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  • #31
    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Just as an aside, the Jewish believers use the term Messianic (Messiah) instead of Christian (Christ) because of the atrocities done to them in the name of Christ. Messiah and Christ are the same word just from two different languages (Hebrew and Greek respectively). So Messianic and Christian mean the same thing, but to a Jew Christian represents oppressor, murderer, etc.
    Yes, I agree and thanks for shedding a different light on the subject. It is true that while Gentile Christians are used to the name, Jesus Christ from which we derive the word "Christain", Jews traditionally refer to Christ as Messiah. It, therefore, makes sense that those of them who have accepted Christ as their expected Messiah would naturally refer to him as Messiah, hence Messianic Jews/believers.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      I hear you. But you make more of my comments than was said. They can be inflamed by a point of view or loyalties. Why so sensitive? You picked on a sentence or two and never addressed the arguments. So what I'll do is rest my case on two simple things:
      1. Why do they need an "identity status" - as you admit
      2. Why is the new Testament replete with stern warnings about those who have turned to Christ but still hold to their past?
      Let me not say anything to such sensitive people. Let the Lord speak.
      • In Acts 10 Peter, chiefest of the twelve Apostles, and trained by the Lord for 3 years, day and night, refuses to overthrow the Law, citing Gentiles believers as unclean
      • In Acts 11, the CHURCH at Jerusalem have "no small contention" with Peter for going to the Gentile chosen by God
      • In Acts 15 Paul must travel to the CHURCH at Jerusalem to stop the Law being enforced on Gentile Believers
      • In Acts 21 the CHURCH at Jerusalem was "zealous for the Law"
      • Galatians is written entirely to condemn "Jewish Christians" teaching that we must be perfected by the Law
      • Galatians shows Peter, chiefest of the twelve, deserting his Christian brethren in favor of Jews
      • Galatians wishes such men as "cut off"
      • Philippians associates the circumcision with "dogs"
      • 2nd Peter says that men who have been saved and return to the old are like a dog turning to its vomit
      And you know that I could have brought much more. But please deal with the matter with the One Who said these things - not me.
      My apologies if I came across as too sensitive. I just wanted to correct what I felt was an undeserved negative point of view about Jewish Christians, aka Messianic Jews.

      Now, all the passages you quoted above paints the picture of the 1st-century church. After the Pentecost, the Jewish leaders of the church struggled to walk the fine line between the requirements of the Law and the church. They faced many questions that the Gospel at the time didn't provide answers for. For example, does being a Christian mean they stop being Jews? Does being Christian mean they suddenly stop to be Jews, etc?

      Being Jewish means a lot of things; it is an identity as well as the everyday dictates of their life called 'tradition'. It is also a religion which is Judaism. But now that they have turned back on Judaism, how do they deal with the rest of the customs they have known all their lives? To further understand their confusion and struggles to discern which elements of tradition to inculcate into their new religion and which to reject, even Paul with his knowledge was equally caught in this conundrum.

      In Acts 21:23-26 Paul bows to pressure and aligns himself with four men that had made a vow and went on to purify himself which was to be followed by an offering in the temple, vide:

      Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

      Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

      The above instruction to Paul was from none other than the leaders of the church headed by James. Paul conceded and purified himself, an act that is inherently Judaic and unbecoming of a Christian. Were Paul and the rest of the church leadership condemned for such poor judgment? I think not because Jesus realised that they were still taking baby steps to create an accepted dogma and tenets for the church.

      The above was over 2000 years ago, so let's fast forward to the present day Jewish believers who identify themselves as "Messianic Jews".
      • Do they integrate the precepts of the Law with their Christan worship? NO!
      • Do they rely on the Torah or the Talmud for their services? NO.
      • Do they embrace purification as required by the Law? NO.
      • Do they call upon Jesus Christ (Messiah) or the OT Hebrew names for God? They are no different from us Gentiles Christians in using every valid name for God.
      I am not asking you to just take my words for it. That's why I've asked you to attend one of their churches and find out for yourself. Doug Brent in post #29 provided what is perhaps, the best explanation to understand why they call themselves Messianic Jews and I agree with him. Traditionally, the Hebrew name for Jesus is "Messiah", Jesus Christ is the Greek name. Hence modern Jews in this age that have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, consistent with the Jewish view, call him Messiah, hence Messianic Jews or Messianic Believers. There is no conflict between (unless we want to create one) the Jewish preference to Messiah and the Gentile believer that uses his Greek name of Jesus Christ from where Christian is derived.

      So without stretching this into a big issue or argument, kindly understand that Messianic Jews do not as you arbitrarily claimed, see themselves as different or special. The name 'Messianic' is merely the Jewish version/interpretation of our Lord's name. I hope this clarifies the matter?
      Last edited by Trivalee; Apr 24th 2020, 05:14 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

        My apologies if I came across as too sensitive. I just wanted to correct what I felt was an undeserved negative point of view about Jewish Christians, aka Messianic Jews.

        Now, all the passages you quoted above paints the picture of the 1st-century church. After the Pentecost, the Jewish leaders of the church struggled to walk the fine line between the requirements of the Law and the church. They faced many questions that the Gospel at the time didn't provide answers for. For example, does being a Christian mean they stop being Jews? Does being Christian mean they suddenly stop to be Jews, etc?

        Being Jewish means a lot of things; it is an identity as well as the everyday dictates of their life called 'tradition'. It is also a religion which is Judaism. But now that they have turned back on Judaism, how do they deal with the rest of the customs they have known all their lives? To further understand their confusion and struggles to discern which elements of tradition to inculcate into their new religion and which to reject, even Paul with his knowledge was equally caught in this conundrum.

        In Acts 21:23-26 Paul bows to pressure and aligns himself with four men that had made a vow and went on to purify himself which was to be followed by an offering in the temple, vide:

        Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

        Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

        The above instruction to Paul was from none other than the leaders of the church headed by James. Paul conceded and purified himself, an act that is inherently Judaic and becoming of a Christian. Were Paul and the rest of the church leadership condemned for such poor judgment? I think not because Jesus realised that they were still taking baby steps to create an accepted dogma and tenets for the church.

        The above was over 2000 years ago, so let's fast forward to the present day Jewish believers who identify themselves as "Messianic Jews".
        • Do they integrate the precepts of the Law with their Christan worship? NO!
        • Do they rely on the Torah or the Talmud for their services? NO.
        • Do they embrace purification as required by the Law? NO.
        • Do they call upon Jesus Christ (Messiah) or the OT Hebrew names for God? They are no different to us, Gentiles Christians in calling every valid name of God.
        I am not asking you to just take my words for it. That's why I've asked you to attend one of their churches and find out for yourself. Doug Brent in post #29 provided what is perhaps, the best explanation to understand why they call themselves Messianic Jews and I agree with him. Traditionally, the Hebrew name for Jesus is "Messiah", Jesus Christ is the Greek name. Hence modern Jews in this age that have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, consistent with the Jewish view, call him Messiah, hence Messianic Jews or Messianic Believers. There is no conflict between (unless we want to create one) the Jewish preference to Messiah and the Gentile believer that uses his Greek name of Jesus Christ from where Christian is derived.

        So without stretching this into a big issue or argument, kindly understand that Messianic Jews do not as you arbitrarily claimed, see themselves as different or special. The name 'Messianic' is merely the Jewish version/interpretation of our Lord's name. I hope this clarifies the matter?
        Thank you for your answer. I have read it all and noted it. Go well bro.

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