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  • Jesus said "It is finished"

    In (jn 19:30) Jesus uttered the words "It is finished".

    I am continually hearing people claim this means Jesus done everything for them regarding salvation.

    They first use that argument but then in the same discussion they will eventually say one must believe to be saved.

    At this point I am thinking well, I thought you said Jesus done it all upon the cross.

    Why do you need to believe?

    Then during the same conversation they will say one must say a prayer to be saved.

    It seems they talk themselves out of the faith alone / grace alone position in only one discussion.

    Whats up with that?
    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

  • #2
    That is because they don't read their Bible. They come up with man made ideas about how they think God meant to do things and don't pay attention to how He actually said things are.

    For instance, the only place where "faith alone" or "faith only" appears in all of Scripture is in James 2, and here it says, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." This passage alone puts the lie to the "faith only" crowd.

    And nowhere in all of Scripture is there mention of a prayer to God to ask Him into your heart. There is no mention in any conversion story in all of Scripture where someone is told to pray and God will enter your heart. But there is frequent instruction to be immersed to receive forgiveness of sins. There is frequent mention of repentance leading to salvation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Typical arguments made by works-salvationists. The Bible clearly states in many passages of Scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

      You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE, which is NOT to be confused with what James refers to as "faith only" in James 2:24, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) James is NOT teaching salvation by faith and works.

      BTW repentance (change of mind) precedes saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21)
      Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
        Typical arguments made by works-salvationists. The Bible clearly states in many passages of Scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

        You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE, which is NOT to be confused with what James refers to as "faith only" in James 2:24, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) James is NOT teaching salvation by faith and works.

        BTW repentance (change of mind) precedes saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21)
        Are you intentionally misreading James 2:24? It very clearly says, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." What does it mean to be justified? It means, "declared or made righteous in the sight of God." And what does James, the half brother of Jesus say causes us to be declared righteous in the sight of God? WORKS, not faith only!

        Comment


        • #5

          27 Things We Are Saved By…


          Things to Which Salvation Is Ascribed

          Christ’s words (John 6:63).
          The Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Titus 3:5).
          Faith (Romans 10:10).
          Repentance (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9).
          Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus 3:5).
          God (John 3:16; Titus 2:11).
          Christ’s works (John 20:30–31).
          Calling on His name (Acts 2:21).
          Christ’s name (Acts 4:12).
          Christ’s resurrection (Romans 4:25).
          Christ’s death (Romans 5:6).
          Hope (Romans 8:24).
          Confession of faith (Romans 10:10).
          Hearing (Romans 10:15–17).
          Preaching (1 Corinthians 1:18).
          Fire (1 Corinthians 3:15).
          The gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1–2).
          Love (Galatians 5:6).
          Grace (Ephesians 2:8).
          Ourselves (Philippians 2:12).
          The love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
          Christ (1 Timothy 1:15).
          Heeding and continuing in the doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16).
          God’s mercy (Titus 3:5).
          Obedience (Hebrews 5:9).
          Christ’s blood (Hebrews 9:14).
          Works of faith (James 2:24).

          The question is not, which one of these will save; all combined insure us of salvation.


          https://housetohouse.com/we-are-saved-by/
          22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

            Are you intentionally misreading James 2:24? It very clearly says, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." What does it mean to be justified? It means, "declared or made righteous in the sight of God." And what does James, the half brother of Jesus say causes us to be declared righteous in the sight of God? WORKS, not faith only!

            * Notice (Rom.6:16-19=8).

            Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


            1. ...ye were the servants of sin,

            2. ...but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

            3. ...BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN.

            4. ...ye became the servants of righteousness.


            Notice OBEDIENCE came BEFORE one is freed from sin.

            One obeys the gospel BEFORE they become the servants of righteousness.

            We see that which the above scriptures are describing earlier in this same chapter (Rom.6:3-6).


            3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

            (Gal.3:27) (1Peter 3:20,21) (1Peter 1:22,23) (Mark 16:15,16)
            22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

              Are you intentionally misreading James 2:24? It very clearly says, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." What does it mean to be justified? It means, "declared or made righteous in the sight of God." And what does James, the half brother of Jesus say causes us to be declared righteous in the sight of God? WORKS, not faith only!
              Are you intentionally misreading James 2:24 out of context? You also need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

              James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

              In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

              1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
              2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
              3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

              In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

              God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

              Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

              Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

              Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                Are you intentionally misreading James 2:24 out of context? You also need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

                James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

                In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

                1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
                2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
                3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

                In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

                God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

                Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

                Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
                You make my point for me. Faith must precede salvation, I think we both agree on that. But faith is nothing without works. It is dead, and therefore does not count for anything, if it has no works. As you say in your first paragraph, genuine faith is not just the "bare profession" but having actions along with it. Inactive faith (which is not really faith at all) cannot save you. But active faith does.

                I was driving this morning and I heard a commercial that made me realize something. I have been saying things in a way that maybe you are getting the wrong impression. Someone here made the statement that nothing we do can "add to the finished work of Christ" in terms of our salvation. That is true. But what I realized this morning was that repentance, confession of Jesus' Name, and immersion don't add to that work (which I have said all along), they qualify us to receive that finished work.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                  You make my point for me. Faith must precede salvation, I think we both agree on that.
                  Faith precedes salvation and we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

                  But faith is nothing without works. It is dead, and therefore does not count for anything, if it has no works.
                  Now "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrates that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

                  As you say in your first paragraph, genuine faith is not just the "bare profession" but having actions along with it. Inactive faith (which is not really faith at all) cannot save you. But active faith does.
                  I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that this empty profession of faith/dead faith that James is talking about is not really faith at all. Actions demonstrate that faith is alive, but we are still saved through faith in Christ and not based on the merit of actions that faith produces. Faith that saves is apart from the merit of works, but not apart from the presence of works.

                  I was driving this morning and I heard a commercial that made me realize something. I have been saying things in a way that maybe you are getting the wrong impression. Someone here made the statement that nothing we do can "add to the finished work of Christ" in terms of our salvation. That is true. But what I realized this morning was that repentance, confession of Jesus' Name, and immersion don't add to that work (which I have said all along), they qualify us to receive that finished work.
                  By the time that you place repentance "after" faith and confession and water baptism into "additional requirements" that we must accomplish "after" faith in order to be saved, then you are adding to the finished work of Christ and don't even seem to realize it. Now faith is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. Confession is also not a work that merits salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) So how can confession be made unto salvation (Romans 10:10) when your gospel plan requires one more step "after" that (water baptism) in order to be saved?

                  Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Water baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15; Titus 3:5) which follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47) and if it's absolutely necessary for salvation, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of being water baptized." You can't have it both ways.

                  Here is the problem with your 4-5 step plan of salvation. You make it sound like Jesus is sitting in heaven with a check list in His hand. Faith, check (but still lost) repent, check (but still lost) confess, check (but still lost) water baptized, check (finally saved) which contradicts multiple passages of scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..) which is implied in repentance, since they are the same coin with two sides. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21) Your "salvation by water and works" gospel plan is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. You seem to place repentance "after" faith and basically define it as moral self-reformation. You also basically seem to define faith as "mental assent belief conjoined with works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

                  Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nova2216 View Post

                    * Notice (Rom.6:16-19=8).

                    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

                    1. ...ye were the servants of sin,

                    2. ...but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

                    3. ...BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN.

                    4. ...ye became the servants of righteousness.

                    Notice OBEDIENCE came BEFORE one is freed from sin.

                    One obeys the gospel BEFORE they become the servants of righteousness.

                    We see that which the above scriptures are describing earlier in this same chapter (Rom.6:3-6).

                    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

                    (Gal.3:27) (1Peter 3:20,21) (1Peter 1:22,23) (Mark 16:15,16)
                    See post #29. - https://bibleforums.org/forum/christ...alvation/page2

                    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mk 16:16)
                      Originally posted by Nova2216 View Post
                      In (jn 19:30) Jesus uttered the words "It is finished".

                      I am continually hearing people claim this means Jesus done everything for them regarding salvation.

                      They first use that argument but then in the same discussion they will eventually say one must believe to be saved.

                      At this point I am thinking well, I thought you said Jesus done it all upon the cross.
                      At this point you can't possibly be thinking that you helped provide the atonement for sins.
                      Originally posted by Nova2216 View Post
                      Why do you need to believe?
                      Because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thess 2:13)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                        Are you Martin Luther?
                        22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
                          But he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mk 16:16)

                          At this point you can't possibly be thinking that you helped provide the atonement for sins.

                          Because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thess 2:13)
                          Must one - CONFESS and REPENT to be saved?
                          22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
                            But he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mk 16:16)

                            At this point you can't possibly be thinking that you helped provide the atonement for sins.

                            Because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thess 2:13)
                            If I am already chosen by God to be saved-----------> I do not need to believe.

                            If I need to believe -------------------------------------------> I need to confess.

                            If I need to confess -------------------------------------------> I need to repent

                            If I need to repent ---------------------------------------------> I need to be baptized - (in water for the remission of sins)


                            So do I need to believe to be saved?
                            22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                              Faith precedes salvation and we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
                              Not according to Col 2 and Rom 6 it doesn't. We are saved the moment we are immersed.

                              Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                              Now "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrates that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
                              Tell me, which makes the other alive, the body or the soul? Can the soul be alive without the body? Or can the body be alive without the soul? Yes, the profession of belief is dead until it is accompanied by obedience.

                              Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                              I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that this empty profession of faith/dead faith that James is talking about is not really faith at all. Actions demonstrate that faith is alive, but we are still saved through faith in Christ and not based on the merit of actions that faith produces. Faith that saves is apart from the merit of works, but not apart from the presence of works.
                              That is what I have been saying. Faith that brings salvation requires the presence of obedient acts (repentance, confession, and immersion) before salvation is received.

                              Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                              By the time that you place repentance "after" faith and confession and water baptism into "additional requirements" that we must accomplish "after" faith in order to be saved, then you are adding to the finished work of Christ and don't even seem to realize it. Now faith is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. Confession is also not a work that merits salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) So how can confession be made unto salvation (Romans 10:10) when your gospel plan requires one more step "after" that (water baptism) in order to be saved?

                              Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Water baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15; Titus 3:5) which follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47) and if it's absolutely necessary for salvation, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of being water baptized." You can't have it both ways.

                              Here is the problem with your 4-5 step plan of salvation. You make it sound like Jesus is sitting in heaven with a check list in His hand. Faith, check (but still lost) repent, check (but still lost) confess, check (but still lost) water baptized, check (finally saved) which contradicts multiple passages of scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..) which is implied in repentance, since they are the same coin with two sides. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21) Your "salvation by water and works" gospel plan is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. You seem to place repentance "after" faith and basically define it as moral self-reformation. You also basically seem to define faith as "mental assent belief conjoined with works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."
                              Repentance is not "after" faith, it is a part of faith. Water immersion is not an "additional requirement" to be accomplished after faith, it is part of faith. Yes, our faith completely trusts in Jesus' finished work as the means by which we can reenter communion with God. Correct, repentance does not "merit" salvation, but it is none the less required before salvation is received. Repentance, as I said, is part of faith. No one will repent until he has heard the Gospel and believed that it is true. Then, and only then, will he change his ways and begin living a Godly life (repent). Just as you quoted, confession leads to salvation, salvation does not occur at the instant of confession.

                              Water immersion is not a "work of righteousness". Read Col 2:11-15, and Rom 6:1-5 again several times. Focus on what the passages are saying. See what Paul is saying in both cases. The Spirit of God is the one doing the work, not man. The spirit of God is the focus, not man. And when does the cutting, the removing, the adding, the saving occur? During immersion.

                              I don't trust in water or works. I trust in God, because without God, the water and works would have no meaning. The power is all God, the work is all God, the honor is all God. God says that there are things we must do to qualify to receive His forgiveness. There are steps of obedience that we must take to receive His grace. Those are enumerated in Scripture, believe, repent, confess, and be immersed. None of these are "works of righteousness". They are all things that Scripture says lead to salvation.

                              You choose to read one passage (Eph 2:8-9) and define all of your doctrine on salvation from this verse. But you have misunderstood this verse and so it contaminates all of your understanding of other passages on salvation. This passage does not mean that there is no human action required for salvation. You readily admit that confession (a human action) must precede salvation, yet you claim that it does not merit salvation (and you are correct, it does not). So a human action (confession) is REQUIRED before salvation is received. Yet you balk at immersion (another non-meritorious human act) that Scripture also says leads to salvation. Why is there a difference between confession and immersion in your mind?

                              Comment

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