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  • #16
    19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:18-20
    Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
    @RogerW

    LOL. "Soul-sleep" aside, just as well you and I don't moderate these forums, RogerW. You will be control-freaking against everyone who agrees with anything I say, and I will be control-freaking against everyone who agrees with what you say when it comes to Satan being bound or not and whether the millennium is literal or not.
    14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
      19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:18-20

      14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2
      I don't believe in .. I don't even know what "soul-sleep" is.

      "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s." Rom 14:8

      "Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord." (2 Cor 5:6-8)

      Whether it's heaven where God's throne is or not, the Lord fills everything in heaven and in the universe, so wherever we will be while we "sleep", we will be with Him, and when we are raised bodily, we will be with Him. It does not matter which island or planet or dimension it is where we go to when we die, as long as we are with the Lord (and as long as we don't go to Washington).

      Comment


      • #18
        Because as He is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17
        Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
        I don't believe in .. I don't even know what "soul-sleep" is.

        "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s." Rom 14:8

        "Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord." (2 Cor 5:6-8)

        Whether it's heaven where God's throne is or not, the Lord fills everything in heaven and in the universe, so wherever we will be while we "sleep", we will be with Him, and when we are raised bodily, we will be with Him. It does not matter which island or planet or dimension it is where we go to when we die, as long as we are with the Lord (and as long as we don't go to Washington).
        Hopes placed in mortals die with them; all the promise of their power comes to nothing. Proverbs 11:6-8

        When they breathe their last, they return to the dust; Psalm 146:4

        As for me, I will be fully satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. Psalm 17:15

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
          Because as He is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17
          Hopes placed in mortals die with them; all the promise of their power comes to nothing. Proverbs 11:6-8

          When they breathe their last, they return to the dust; Psalm 146:4

          As for me, I will be fully satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. Psalm 17:15
          Real Pastor. Feeding the sheep. Thank you Pastor Jake 2020

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

            Real Pastor. Feeding the sheep.
            27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock,
            among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20


            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
              27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock,
              among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20

              If the apostle John was to remain until the second coming of Christ (John 21:22) and he was to be one of the two witnesses since he was told that he must prophesy again "before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." (Rev 10:11), would he maybe by some remote chance be posting at a place called Bible Forums until the time comes for him to prophesy again, do you think?

              Of course I don't "know that" John is still around, nor do I know that he isn't - but I have a strong suspicion he is, and so in a way I'm always on the look-out for him.

              Comment


              • #22
                “For I am the Lord, I do not change [but remain faithful to My covenant with you]; that is why you, O sons of Jacob, have not come to an end." Mal 3:6
                Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
                If the apostle John was to remain until the second coming of Christ (John 21:22) and he was to be one of the two witnesses since he was told that he must prophesy again "before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." (Rev 10:11), would he maybe by some remote chance be posting at a place called Bible Forums until the time comes for him to prophesy again, do you think?

                Of course I don't "know that" John is still around, nor do I know that he isn't - but I have a strong suspicion he is, and so in a way I'm always on the look-out for him.
                'If you will walk in My ways [remain faithful] then I will give you access [to My presence] among these who are standing here.' Zechariah 3:7

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
                  For I am the Lord, I do not change [but remain faithful to My covenant with you]; that is why you, O sons of Jacob, have not come to an end." Mal 3:6

                  'If you will walk in My ways [remain faithful] then I will give you access [to My presence] among these who are standing here.' Zechariah 3:7
                  "Behold, I will send My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And the LORD, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says the LORD of hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap.

                  And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may be offerers of a food offering in righteousness to the LORD. Then the food offering of Judah and Jerusalem shall be pleasing to the LORD, as in the days of old and as in former years.

                  And I will come near you to judgment. And I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those who extort from the hired laborer's wages, and turning away the widow, and the orphan, the alien, and not fearing Me, says the LORD of hosts.

                  For I am the LORD, I change not. Because of this you sons of Jacob are not destroyed."


                  Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the sons, and the heart of the sons to their fathers, that I not come and strike the earth with utter destruction."

                  Yes, Elijah is, I believe, one of the two witnesses - and he is another one I am keeping a look-out for.

                  John 1:21 "And they asked him (John the Baptist), What then? Are you Elijah? And he says, I am not.

                  Are you that prophet? And he answered, No."


                  Mat 17:3 "And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him."

                  Mat 17:1-12 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them,
                  "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things." "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

                  So John the Baptist came before the coming of the Lord, and denied he was Elijah. Who is coming before the coming of the Lord? Elijah.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                    Do you deny the truths represented in ALL of Christ's parables, or just this particular one? Christ did say not all would understand, which is why He spoke to His disciples in parables.

                    Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                    Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

                    Parable - a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:—comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

                    from G3846 to throw alongside, i.e. (reflexively) to reach a place, or (figuratively) to liken:—arrive, compare.
                    This particular parable is showing through comparison the difference between believers, who go to heaven, and unbelievers, who end up in hell to await the judgment.
                    Go to heaven? The believers Christ talks to in Israel are going to heaven? Where did you read that? From the O.T. we know that God promised Israel a kingdom on earth, not in heaven. You are aware that the word "hell" is just a pagan translation of the word "hades" which just means like "sheool" grave? Both believers and unbelievers are waiting in their death (hades) for the resurrection, like Dan. 12:2 tells us so clearly: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". Because the dead know nothing at all.

                    Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
                    And you think that God will put uncircumcised gentiles there? Read Isa. 52:1 "Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean".

                    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible - Verse 22. Was carried by the angels. The Jews held the opinion that the spirits of the righteous were conveyed by angels to heaven at their death. Our Saviour speaks in accordance with this opinion; and as he expressly affirms the fact, it seems as proper that it should be taken literally, as when it is said the rich man died and was buried. Angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who are heirs of salvation (Heb 1:14), and there is no more improbability in the supposition that they attend departing spirits to heaven, than that they attend them while on earth.
                    In Luke Christ is showing them their false religion just see what His last sentence is: "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". You won't find any of Abraham's bosom there my friend, according to Moses and the prophets, when we die that is the end of it, we are solely relying on the resurrection, cause we're dead!

                    Abraham's bosom. This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase therefore denotes intimacy and friendship. Cmt. on Mt 23:6. Cmt. on Joh 13:23. Cmt. on Joh 21:20. The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was therefore the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there. The Jews, moreover, boasted very much of being the friends of Abraham and of being his descendants, Mt 3:9. To be his friend was, in their view, the highest honour and happiness. Our Saviour therefore showed them that this poor and afflicted man might be raised to the highest happiness, while the rich, who prided themselves on their being descended from Abraham, might be cast away and lost for ever.[/I]
                    Not according to Scripture, Abraham himself looked for and believed in the resurrection when God said to him: "...to give thee (Abraham) this land to inherit it", Stephen says in Acts 7:2 - 5 the following:

                    "The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land (Israel), wherein ye now dwell. And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child."

                    These are all earthly promises, not heavenly promises and they are still waiting to be fulfilled and that happens when the Lord comes for the second time in Glory and the resurrection will take place.

                    Only one is immortal, until our bodies are made immortal and incorruptible at His coming again on the last day. Our spirits are eternal not immortal.

                    Immortal means undecaying, eternal means perpetual, everlasting, never ending. We are promised eternal life when we believe, and immortal life when we are clothed with our new body.
                    No this is not true, "eternal" is the translation of either "olam" or "aion" and never means "ever lasting", just study the words. The Lord Jesus says some interesting words in Luke 20:34 - 36 "The children of this world (Greek: aion) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (Greek: aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection." So those who are worthy of the resurrection won't be human at all, but equal unto the angels. Paul talks about this in 1 Cor. 15:40 where he says "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly", and even difference in the glory of the heavenly bodies "...for star from star doth differ in glory", v. 41. In Pro. 30:4 it states "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?...", until now, only Christ. Scripture teaches us that dead is dead and the dead know nothing at all.

                    Of course David, and all who ascend to heaven when our body dies and returns to dust desire to be whole again!!! Heaven is NOT believers eternal home! The new heavens and new earth are!! Heaven is for spirit beings, the earth for whole humans, that why our body too must be raised and changed. You can't be mortal and corruptible and live on the new earth where there will be no more death, and no more corruption.
                    Only that David never ascended to heaven, nor did anybody else, where did you read that? (Pro. 30:4)

                    I don't know you, perhaps you don't have eternal life??? As for myself, I cling to the promise of Christ, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Christ made this promise after raising the DEAD body of Lazarus back to life again. Therefore Christ is assuring us that death of our body does not mean the life we have through Him also dies!
                    What ever I, you or anybody else has, they only have it in promise as a "reward" for their faith, not as a fact, but like I said before you can believe as you please.
                    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                    rightly dividing the word of truth."
                    2 Tim. 2:15

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                      What exactly is soul sleep? When I see examples in Scripture of souls in heaven, I find everything but sleep! Rev 6 for example has souls of those killed for their faith under the altar crying out for God to avenge their blood. Their not sleeping! Also in Rev 20 there are martyred souls living and reigning with Christ. That doesn't sound like sleeping either.

                      So neither would I condone any doctrine that teaches there is no consciousness of believers souls/spirits in heaven after death.
                      We're not really supposed to indulge the topic except in Contro. But FYI, "soul sleep" is the belief that when we die, our bodies die, and our spiritual souls "sleep." The Scriptures talk about a man "sleeping" when he dies. Some take that to be just the physical appearance of "sleeping," whereas some believe that to indicate the soul itself actually sleeps.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by randyk View Post

                        We're not really supposed to indulge the topic except in Contro. But FYI, "soul sleep" is the belief that when we die, our bodies die, and our spiritual souls "sleep." The Scriptures talk about a man "sleeping" when he dies. Some take that to be just the physical appearance of "sleeping," whereas some believe that to indicate the soul itself actually sleeps.
                        It's a good thing we aren't continuing to talk about then, because I don't believe it. You're either dead in the grave in unbelief, knowing nothing but darkness and silence, or after death with Christ in heaven as living soul/spirit. Thanks for the info.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          He will speak peace To His people and to His saints; Psalm 85:8
                          Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                          "Behold, I will send My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And the LORD, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple,
                          even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. ...
                          And in his temple everyone shouts “Glory!”

                          Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name; worship the Lord in the splendor of his holiness.

                          The Lord gives strength to his people; the Lord blesses his people with peace. Psalm 29

                          Praise Him for His surpassing greatness.

                          Let every thing that has neshamah [renewed] spirit praise Him! Psalm 150
                          Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                          Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am sending you Elijah...

                          Yes, Elijah is, I believe, one of the two witnesses - and he is another one I am keeping a look-out for.

                          Mat 17:3 "And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah [ "The Lord is my God" ] talking with Him."
                          9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them,
                          “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” Matt 17

                          The Resurrection
                          26 Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then enter into his glory?”
                          27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, ...

                          36 ...Jesus himself stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!" Luke 24

                          When the word comes to pass, then it will be known... Jeremiah 28:9

                          The just shall live by faith
                          And we are witnesses of these things...All the prophets testify about Him, that everyone who believes in Him is [justified by faith] Acts 10:39-44

                          Paul’s Post-Conversion Life
                          Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses
                          said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                            Go to heaven? The believers Christ talks to in Israel are going to heaven? Where did you read that? From the O.T. we know that God promised Israel a kingdom on earth, not in heaven. You are aware that the word "hell" is just a pagan translation of the word "hades" which just means like "sheool" grave? Both believers and unbelievers are waiting in their death (hades) for the resurrection, like Dan. 12:2 tells us so clearly: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". Because the dead know nothing at all.
                            Dan 12:2 speaks of our body being raised and changed on the last day of this age. We know this because some are raised to shame and contempt, and some to everlasting life.

                            Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                            Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                            Are you familiar with the book of Hebrews? I ask because chapter 11 especially speaks of the OT faithful saints who died waiting for fulfillment of the promise. I'm beginning with the last verses of the chapter because they show us that the OT saints did not receive the promise they looked for. God says the reason they did not receive the promise they looked for "they without us should not be made perfect."

                            Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
                            Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

                            Abraham, if he desired might have had opportunity to return to the promised land. But Abraham had no desire to return, he considered himself in a strange country, and desired the better promise. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God"

                            Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
                            Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
                            Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

                            Abraham, all these others died in faith, considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on this earth. That's why they had no desire to return to the promise land. They weren't looking for fulfilment of the promise on this earth, but something much better. They desired a better country, an heavenly where God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a city. Heavenly Mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and an innumerable company of angels.

                            Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
                            Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
                            Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
                            Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

                            The OT faithful saints looked for Mt Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem, where the Lamb now is with His OT faithful remnant; one hundred forty four thousand from all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7).

                            Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
                            Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
                            Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

                            Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
                            foreheads.


                            The Mt Sion and city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem will come down from heaven after the first heaven and first earth have passed away.

                            Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                            Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
                            Re 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

                            This is the promise Abraham and the OT faithful looked for fulfillment of. And since the cross of Christ and resurrection, Christ went to Abraham's Bosom and set the captives free. They were held in death until Christ descended down and took them with Him to heaven as living spirits/souls. This was the promise they looked for because God preached the Gospel to Abraham. To they longed for the day that Messiah would come and deliver them to their abode in heaven, to be with the Lord forever.

                            Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
                            Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
                            Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

                            And you think that God will put uncircumcised gentiles there? Read Isa. 52:1 "Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean".
                            No, but I know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but we are all one body, one people; i.e. Christians in Him. So there most assuredly is spirit/soul of physically uncircumcised Christians who are NOW in the heavenly new Jerusalem, the city of the living God waiting for this age to end so they and all His people will be clothed with immortality and incorruption to live with Him forever on the new earth.

                            In Luke Christ is showing them their false religion just see what His last sentence is: "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". You won't find any of Abraham's bosom there my friend, according to Moses and the prophets, when we die that is the end of it, we are solely relying on the resurrection, cause we're dead!
                            Yes, a good reason for the parable, to show them and us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven. No one will be found in Abraham's Bosom since Christ went there and set the faithful OT captives free.

                            Not according to Scripture, Abraham himself looked for and believed in the resurrection when God said to him: "...to give thee (Abraham) this land to inherit it", Stephen says in Acts 7:2 - 5 the following:

                            "The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land (Israel), wherein ye now dwell. And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child."

                            These are all earthly promises, not heavenly promises and they are still waiting to be fulfilled and that happens when the Lord comes for the second time in Glory and the resurrection will take place.
                            As I've already shown you Abraham had no desire for land on this earth where he saw himself a stranger, dwelling in a strange place.

                            No this is not true, "eternal" is the translation of either "olam" or "aion" and never means "ever lasting", just study the words. The Lord Jesus says some interesting words in Luke 20:34 - 36 "The children of this world (Greek: aion) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (Greek: aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection."

                            So those who are worthy of the resurrection won't be human at all, but equal unto the angels. Paul talks about this in 1 Cor. 15:40 where he says "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly", and even difference in the glory of the heavenly bodies "...for star from star doth differ in glory", v. 41. In Pro. 30:4 it states "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?...", until now, only Christ. Scripture teaches us that dead is dead and the dead know nothing at all.
                            Eternal - 166 aiṓnios perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

                            John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

                            John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

                            THE DEAD are not the LIVING! In Christ we are no longer numbered among the dead, because the life we have when believe NEVER DIES!

                            Only that David never ascended to heaven, nor did anybody else, where did you read that? (Pro. 30:4)
                            No David's body has not ascended to heaven. However neither is David's soul/spirit in the grave (Abraham's Bosom) since Christ came and redeemed him and all OT faithful saints from the bondage of death.

                            Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
                            Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
                            Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

                            What ever I, you or anybody else has, they only have it in promise as a "reward" for their faith, not as a fact, but like I said before you can believe as you please.
                            I know in Whom I have believed! I have eternal life NOW through Christ and His Spirit in me, and though my body will die, I spirit/soul will NEVER die!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              ... Both believers and unbelievers are waiting in their death (hades) for the resurrection, like Dan. 12:2 tells us so clearly: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". Because the dead know nothing at all.
                              So why would there be a blessing for those who partake of the first resurrection?
                              Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, ... Rev 20:6

                              Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
                              To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. Rev 1

                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              And you think that God will put uncircumcised gentiles there? Read Isa. 52:1 "Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean".
                              Circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit.

                              The Gentiles Bless Zion
                              Arise, shine;
                              For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
                              2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people;
                              But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.
                              3 The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. Isaiah 60
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              In Luke Christ is showing them their false religion just see what His last sentence is: "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". ... according to Moses and the prophets, when we die that is the end of it, we are solely relying on the resurrection, cause we're dead!
                              34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 1 Cor 15

                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              Not according to Scripture, Abraham himself looked for and believed in the resurrection when God said to him: "...to give thee (Abraham) this land to inherit it",
                              12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
                              God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ
                              And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. Hebrews 6:12-20

                              "Before Abraham Was, I AM"
                              56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              Paul talks about this in 1 Cor. 15:40 where he says "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly",
                              42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.1 Corinthians 15
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?...", until now, only Christ. Scripture teaches us that dead is dead and the dead know nothing at all.

                              (Pro. 30:4)
                              But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
                              “When He ascended on high,He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” Ephesians 4
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              What ever I, you or anybody else has, they only have it in promise as a "reward" for their faith, not as a fact, but like I said before you can believe as you please.
                              Since you're not the life-giver, how on earth would you know what anyone else has?

                              10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; ...And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:10-11

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                                Dan 12:2 speaks of our body being raised and changed on the last day of this age. We know this because some are raised to shame and contempt, and some to everlasting life.

                                Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                                Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                                Are you familiar with the book of Hebrews? I ask because chapter 11 especially speaks of the OT faithful saints who died waiting for fulfillment of the promise. I'm beginning with the last verses of the chapter because they show us that the OT saints did not receive the promise they looked for. God says the reason they did not receive the promise they looked for "they without us should not be made perfect."

                                Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
                                Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

                                Abraham, if he desired might have had opportunity to return to the promised land. But Abraham had no desire to return, he considered himself in a strange country, and desired the better promise. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God"

                                Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
                                Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
                                Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

                                Abraham, all these others died in faith, considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on this earth. That's why they had no desire to return to the promise land. They weren't looking for fulfilment of the promise on this earth, but something much better. They desired a better country, an heavenly where God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a city. Heavenly Mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and an innumerable company of angels.

                                Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
                                Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
                                Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
                                Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

                                The OT faithful saints looked for Mt Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem, where the Lamb now is with His OT faithful remnant; one hundred forty four thousand from all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7).

                                Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
                                Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
                                Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

                                Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
                                foreheads.


                                The Mt Sion and city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem will come down from heaven after the first heaven and first earth have passed away.

                                Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                                Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
                                Re 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

                                This is the promise Abraham and the OT faithful looked for fulfillment of. And since the cross of Christ and resurrection, Christ went to Abraham's Bosom and set the captives free. They were held in death until Christ descended down and took them with Him to heaven as living spirits/souls. This was the promise they looked for because God preached the Gospel to Abraham. To they longed for the day that Messiah would come and deliver them to their abode in heaven, to be with the Lord forever.

                                Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
                                Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
                                Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
                                Well here we go again, you are totally blind to the groups the Lord God is preparing and tells us about in Scripture. So I will tell you this again:

                                1. Israel on earth (Child of God)
                                2. Some Jews and some Gentiles combined in the Church of God (Son of God).

                                When is one a child of God? When one is regenerated, this says John 1:12 source text: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe in his name". And 1 John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God....".

                                We know from Paul for example that the Jew is always first, just see Rom. 1:16 "... to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." The reason is to make Israel Jealous Rom. 11:11 "I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy".

                                When is one a son of God? When one has become a new creature as 2 Cor. 5:17 says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new". That's why Paul went abroad and the 12 stayed in Israel just as Gal. 2:7 says "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter". This didn't just happened automatically, it required faith like Gal. 5:6 says "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love". Gal. 4:5 says "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive sonship (huiothesia)" Two clear groups that nobody seem to be willing to see.

                                No, but I know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but we are all one body, one people; i.e. Christians in Him. So there most assuredly is spirit/soul of physically uncircumcised Christians who are NOW in the heavenly new Jerusalem, the city of the living God waiting for this age to end so they and all His people will be clothed with immortality and incorruption to live with Him forever on the new earth.
                                Exactly, those who are in Christ! They are not in the heavenly Jerusalem my friend, Christ says in John 14:2, 3 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also". Has Christ come again already? No sir, this is still in the future, so now nobody is anywhere right now but either alive in the flesh - like you and me - or dead in the hades (grave), knowing nothing at all.

                                Yes, a good reason for the parable, to show them and us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven. No one will be found in Abraham's Bosom since Christ went there and set the faithful OT captives free.
                                The parables were told to Jews, not to uncircumcised gentiles you are aware of that don't you? Applying them on just any believer is a recipe for chaos. Just for the record, Jesus was a circumcised Jew, who came to the Jews. He said to them in Mat. 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not". It was not until Acts 10 Peter converted Cornelius, but this was only after a three times repeated command and then Peter still doubted in himself. Acts 10 is about the big difference between Jews and gentiles, just see v. 28 "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean". Paul was at this time only preaching to the Jews, not until Acts 13 he goes to the nations, but even then it was "...to the Jew first, and also to the Greek".

                                As I've already shown you Abraham had no desire for land on this earth where he saw himself a stranger, dwelling in a strange place.
                                On what do you base that Abraham had no desire for the land the Lord promised to him? That is like saying, you have no desire for the resurrection, another promise of God.

                                Eternal - 166 aiṓnios perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

                                John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

                                John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

                                THE DEAD are not the LIVING! In Christ we are no longer numbered among the dead, because the life we have when believe NEVER DIES!
                                On what do you base your idea this is now? Like I told you and showed you from Scripture the dead know nothing at all! Yet you say the dead live without a body somewhere in heaven? How can that be? You are aware the soul dies?

                                Man consists of three "natures", of spirit, soul, and body. 1 Thess. 5:23, Heb. 4:12. The soul, in general, keeps the middle between the other two. It is the product of that. If the spirit withdraws completely, the soul dies and the body disintegrates. If the body is mutilated too much, it can no longer be the bearer of the spirit, then the spirit also withdraws and the soul dies likewise.
                                Neither the body nor the soul nor the spirit can exist in itself as an independent being. They are only fixed in the self. And it is this "ego" that God, in a way unknown to us, saves after death. The place where these "egos" are, is clearly indicated by Scripture: in the sea, in the hades (the great common grave) in death (in places other than those mentioned in Rev. 20:13, e.g. on mountains, on earth etc.). Christ speaks of those who are in the graves, John 5:28. This word alone had to be sufficient to teach us that the dead rest in the dust of the earth (in general, exceptions are drowned, burned, etc.). The soul does not live on, we never got a soul from God, but are a soul. Soul and body are often identified as the same but they are not.

                                No David's body has not ascended to heaven. However neither is David's soul/spirit in the grave (Abraham's Bosom) since Christ came and redeemed him and all OT faithful saints from the bondage of death.

                                Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
                                Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
                                Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

                                I know in Whom I have believed! I have eternal life NOW through Christ and His Spirit in me, and though my body will die, I spirit/soul will NEVER die!
                                No, Christ promised them to redeem them from death (Hos. 13:14) when He returns like Martha says in John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day", that last day is the last day of this aion, when Christ returns. Lastly I'll quote Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?", that "thee" is God. But you can believe whatever you want my friend.
                                "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                                a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                                rightly dividing the word of truth."
                                2 Tim. 2:15

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