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  • Discussion Faith, Hope, and Love

    1 Corinthians 13:13
    But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    Let this verse be a springboard for our discussion. One can imagine that when the Lord returns, that love will remain, but faith and hope? Will we need faith and hope in the coming age? Paul seems to think it will. Faith, hope and love abide. Right?

    Let me run this past you to see what you all think.

    James teaches us to think of "works" (as he defines them) as evidence of our faith. "But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works'; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18) Given this perspective, one might say that faith has two components, a subjective component and an objective component. Faith is something internal and personal to each of us, which is subjective; But faith is also observable as James points out. He will show you (objective) that he has faith (subjective) through is behavior. If you follow James around for a week, you will see him do things and make decisions, which are consistent with someone of faith.

    The same is true of the other two. Someone may well say, "you have hope and I have works; show me your hope without the works, and I will show you my hope by my works." Someone may well say, "you have love and I have works; show me your love without the works, and I will show you my love by my works." Hope and Love also have a subjective and an objective component.

    When we say that Faith, Hope, and Love, have a subjective component, we are not talking about personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. We are talking about deep commitments to truth, love for God, and trust in his promises. We hold these things deep in our hearts, souls, minds and as such, they are internal and individually (personally) significant to us. Nonetheless, a commitment to love is empty without acts of love; a commitment to hope is empty without acts of hope; and a commitment to faith is empty without acts of faith. Perhaps, this above all, is what endures and lasts into eternity.

    Comments?

  • #2
    Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    1 Corinthians 13:13
    But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    Let this verse be a springboard for our discussion. One can imagine that when the Lord returns, that love will remain, but faith and hope? Will we need faith and hope in the coming age? Paul seems to think it will. Faith, hope and love abide. Right?

    Let me run this past you to see what you all think.

    James teaches us to think of "works" (as he defines them) as evidence of our faith. "But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works'; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18) Given this perspective, one might say that faith has two components, a subjective component and an objective component. Faith is something internal and personal to each of us, which is subjective; But faith is also observable as James points out. He will show you (objective) that he has faith (subjective) through is behavior. If you follow James around for a week, you will see him do things and make decisions, which are consistent with someone of faith.

    The same is true of the other two. Someone may well say, "you have hope and I have works; show me your hope without the works, and I will show you my hope by my works." Someone may well say, "you have love and I have works; show me your love without the works, and I will show you my love by my works." Hope and Love also have a subjective and an objective component.

    When we say that Faith, Hope, and Love, have a subjective component, we are not talking about personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. We are talking about deep commitments to truth, love for God, and trust in his promises. We hold these things deep in our hearts, souls, minds and as such, they are internal and individually (personally) significant to us. Nonetheless, a commitment to love is empty without acts of love; a commitment to hope is empty without acts of hope; and a commitment to faith is empty without acts of faith. Perhaps, this above all, is what endures and lasts into eternity.

    Comments?
    I would absolutely agree that there is always the component of "works" in our expression of faith, hope, and love. And certainly this is part of our participation in an eternal expression of these things.

    Faith will exist forever for the very reason you cited, that we will subjectively experience it forever. For this to happen the object of our faith must be eternally present, as well, which is our God.

    This is also true of hope. Hope is presently defined as something we have yet to see realized, namely the fulfillment of God's promises regarding the new creation. When it is here, that reality is what we call our "hope." And so, that "hope" will continue forever, just as the reality of our realized eschatology will be forever. It isn't as if we go on hoping for this after it has come to pass. Rather, the hope that is realized is the hope that will be forever.

    Finally, love is also forever for just the reason you described. We experience it forever because both we and our God, the source of our love, will be forever. And we will not only experience it, but we will also *do it* with "works."

    These, obviously, are not "works" as expressed by Paul in connection with an effort to be justified, or to earn salvation. Rather, these are eternal works such as God originally planned for men to do, before the Fall, which is to express God on earth in many varied ways, expressing the image and likeness of God. We are to express Him as He is and as we are, created in His image, to express His love eternally.

    Thanks for a lovely subject! You may hear little disagreement on this!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by randyk View Post

      I would absolutely agree that there is always the component of "works" in our expression of faith, hope, and love. And certainly this is part of our participation in an eternal expression of these things.

      Faith will exist forever for the very reason you cited, that we will subjectively experience it forever. For this to happen the object of our faith must be eternally present, as well, which is our God.

      This is also true of hope. Hope is presently defined as something we have yet to see realized, namely the fulfillment of God's promises regarding the new creation. When it is here, that reality is what we call our "hope." And so, that "hope" will continue forever, just as the reality of our realized eschatology will be forever. It isn't as if we go on hoping for this after it has come to pass. Rather, the hope that is realized is the hope that will be forever.

      Finally, love is also forever for just the reason you described. We experience it forever because both we and our God, the source of our love, will be forever. And we will not only experience it, but we will also *do it* with "works."

      These, obviously, are not "works" as expressed by Paul in connection with an effort to be justified, or to earn salvation. Rather, these are eternal works such as God originally planned for men to do, before the Fall, which is to express God on earth in many varied ways, expressing the image and likeness of God. We are to express Him as He is and as we are, created in His image, to express His love eternally.

      Thanks for a lovely subject! You may hear little disagreement on this!
      After reading your thoughtful post, I continued to mediate on this subject, especially in light of current circumstances. I wonder if fear is the opposite of hope to the degree that fear causes inactivity? I find that whenever I allow fear to enter into my thoughts, I hesitate and sometimes avoid activity. Yes? Hope seems to break the ice, so to speak.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

        After reading your thoughtful post, I continued to mediate on this subject, especially in light of current circumstances. I wonder if fear is the opposite of hope to the degree that fear causes inactivity? I find that whenever I allow fear to enter into my thoughts, I hesitate and sometimes avoid activity. Yes? Hope seems to break the ice, so to speak.
        Interesting thought! Yes, fear would tend to constrain activity, would it not? If you think there's a bear out in the woods, you're not going to go out hunting, or gathering, or building, etc. Fear paralyzes us because it tends to eclipse the vision God gives us through His word.

        We're afraid to drive because the traffic is heavy, and we could get into an accident. We're afraid to marry because it could end in divorce. If we have issues with reading or learning we might be afraid to persist and prevail in ways we otherwise wouldn't know except for fear.

        Yea, fear can even dim our vision of hope. We may doubt we even belong there, or may fail to see the connection between our future hope and the work we are doing right now, in witnessing to the world with our love and charity.

        The coronavirus is more a matter of practical separation, rather than fear. But yes, we can be troubled by fear, as well, and be so paralyzed that we shut off all communication and commerce. We just have to exercise wisdom, and trust the rest to God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by randyk View Post

          Interesting thought! Yes, fear would tend to constrain activity, would it not? If you think there's a bear out in the woods, you're not going to go out hunting, or gathering, or building, etc. Fear paralyzes us because it tends to eclipse the vision God gives us through His word.

          We're afraid to drive because the traffic is heavy, and we could get into an accident. We're afraid to marry because it could end in divorce. If we have issues with reading or learning we might be afraid to persist and prevail in ways we otherwise wouldn't know except for fear.

          Yea, fear can even dim our vision of hope. We may doubt we even belong there, or may fail to see the connection between our future hope and the work we are doing right now, in witnessing to the world with our love and charity.

          The coronavirus is more a matter of practical separation, rather than fear. But yes, we can be troubled by fear, as well, and be so paralyzed that we shut off all communication and commerce. We just have to exercise wisdom, and trust the rest to God.
          Would you say that knowledge can cast out fear? Don't we typically fear the unknown? Aren't kids afraid of the dark, and isn't the fear removed after mom or dad turns on the light? Doesn't the Bible say that we perish for lack of vision? Ever noticed how many times "knowledge" (and other associated words) are used in the New Testament?

          Perhaps knowledge is tempered by Love?

          Just random thoughts.

          Comment


          • #6
            1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

            Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

            Those with true faith have love and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6) If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) I understand Paul to be using hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13 to stress the importance of love.

            1 John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

            After we have been saved through faith, love certainly is the greatest quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary in the presence of the Lord, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.
            Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
              1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

              Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

              Those with true faith have love and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6) If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) I understand Paul to be using hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13 to stress the importance of love.

              1 John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

              After we have been saved through faith, love certainly is the greatest quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary in the presence of the Lord, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.
              Why do you suppose that Paul said "faith, hope and love abide?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                Why do you suppose that Paul said "faith, hope and love abide?"
                In contrast with prophecy that will be done away and tongues that will cease and knowledge that will be done away (1 Corinthians 13:8) faith, hope and love abide or remain. (1 Corinthians 13:13) Now some may argue that faith in Christ will not cease in the eternal state "in regards to trusting Jesus" after our faith has become sight, yet the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen. (Hebrews 11:1) In regards to hope, once we are in the presence of the Lord, we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13) For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Romans 8:24)

                Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                  In contrast with prophecy that will be done away and tongues that will cease and knowledge that will be done away (1 Corinthians 13:8) faith, hope and love abide or remain. (1 Corinthians 13:13) Now some may argue that faith in Christ will not cease in the eternal state "in regards to trusting Jesus" after our faith has become sight, yet the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen. (Hebrews 11:1) In regards to hope, once we are in the presence of the Lord, we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13) For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Romans 8:24)
                  I wonder what eternity will be like. Do you suppose that we might be given additional promises to anticipate, which will allow us to exercise our hope and faith?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                    I wonder what eternity will be like. Do you suppose that we might be given additional promises to anticipate, which will allow us to exercise our hope and faith?
                    That is a very good question. Even though we will no longer need faith in what is unseen (because now we see it) our trust and reliance in Jesus Christ I believe will continue. Also, even though we will no longer be seeking the blessed hope of Jesus Christ appearing (because he has appeared and we will be with Him forever) there may very well be additional promises to anticipate that will allow us to exercise our hope and faith in eternity. You have brought up some really good points that have helped give me a fresh perspective on the glorious wonders of eternity with the Lord. This is a great topic!
                    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                      That is a very good question. Even though we will no longer need faith in what is unseen (because now we see it) our trust and reliance in Jesus Christ I believe will continue. Also, even though we will no longer be seeking the blessed hope of Jesus Christ appearing (because he has appeared and we will be with Him forever) there may very well be additional promises to anticipate that will allow us to exercise our hope and faith in eternity. You have brought up some really good points that have helped give me a fresh perspective on the glorious wonders of eternity with the Lord. This is a great topic!
                      Glad I could help, though, I always learn something myself too. Thanks for the discussion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Faith is the substance (material) and evidence (deed of purchase) of things of the unseen inheritance (eternal life) prepared as the hope of God/Christ.

                        Putting it in another way, the faith of God is not a person's strong believe in God, but the substance and deed of purchase of a prepared form of eternal life called the hope of God.

                        Faith is the seed of God given to abide in the natural body of a man. It is sealed in that natural body by a process called "hearing".

                        1 Timothy 6:12 KJV declares: "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

                        There is nothing subjective about faith.:On the left hand, faith has righteousness, good report and fruit as components. On the right hand, It has the word, strength and increase as components..Note, carefully, that all things of faith are not made from the unseen inheritance (eternal life) that does appear, but of the unseen inheritance (hope) that is "heard" in the natural man.

                        Healing is the result of exercising any component of the gift of faith. Combined, the result from exercising two or all components of faith is called gifts of healing. You know that you have the faith of God/Christ by healing that automatically comes as a result of your gift of the faith of God.
                        Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                          Would you say that knowledge can cast out fear? Don't we typically fear the unknown? Aren't kids afraid of the dark, and isn't the fear removed after mom or dad turns on the light? Doesn't the Bible say that we perish for lack of vision? Ever noticed how many times "knowledge" (and other associated words) are used in the New Testament?

                          Perhaps knowledge is tempered by Love?

                          Just random thoughts.
                          We know the common verse, "love casts our fear." Certainly, if the knowledge we have is of the love of God, we may cast out fear! But if it is just a typical line, or some kind of truism, that affords us common sense, and doesn't really deal with our inward paranoia, then this "knowledge" is just a bunch of words.

                          I could tell my wife to stop biting her fingernails all day long, and it won't make a difference. I may warn her of coronavirus, and she is big on health. But she has to wear gloves not to bite her fingernails. She worries. Some things you can just turn off, because you know you're doing the wrong thing, and you can. But some things are so ingrained into us, that it takes a major overhaul in our mind--some kind of trauma--to change us.

                          Knowledge is helpful, but something has to be added to it. We have to have respect for individuals, who have their own interests, their own weaknesses, and their own guidance. We have to serve them, and not dictate to them, or try to manipulate them into doing the right things. Some fears we can help them get rid of. Other things require a regular serving of love and understanding. I'm rambling too.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randyk View Post

                            We know the common verse, "love casts our fear." Certainly, if the knowledge we have is of the love of God, we may cast out fear! But if it is just a typical line, or some kind of truism, that affords us common sense, and doesn't really deal with our inward paranoia, then this "knowledge" is just a bunch of words.

                            I could tell my wife to stop biting her fingernails all day long, and it won't make a difference. I may warn her of coronavirus, and she is big on health. But she has to wear gloves not to bite her fingernails. She worries. Some things you can just turn off, because you know you're doing the wrong thing, and you can. But some things are so ingrained into us, that it takes a major overhaul in our mind--some kind of trauma--to change us.

                            Knowledge is helpful, but something has to be added to it. We have to have respect for individuals, who have their own interests, their own weaknesses, and their own guidance. We have to serve them, and not dictate to them, or try to manipulate them into doing the right things. Some fears we can help them get rid of. Other things require a regular serving of love and understanding. I'm rambling too.
                            With regard to biting the fingernails, sometimes repressed subconscious thoughts manifest physically. It's as if a person's mind is trying deal with some unpleasant idea that is being ignored, most likely because it is painful to remember. I could be wrong, but I suspect that she bites her nails when something in her environment or experience threatens to bring the idea to the surface. There are ways to kick the habit, so to speak, but this will simply manifest in other ways. Her best bet is to keep a diary of a sort, documenting what is happening just before biting and how she is feeling at the moment. Don't try to stop biting. Simply observe and record. That's it. Tell her to keep it secret and private. Eventually, when she is ready, she will see the pattern and realize what is bothering her. When she is able to deal with the emotions associated with the behavior, the behavior will stop on its own.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                              With regard to biting the fingernails, sometimes repressed subconscious thoughts manifest physically. It's as if a person's mind is trying deal with some unpleasant idea that is being ignored, most likely because it is painful to remember. I could be wrong, but I suspect that she bites her nails when something in her environment or experience threatens to bring the idea to the surface. There are ways to kick the habit, so to speak, but this will simply manifest in other ways. Her best bet is to keep a diary of a sort, documenting what is happening just before biting and how she is feeling at the moment. Don't try to stop biting. Simply observe and record. That's it. Tell her to keep it secret and private. Eventually, when she is ready, she will see the pattern and realize what is bothering her. When she is able to deal with the emotions associated with the behavior, the behavior will stop on its own.
                              You're absolutely right. We already know what prompts the nail-biting--it's perennial worry. She worries about everything---can't stop it. She does have Christ in her heart, and lives by it. Some things just don't go away. We overcome it, but the tendencies are still there. It isn't a sin.

                              Comment

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