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Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

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  • #46
    Originally posted by ariel_jesus237 View Post
    I am saved because I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and have been saved for quite a while now. I haven't been baptized yet but I still have faith that my Lord has saved me and I continue to seek His glory and do His will, does that mean because I am not baptized I am not saved yet and if I die I will go where the unsaved go? I believe the man on the cross next to Jesus who had faith in Him was a perfect example, was he baptized? Do you believe he is saved?
    Hi Ariel,

    First let me say God is not limited, and can do whatever He wants. If God chooses to save someone without baptism, He can. However this is not the normal way that He works. If you are not baptized I would seek to be baptized as soon as possible. If you are a faithful believer and something happened before you were baptized you are still saved. However if you know that you should be baptized and do not, then you are in disobedience and I would be concerned at that point. Notice in the Scriptures, when people believed they were immediately baptized, so they did not deal with this problem. When the thief on the cross was saved Jesus was still alive, so the new covenant had not yet started. After Jesus died ,then baptism was required. So yes I believe the thief was saved, but He didn't need to be baptized.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
      Hi watching,

      I hold to the early church on baptism. To answer your question, if a person believes and is baptized they are saved. If they do not know that baptism is necessary for salvation it does not make a difference, because it is not what they understand, it is what God does during the baptism that is what saves. It was the belief in the early church that God spiritually regenerates a person during the baptism.
      Have you clarified the source for the above? Is so, can you point me to the post? Also, would that understanding of ECF also include infant baptism, and if not, why not?

      God Bless!
      Watchinginawe

      I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
        Okay, but you and I both know that the Gnostic portion of your post is irrelevant to the discussion. So lets both agree to stop talking about that and you can post a response to what I've written about Baptism.

        The post about the Gnostics was to BrckBrln.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by genesisblu View Post
          To Butch and Lost: do you both believe there is a difference between initial salvation and further earning (or as I am sure you will say persevering in) salvation? The "first" and "second" step salvation plan?

          So is this your position...you may be "saved" after belief but you are not necessarily saved for eternity until you have also done x, w and z?
          You appear to imply that one must “earn salvation” in some way - is that what you think Holy Writ teaches? Doesn’t the Bible teach that salvation comes by grace through faith - not by works of merit?
          For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10 (KJV)
          You will have to define what you mean by - The "first" and "second" step salvation plan - it is not a term I am familiar with or read about in Scripture. Is it something you just made up? Conversion comes when one obeys from the heart the gospel of Christ and that gospel includes belief, repentance and baptism. You have never answered my question - is the ordinace of baptism a command found in the preaching of the gospel of Christ as presented in the NT? Are the commands of Christ in the gospel of grace - belief, repentance and batism in water essential to His gospel?
          Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost…And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2
          The the NT does speak of salvation in all three tenses - past, present, future…
          For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8, 9)

          For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

          Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by genesisblu View Post
            What early church would this be? Would you care to give the scripture where John says anyone receives the Holy Spirit during his baptism?
            The early Christian church.

            Your question about John, what post are you referencing?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
              The post about the Gnostics was to BrckBrln.
              I replied because you quoted me

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              • #52
                Baptismal regeneration and salvation by works...false, false, false!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by genesisblu View Post
                  What? Not born again or received the Holy Spirit? Just when exactly do you think one receives the Holy Spirit? How do they receive it?
                  The same way Jesus received it after the baptism. I believe that a person is born again during the baptism and receives the Holy Spirit after baptism as Jesus showed and also as Peter states in Act 2:38.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by genesisblu View Post
                    Baptismal regeneration and salvation by works...false, false, false!
                    Baptismal regeneration is the non-biblical teaching that the water of baptism saves apart from faith - ie - baptism of the profoundly mentally retarded, infant baptism, etc - ie - baptizing (sprinkling) those who are incapable of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

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                    • #55
                      Very few church fathers believed that Baptism saved us. Justin Martyr states in Dialog with Trypho the Jew that baptism is the new circumcision - it is a marking of person, set aside for God.

                      I am currently in between the Presbyterian view of baptism (which allows for infants) and the Baptist view (which does not). One thing I would stress, however, is that baptism is in no way salvific. This would be a work added onto grace - it would be something we would have to do, which would then be us securing our salvation. We could boast, because we took a stand and we were baptized.

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                      • #56
                        Can somebody give some scripture that states the plan of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament? Why would God change salvation from faith in the Old to faith plus baptism in the New?
                        sigpic

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                        • #57
                          Peter's Gospel message at the house of Cornelius climaxes in the following:

                          Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

                          38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

                          39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

                          40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

                          41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

                          42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

                          43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

                          And then, the Holy Ghost seals the message at that exact point and baptizes all those present:

                          44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

                          45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                          46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

                          Peter, recognizing that these believers had the full acceptance of God, then commands them to be baptized of water:

                          46 ...Then answered Peter,

                          47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

                          48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


                          Now, did Peter just get interupted before the whole message of salvation could be given out? Peter had occassion to correct himself if that was the case. But we find in his account of the events the following:

                          Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

                          16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

                          17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

                          So again in verse 17 we see where God confers the gift upon belief only and thus Peter could not then withold baptism (performed by men). God had already placed His seal on those believers placing no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

                          And again, later, in the Jerusalem Counsel, we have Peter rising to say:

                          Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

                          7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

                          8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

                          9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


                          10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

                          11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.



                          I don't know how the above could be any more plain. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached (see the Acts 10 passage above), the Gentiles believed, and God, which knew their hearts, purified their hearts by their faith in Jesus Christ! Where is baptism in the above? How did the Gentiles who heard the Gospel by Peter have their heart purified?

                          Now, that is the last we hear of Peter in the book of Acts. He was mature in the Gospel of salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

                          God Bless!
                          Watchinginawe

                          I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                            Can somebody give some scripture that states the plan of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament? Why would God change salvation from faith in the Old to faith plus baptism in the New?
                            He didn't. The works of the Law in the Old Testament - animal sacrifice, keeping the high holy days, circumcision - all foreshadowed what was to come. They were followed not to obtain salvation, but instead out of faith. Paul says as much when discussing that Abraham was saved by faith.

                            Likewise, since circumcision was done out of faith that already existed (e.g. salvation) and was done to set the person aside, baptism does the same. It doesn't save us, it is done by faith that is already present in us, and is done to set us aside.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                              He didn't. The works of the Law in the Old Testament - animal sacrifice, keeping the high holy days, circumcision - all foreshadowed what was to come. They were followed not to obtain salvation, but instead out of faith. Paul says as much when discussing that Abraham was saved by faith.

                              Likewise, since circumcision was done out of faith that already existed (e.g. salvation) and was done to set the person aside, baptism does the same. It doesn't save us, it is done by faith that is already present in us, and is done to set us aside.
                              Agreed. I don't see why God would change the most important thing He ever did, that is, give us salvation.
                              sigpic

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                                Have you clarified the source for the above? Is so, can you point me to the post? Also, would that understanding of ECF also include infant baptism, and if not, why not?

                                God Bless!
                                Hi Watching,

                                I will have to find the reference in ECF's for you. Regarding infant baptism it appears some of them did, I will have to look to see what the reason was. My understanding is that one should believe before being baptized. However Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, the normal method is to believe and then be baptized. I will have to look and see it they thought the order could be reversed.

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