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    For example (and this is just an example of many things):

    I see people post in the main boards who believe that when we die, we have no awareness and no consciousness and our dead bodies lie in the grave awaiting the resurrection. They state that our souls do not go to be with the Lord or at least to a special heavenly place, or anything like that. (That's JW teaching).

    The above is just an example of many statements people make and argue about which according to the board rules, do not belong in the main boards, and often these board members end up trolling in the main boards, often quite nastily.

    So maybe the mods should create a list of questions which each new board member has to reply yes or no to, and no one will be permitted to post unless they first post a thread up with their answers to those yes/no questions?

    OR

    Maybe the mods can create a list which each board member has to copy and paste, and answer in his profile before being permitted to post?

    That way, the JW doctrine and other stuff can be kept where it should be.

    Just a suggestion. Maybe it would be a huge project and not worth the trouble - because I'm saying this not knowing if there is a way to lock people out of the main boards if they answer "Yes" to a question like, "Do you believe that when we die, we are dead, with no awareness or consciousness, and that our bodies simply remain in the grave awaiting the resurrection, and our souls go nowhere?

  • #2
    It's not only JW that believe there is no life after bodily death for Christians. This doctrine is believed by many professing Christians. I don't think they even realize that in believing this, they deny that Christians have eternal life when they believe. Yet this is a fundamental truth that Christ repeats many times in the Bible.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
      It's not only JW that believe there is no life after bodily death for Christians. This doctrine is believed by many professing Christians. I don't think they even realize that in believing this, they deny that Christians have eternal life when they believe. Yet this is a fundamental truth that Christ repeats many times in the Bible.
      Isn't Scripture clear in this? "Eternal" life is a gift of grace, Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" This "eternal" life is not in us - so we don't have it yet - but in Christ 1 John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son". We only get this when the Lord returns as Mark 10:30 (YLT) tells us "Who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, life age-during ". Or as KJV says eternal life and it will only be given the next aion or age.

      According to the Old Testament when we die we go to the sheool, this is the common grave, there we know nothing at all Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything ...". There is: "... for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going".

      Those who believe we can't die, believe Satan's lie of Gen. 3:4 "... Ye shall not surely die", and we all will, except for those believers who still live when the Lord comes for the second time and will be changed in a blink of an eye.
      "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
      a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
      rightly dividing the word of truth."
      2 Tim. 2:15

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
        For example (and this is just an example of many things):

        I see people post in the main boards who believe that when we die, we have no awareness and no consciousness and our dead bodies lie in the grave awaiting the resurrection. They state that our souls do not go to be with the Lord or at least to a special heavenly place, or anything like that. (That's JW teaching).

        The above is just an example of many statements people make and argue about which according to the board rules, do not belong in the main boards, and often these board members end up trolling in the main boards, often quite nastily.

        So maybe the mods should create a list of questions which each new board member has to reply yes or no to, and no one will be permitted to post unless they first post a thread up with their answers to those yes/no questions?

        OR

        Maybe the mods can create a list which each board member has to copy and paste, and answer in his profile before being permitted to post?

        That way, the JW doctrine and other stuff can be kept where it should be.

        Just a suggestion. Maybe it would be a huge project and not worth the trouble - because I'm saying this not knowing if there is a way to lock people out of the main boards if they answer "Yes" to a question like, "Do you believe that when we die, we are dead, with no awareness or consciousness, and that our bodies simply remain in the grave awaiting the resurrection, and our souls go nowhere?
        Just my opinion, but the Forum should be strong enough and clear enough to handle all false doctrine. A young Christian who is just born again, and was a witch before, needs a place where his old doctrines can be shown to be wrong. I'm for more freedom. The other direction will end with smoe posters calling for a ban on everything they don't agree with, not because it's wrong, but because they have not seen it. There are posters here with pitiful knowledge but with huge whips for flaying anybody who doesn't agree with them. We don't want them setting the guidelines.

        But I'm also in favor of government. Somebody must set the lines and enforce them. And so, where the Mods have set the lines, that's where we all stop.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

          Isn't Scripture clear in this? "Eternal" life is a gift of grace, Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" This "eternal" life is not in us - so we don't have it yet - but in Christ 1 John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son". We only get this when the Lord returns as Mark 10:30 (YLT) tells us "Who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, life age-during ". Or as KJV says eternal life and it will only be given the next aion or age.

          According to the Old Testament when we die we go to the sheool, this is the common grave, there we know nothing at all Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything ...". There is: "... for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going".

          Those who believe we can't die, believe Satan's lie of Gen. 3:4 "... Ye shall not surely die", and we all will, except for those believers who still live when the Lord comes for the second time and will be changed in a blink of an eye.
          I certainly do not believe that humans cannot die, the multitude of cemeteries prove otherwise. However the only thing that dies and goes into the grave to return to the dust from which it came, is our outer shell; our body of flesh. The flesh dies because when we are born again, and given eternal life it is life through His Spirit into in our spirits. That is why Christ, knowing our body dies, says "whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die". The promise is eternal life even though our body dies. That we possess eternal life from the moment we believe does not mean that it will only be eternal after our body is reunited with our eternal spirit. If it did, then Christ would not have promised the life we have when we BELIEVE is ETERNAL now.

          John 11:14 (KJV) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
          John 11:15 (KJV) And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

          John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
          John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

          Yes, I agree this eternal life given us is in the Son. When we are in Him, we have eternal life. John does not say we will have eternal life, but that we have in Him eternal life.

          1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

          Mark 10:30 (KJV) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

          In the world to come we will be clothed in bodies that are immortal and incorruptible because we HAVE eternal life in our spirits, through His Spirit in us NOW, in this life. And that is what Mark is saying. In the following passage Paul tells us flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but he does not say our spirits cannot enter the Kingdom in both this world and the world to come.

          1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
          1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
          1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.




          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Walls View Post

            Just my opinion, but the Forum should be strong enough and clear enough to handle all false doctrine. A young Christian who is just born again, and was a witch before, needs a place where his old doctrines can be shown to be wrong. I'm for more freedom. The other direction will end with smoe posters calling for a ban on everything they don't agree with, not because it's wrong, but because they have not seen it. There are posters here with pitiful knowledge but with huge whips for flaying anybody who doesn't agree with them. We don't want them setting the guidelines.

            But I'm also in favor of government. Somebody must set the lines and enforce them. And so, where the Mods have set the lines, that's where we all stop.
            Good answer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RogerW View Post

              I certainly do not believe that humans cannot die, the multitude of cemeteries prove otherwise. However the only thing that dies and goes into the grave to return to the dust from which it came, is our outer shell; our body of flesh. The flesh dies because when we are born again, and given eternal life it is life through His Spirit into in our spirits. That is why Christ, knowing our body dies, says "whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die". The promise is eternal life even though our body dies. That we possess eternal life from the moment we believe does not mean that it will only be eternal after our body is reunited with our eternal spirit. If it did, then Christ would not have promised the life we have when we BELIEVE is ETERNAL now.

              John 11:14 (KJV) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
              John 11:15 (KJV) And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

              John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
              John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

              Yes, I agree this eternal life given us is in the Son. When we are in Him, we have eternal life. John does not say we will have eternal life, but that we have in Him eternal life.

              1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

              Mark 10:30 (KJV) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

              In the world to come we will be clothed in bodies that are immortal and incorruptible because we HAVE eternal life in our spirits, through His Spirit in us NOW, in this life. And that is what Mark is saying. In the following passage Paul tells us flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but he does not say our spirits cannot enter the Kingdom in both this world and the world to come.

              1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
              1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
              1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
              1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
              But that is what your stating, just see what you say:

              Originally posted by RogerW
              I see people post in the main boards who believe that when we die, we have no awareness and no consciousness and our dead bodies lie in the grave awaiting the resurrection.
              Which is precisely what Scripture is teaching all the way from the O.T. times on, you didn't read Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...", therefore we have eternal life in promise, we do not have this now. When we die, we die and the dead know not any thing! There is: "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" Ecc. 9:10

              That's why for example we read of David in Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre (grave) is with us unto this day." So David is still in the grave while Jeremiah writes in 30:9 "But they (Israel) shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them". This is still not happened because the resurrection is still in the future. Paul clearly says this in 2 Tim. 2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some". So the dead know nothing at all and David is still waiting the resurrection.

              So this is all about faith, not only in His Word (Scripture) but also in His Word, that He will resurrect us when Christ returns - or in other words - His second coming.
              "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
              a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
              rightly dividing the word of truth."
              2 Tim. 2:15

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                But that is what your stating, just see what you say:

                Which is precisely what Scripture is teaching all the way from the O.T. times on, you didn't read Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...", therefore we have eternal life in promise, we do not have this now. When we die, we die and the dead know not any thing! There is: "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" Ecc. 9:10

                That's why for example we read of David in Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre (grave) is with us unto this day." So David is still in the grave while Jeremiah writes in 30:9 "But they (Israel) shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them". This is still not happened because the resurrection is still in the future. Paul clearly says this in 2 Tim. 2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some". So the dead know nothing at all and David is still waiting the resurrection.

                So this is all about faith, not only in His Word (Scripture) but also in His Word, that He will resurrect us when Christ returns - or in other words - His second coming.
                I don't know about others, but I know through faith that when my body dies and returns to dust, I will still be alive, because when I live and believe, I have Christ's promise that the life I have through Him is eternal. I am NOT my body, my body houses ME! There is no death of ME, because the life I received the moment I believed is ETERNAL! David's body went into the grave, but since David died in faith HE went to wait for the advent of Christ in that part of the grave called Abraham's Bosom. That place is empty now, because before Christ ascended to heaven He first descended to the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free (Eph 4:8-10). Old Testament men of faith could not go to heaven when they died, because none could go there before Christ went there to prepare a place for us.

                The prophesy from Jer 30:9 is fulfilled through Christ. Zacharias acknowledges that Christ is fulfillment of the prophesy when he, filled with the Holy Ghost, speaks of John the Baptist, saying he was sent to prepare the way for the Messiah, from the house of David, Who has come to redeem His people.

                Ac 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                Ac 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

                Lu 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
                Lu 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
                Lu 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
                Lu 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
                Lu 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
                Lu 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
                Lu 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
                Lu 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
                Lu 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
                Lu 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
                Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
                Lu 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
                Lu 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
                Lu 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

                David, like all who die in faith is now living with Christ in heaven while waiting for his body to be raised and changed to be reunited with his eternal spirit. There are many passages from Scripture that indicate that believers live on in spirit, after our body dies, through the Holy Spirit in us. If it were not true, Paul would not have longed to be rid of his body of death, so he could be with the Lord in heaven. Nor would Paul have told us that when our dead body is sown in the earth, it is raised a spiritual body to reside in heaven.

                Who according to Timothy is teaching that the bodily resurrection was past? Hymenaeus and Philetus, along with Alexander, and they were charged with blaspheme for teaching this lie, which caused some to wander from the faith. Of course the bodily resurrection is NOT past, it will not be until the last day of this age. That does not mean that we do not have eternal life through His Spirit the moment we believe.

                1 Ti1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

                2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
                2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.





                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                  I don't know about others, but I know through faith that when my body dies and returns to dust, I will still be alive, because when I live and believe, I have Christ's promise that the life I have through Him is eternal. I am NOT my body, my body houses ME! There is no death of ME, because the life I received the moment I believed is ETERNAL! David's body went into the grave, but since David died in faith HE went to wait for the advent of Christ in that part of the grave called Abraham's Bosom. That place is empty now, because before Christ ascended to heaven He first descended to the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free (Eph 4:8-10). Old Testament men of faith could not go to heaven when they died, because none could go there before Christ went there to prepare a place for us.
                  Abraham's bosom? You are serious? How can Abraham have a bosom if he has no body? How can the rich man be thirsty if he has no body? How can Lazarus have a finger if he has no body? Did you actually read Luke 16:23? "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom", so he has a body contrary to what you believe. In v. 24 we read "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame", so they have bodies, now what do we read about people who die? Gen. 3:19 "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".

                  [...]

                  David, like all who die in faith is now living with Christ in heaven while waiting for his body to be raised and changed to be reunited with his eternal spirit. There are many passages from Scripture that indicate that believers live on in spirit, after our body dies, through the Holy Spirit in us. If it were not true, Paul would not have longed to be rid of his body of death, so he could be with the Lord in heaven. Nor would Paul have told us that when our dead body is sown in the earth, it is raised a spiritual body to reside in heaven.
                  Why is David waiting in heaven for his "bodily" resurrection? He is already in heaven isn't he? Without a body according to you... So no need for the resurrection because according to you we are all immortal. We can't die, so we do not need God (Christ) do we? This is the danger of believing what you believe my friend.

                  Who according to Timothy is teaching that the bodily resurrection was past? Hymenaeus and Philetus, along with Alexander, and they were charged with blaspheme for teaching this lie, which caused some to wander from the faith. Of course the bodily resurrection is NOT past, it will not be until the last day of this age. That does not mean that we do not have eternal life through His Spirit the moment we believe.
                  We do not have "eternal" life, other then in promise. When we die, we are as dead as a door nail and know nothing at all. But you can believe as you please





                  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                  a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                  rightly dividing the word of truth."
                  2 Tim. 2:15

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's a difficult proposition, how to apply rules on matters like "soul sleep." Certain cult groups place a premium on these questionable doctrines, and letting it go for the sake of legitimate Christian convictions opens the doors for these aberrant groups. I spent 10 years on an unmoderated group, and had little problem. The typical trolls came through, but usually got isolated in their own little clique and were largely ignored. Better conversations continued, free from the tight restraint of rules.

                    I came here largely to get away from the trolls, however, and do appreciate the value of rules. I initially felt a little restrained, but I've adapted. I think it's nice that there is a place where more controversial subjects can be addressed without bothering everybody else.

                    I'm not for "soul sleep," but do understand that it doesn't really attack doctrinal orthodoxy on issues that are more to do with the Christian creeds. These things are highly speculative regardless.

                    I do find that exploring more controversial subjects sometimes upends an illegitimate Christian bastion of supposed conservative doctrines that are not really thought through, but simply parroted from generation to generation. Such dead orthodoxy does need to be examined afresh, to bring truth back to the place of understanding, rather than just rote repetition.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      It's a difficult proposition, how to apply rules on matters like "soul sleep." Certain cult groups place a premium on these questionable doctrines, and letting it go for the sake of legitimate Christian convictions opens the doors for these aberrant groups. I spent 10 years on an unmoderated group, and had little problem. The typical trolls came through, but usually got isolated in their own little clique and were largely ignored. Better conversations continued, free from the tight restraint of rules.

                      I came here largely to get away from the trolls, however, and do appreciate the value of rules. I initially felt a little restrained, but I've adapted. I think it's nice that there is a place where more controversial subjects can be addressed without bothering everybody else.

                      I'm not for "soul sleep," but do understand that it doesn't really attack doctrinal orthodoxy on issues that are more to do with the Christian creeds. These things are highly speculative regardless.

                      I do find that exploring more controversial subjects sometimes upends an illegitimate Christian bastion of supposed conservative doctrines that are not really thought through, but simply parroted from generation to generation. Such dead orthodoxy does need to be examined afresh, to bring truth back to the place of understanding, rather than just rote repetition.
                      Yes. I agree we should not be control-freaks. I think I was probably just tired and irritated with the rudeness and personal remarks being leveled against anyone who disagreed with a poster who joined a few days ago. I was convinced the poster was pushing JW teaching, but it was the constant rudeness and personal attacks (not even leveled against me but against others) that prompted my post.

                      I've also said things like, "Anyone who understands English and reads those verses understands that what you say is not what they mean" (which is sarcasm and unnecessary), but I got irritated when people were told they are stupid, or accusations about not being a Christian or that they belong to a Satanic cove were being thrown at them because they disagree with what I could see is JW teaching. That's what prompted my post here but afterwards I realized it was asking for control-freakiness. Thanks for your post.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                        Abraham's bosom? You are serious? How can Abraham have a bosom if he has no body? How can the rich man be thirsty if he has no body? How can Lazarus have a finger if he has no body? Did you actually read Luke 16:23? "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom", so he has a body contrary to what you believe. In v. 24 we read "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame", so they have bodies, now what do we read about people who die? Gen. 3:19 "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".]
                        Do you deny the truths represented in ALL of Christ's parables, or just this particular one? Christ did say not all would understand, which is why He spoke to His disciples in parables.

                        Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                        Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

                        Parable - a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:—comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

                        from G3846 to throw alongside, i.e. (reflexively) to reach a place, or (figuratively) to liken:—arrive, compare.
                        This particular parable is showing through comparison the difference between believers, who go to heaven, and unbelievers, who end up in hell to await the judgment.


                        Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


                        Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible - Verse 22. Was carried by the angels. The Jews held the opinion that the spirits of the righteous were conveyed by angels to heaven at their death. Our Saviour speaks in accordance with this opinion; and as he expressly affirms the fact, it seems as proper that it should be taken literally, as when it is said the rich man died and was buried. Angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who are heirs of salvation (Heb 1:14), and there is no more improbability in the supposition that they attend departing spirits to heaven, than that they attend them while on earth.

                        Abraham's bosom. This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase therefore denotes intimacy and friendship. Cmt. on Mt 23:6. Cmt. on Joh 13:23. Cmt. on Joh 21:20. The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was therefore the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there. The Jews, moreover, boasted very much of being the friends of Abraham and of being his descendants, Mt 3:9. To be his friend was, in their view, the highest honour and happiness. Our Saviour therefore showed them that this poor and afflicted man might be raised to the highest happiness, while the rich, who prided themselves on their being descended from Abraham, might be cast away and lost for ever.


                        Why is David waiting in heaven for his "bodily" resurrection? He is already in heaven isn't he? Without a body according to you... So no need for the resurrection because according to you we are all immortal. We can't die, so we do not need God (Christ) do we? This is the danger of believing what you believe my friend.
                        Only one is immortal, until our bodies are made immortal and incorruptible at His coming again on the last day. Our spirits are eternal not immortal.

                        Immortal means undecaying, eternal means perpetual, everlasting, never ending. We are promised eternal life when we believe, and immortal life when we are clothed with our new body.

                        Of course David, and all who ascend to heaven when our body dies and returns to dust desire to be whole again!!! Heaven is NOT believers eternal home! The new heavens and new earth are!! Heaven is for spirit beings, the earth for whole humans, that why our body too must be raised and changed. You can't be mortal and corruptible and live on the new earth where there will be no more death, and no more corruption.

                        We do not have "eternal" life, other then in promise. When we die, we are as dead as a door nail and know nothing at all. But you can believe as you please
                        I don't know you, perhaps you don't have eternal life??? As for myself, I cling to the promise of Christ, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Christ made this promise after raising the DEAD body of Lazarus back to life again. Therefore Christ is assuring us that death of our body does not mean the life we have through Him also dies!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          It's a difficult proposition, how to apply rules on matters like "soul sleep." Certain cult groups place a premium on these questionable doctrines, and letting it go for the sake of legitimate Christian convictions opens the doors for these aberrant groups. I spent 10 years on an unmoderated group, and had little problem. The typical trolls came through, but usually got isolated in their own little clique and were largely ignored. Better conversations continued, free from the tight restraint of rules.

                          I came here largely to get away from the trolls, however, and do appreciate the value of rules. I initially felt a little restrained, but I've adapted. I think it's nice that there is a place where more controversial subjects can be addressed without bothering everybody else.

                          I'm not for "soul sleep," but do understand that it doesn't really attack doctrinal orthodoxy on issues that are more to do with the Christian creeds. These things are highly speculative regardless.

                          I do find that exploring more controversial subjects sometimes upends an illegitimate Christian bastion of supposed conservative doctrines that are not really thought through, but simply parroted from generation to generation. Such dead orthodoxy does need to be examined afresh, to bring truth back to the place of understanding, rather than just rote repetition.
                          What exactly is soul sleep? When I see examples in Scripture of souls in heaven, I find everything but sleep! Rev 6 for example has souls of those killed for their faith under the altar crying out for God to avenge their blood. Their not sleeping! Also in Rev 20 there are martyred souls living and reigning with Christ. That doesn't sound like sleeping either.

                          So neither would I condone any doctrine that teaches there is no consciousness of believers souls/spirits in heaven after death.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                            What exactly is soul sleep? When I see examples in Scripture of souls in heaven, I find everything but sleep! Rev 6 for example has souls of those killed for their faith under the altar crying out for God to avenge their blood. Their not sleeping! Also in Rev 20 there are martyred souls living and reigning with Christ. That doesn't sound like sleeping either.

                            So neither would I condone any doctrine that teaches there is no consciousness of believers souls/spirits in heaven after death.
                            LOL. "Soul-sleep" aside, just as well you and I don't moderate these forums, RogerW. You will be control-freaking against everyone who agrees with anything I say, and I will be control-freaking against everyone who agrees with what you say when it comes to Satan being bound or not and whether the millennium is literal or not.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                              Yes. I agree we should not be control-freaks. I think I was probably just tired and irritated with the rudeness and personal remarks being leveled against anyone who disagreed with a poster who joined a few days ago. I was convinced the poster was pushing JW teaching, but it was the constant rudeness and personal attacks (not even leveled against me but against others) that prompted my post.

                              I've also said things like, "Anyone who understands English and reads those verses understands that what you say is not what they mean" (which is sarcasm and unnecessary), but I got irritated when people were told they are stupid, or accusations about not being a Christian or that they belong to a Satanic cove were being thrown at them because they disagree with what I could see is JW teaching. That's what prompted my post here but afterwards I realized it was asking for control-freakiness. Thanks for your post.
                              The mods have a difficult job. You could probably make a good one!

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