for him and all his messengers, whether they be human messengers, and there are many, or whether they be spirit devils and demons, from before the foundation of the world their final abode was made ready to wait for the final day when they would be no more! Satan doesn't have to transgress against God, we read very clearly in the beginning how he uses his messengers to do his bidding against Christ and His Kingdom. In the beginning Satan's messengers were clearly God's first humans whom He created "very good".

                          I know how you read the Bible, believing it tells you Satan and his messengers are fallen angels. In this study I have shown why that old fairy tale is NOT true. It is a lie hoisted upon the Word, and has been perpetuated throughout the generations.

                          You won't see this, or you can't see this??? Perhaps I have helped others to see that we make the Adversary having greater power than God, if we think that God created him as a good angel, who fell. God's messengers (angels) are sent forth a gift from God to help those about to inherit salvation. God's spirit messengers (angels) protect God's own so they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit by grace through faith after hearing the Gospel and believing. NONE of them fail to do that which God has ordained from before the foundation of the world.

                          Heb 1:13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
                          Heb 1:14 are they not all spirits of service--for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?
                          You've interpreted the fact that satan (an angel) and 1/3 of the angels in heaven rebelled and were removed from heaven... away.

                          Rev 12:7-9 (Matthew 25:41 ; Luke 10:18), can't be interpreted away. satan and his forces were once angels in heaven who rebelled (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28), they attempted to do battle and were overthrown and cast out of heaven.

                          Question then based on your theology so far where angels did not become demons: are demons created spiritual (invisible) creatures apart from heaven but who entered heaven to do battle against God?

                          --
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                            You've interpreted the fact that satan (an angel) and 1/3 of the angels in heaven rebelled and were removed from heaven... away.

                            Rev 12:7-9 (Matthew 25:41 ; Luke 10:18), can't be interpreted away. satan and his forces were once angels in heaven who rebelled (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28), they attempted to do battle and were overthrown and cast out of heaven.

                            Question then based on your theology so far where angels did not become demons: are demons created spiritual (invisible) creatures apart from heaven but who entered heaven to do battle against God?
                            Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
                            Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                              Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
                              Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
                              Thank you for these verses. I posted v16 earlier I believe.

                              So, based on your input, I can assume you are answering 1/2 the question. So, it is established, as I believe it's always been established that angels are created.

                              Now, the other 1/2 of the question and I will reword it: Since you do not believe that demons are fallen angels (created separate from angels), and agree (I believe) that satan and demons DID rebel in heaven, got defeated and were cast out... did satan and the demons ENTER heaven (from somewhere else), to rebel/attack or were they already IN/part of heaven, and they rebelled and attacked from within heaven?
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                Thank you for these verses. I posted v16 earlier I believe.

                                So, based on your input, I can assume you are answering 1/2 the question. So, it is established, as I believe it's always been established that angels are created.

                                Now, the other 1/2 of the question and I will reword it: Since you do not believe that demons are fallen angels (created separate from angels), and agree (I believe) that satan and demons DID rebel in heaven, got defeated and were cast out... did satan and the demons ENTER heaven (from somewhere else), to rebel/attack or were they already IN/part of heaven, and they rebelled and attacked from within heaven?
                                Of course God created angels. I believe all things in heaven, upon the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, principalities, authorities are as God created. What I find Satan doing in heaven is accusing believers before the throne of God. Christ put an end to that by expelling Satan and his messengers from heaven. I don't see this as once being good, falling from a state of goodness, and then becoming Satan. In fact we read back in the book of Job how God gave Satan permission to do whatever he wished to Job, only he could not take Job's life. In the days of Job, and I believe until he was forcefully ejected from heaven, Satan was able to go to and fro heaven and earth at will. We get a pretty good example of how Satan was able to accuse believers before the face of God before he was forcefully ejected from the presence of God in heaven.

                                Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
                                Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
                                Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
                                Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
                                Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
                                Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
                                Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

                                Was Satan first a good angel, who fell, then decided to bring death and despair to the sons of God? Not according to Christ:

                                John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

                                Is this a new characteristic of the once good angel who became Satan? Not according to the creation account, when he lied and caused human to doubt the voice of God, and through his deception caused man to sin, and then death through sin.

                                All of this is through the providence and foreknowledge of God! Other wise why would Scripture say that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? God knows the beginning to the end. There is nothing that takes Him by surprise. Satan and his messengers are exactly what God created, and God uses the evil they delight in doing to bring about good for His own. We see a real clear example of this through Joseph and his brothers, when God says, Ge 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

                                Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


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