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Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
    That is why I stick to the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Also, while they are not perfect, their agreement with Scripture is strong evidence of doctrinal correctness. Such as with baptism, there are numerous quotes from the ECF's stating that baptism is required for salvation. When you add that to Scripture where Jesus said baptism saves, Peter said baptism saves, and Paul said baptism saves, the evidence is overwhelming.
    So you believe that we must baptize babies then?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by losthorizon View Post
      The NT teaches that one’s sins are remitted at the point of immersion in water by the blood of Jesus Christ. Baptism is the emblem of an inner cleansing by the operation of the Holy Spirit as the penitent believer is “baptized into his death”. Do you believe baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?
      I do not believe the NT teaches what you state. I do believe that water baptism is an essential element to the Gospel and is commanded to this day of those who share the Gospel and those who believe. That is different than including baptism in our soteriology. Doing so makes baptism an agent of God in saving man. I believe this is contrary to the whole of scripture.

      God Bless!
      Watchinginawe

      I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
        Considering it is God that draws His elect unto Him, it is not a work of our own. God puts the faith in us - we are merely acting on something that is irresistible.


        Butch,

        You're misinterpreting some of them, others you are accurate - some believed that water baptism saved us (but, of course, they are wrong).

        The thing you need to do is look deeper into Scripture first and compare Scripture's teachings to the ECF. For instance, do you believe Mary was sinless? Most of the ECF do believe she was sinless.

        You have to keep in mind that most of the ECF are Greek, not Jewish, believers. This means they came to Christ with Platonic presuppositions about the world. Much of their teachings were, unfortunately, tainted by this teaching. They have a low view of the body. Their teaching on water baptism being salvific then is an extension of this and not of Scripture.
        I have look at the scriptures and the ECF's support the SCriptures.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
          I said belief that baptism saves us adds to the work of Christ.
          It is the blood of Christ that saves. If I believe that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Do you believe both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
            I have look at the scriptures and the ECF's support the SCriptures.
            Have you looked at the Greek meaning behind the words?

            Did you consider the historical context of the passage (e.g. what else was baptism used for outside of Christianity? What was it used for prior to Christianity?)?

            Did you compare it with other Scriptures? Did you seek a way to reconcile Paul's statement that grace saves us and not a physical work of our own?

            Did you look to see what circumcision was in the Old Testament?

            Did you find a way to explain how the thief on the cross was saved?

            Did you find a way to explain how the OT saints were saved (Paul says it wasn't by circumcision or the law, but faith...so if they weren't baptized, how were they saved)?

            I'm only asking because you keep saying you've read the Scriptures. I'm hoping it wasn't based on a prima facie reading where you read it, say a quick prayer, and leave it at that. I'm hoping you actually put some study into it - I believe you did in fact. So if you could answer the above questions it'd be extremely helpful.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
              So you believe that we must baptize babies then?
              No I do not hold that postion.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by losthorizon View Post
                It is the blood of Christ that saves. If I believe that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Do you believe both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”
                I thought I've made it clear - if you say you need baptism to be saved, you are adding to salvation.

                I do not believe one has to be baptized in water in order to be saved.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                  No I do not hold that postion.
                  But all the early fathers you're quoting believed it. In fact, they actually came to their beliefs and justified their belief in baptismal regeneration because of the infant baptism. So why do you accept their teachings on baptismal regeneration, but not on infant baptism?

                  This makes me think you haven't read them in their entirety, but only snapshots here and there. The reason I say that is that if one believes in their teachings of baptismal regeneration, one also has to believe in infant baptism. The two can't be separated.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                    Have you looked at the Greek meaning behind the words?

                    Did you consider the historical context of the passage (e.g. what else was baptism used for outside of Christianity? What was it used for prior to Christianity?)?

                    Did you compare it with other Scriptures? Did you seek a way to reconcile Paul's statement that grace saves us and not a physical work of our own?

                    Did you look to see what circumcision was in the Old Testament?

                    Did you find a way to explain how the thief on the cross was saved?

                    Did you find a way to explain how the OT saints were saved (Paul says it wasn't by circumcision or the law, but faith...so if they weren't baptized, how were they saved)?

                    I'm only asking because you keep saying you've read the Scriptures. I'm hoping it wasn't based on a prima facie reading where you read it, say a quick prayer, and leave it at that. I'm hoping you actually put some study into it - I believe you did in fact. So if you could answer the above questions it'd be extremely helpful.
                    Yes I have studied it and can answer your questions, however it will have to be tomorrow as it is 1 am and I have to work in the morning.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                      I do not believe the NT teaches what you state. I do believe that water baptism is an essential element to the Gospel and is commanded to this day of those who share the Gospel and those who believe. That is different than including baptism in our soteriology. Doing so makes baptism an agent of God in saving man. I believe this is contrary to the whole of scripture.

                      God Bless!
                      But isn’t the God-designed ordinance of baptism - an essential part of the gospel of Christ - God’s own work that puts the penitent believer “into Christ” where ALL spiritual blessing reside? If not by immersion in water how else is one added to the body of Christ?
                      For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27 (KJV)

                      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:3 (KJV)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                        I thought I've made it clear - if you say you need baptism to be saved, you are adding to salvation.
                        Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                          But all the early fathers you're quoting believed it. In fact, they actually came to their beliefs and justified their belief in baptismal regeneration because of the infant baptism. So why do you accept their teachings on baptismal regeneration, but not on infant baptism?

                          This makes me think you haven't read them in their entirety, but only snapshots here and there. The reason I say that is that if one believes in their teachings of baptismal regeneration, one also has to believe in infant baptism. The two can't be separated.
                          I have not read the entirety of the ECF's. However I do not take my doctrine from them. I only seek support from them for my doctrine. I accept their teaching on baptismal regeneration based on Scripture with support from the ECF's. Peter said baptism does now save us. 1 Peter 3:19-21 and Paul said God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 Jesus said unless a man is born again, born of water and of the Spirit He cannot see the kingdom of heaven John 3:3-5. Jesus gave us a vivid picture of this at His baptism. He descended into the water and upon coming out the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. He says we are born of water and He was baptized and He says we are born of the Spirit and the Spirit descended on Him. This is the same thing that Paul said in Titus 3:5, God saved us by the washing of regeneration (born of water--baptism) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (born of Spirit). The ECF's belief in regeneration taking place during the baptism is just supporting what I have found in the Scriptures, it is not a basis for my belief, the Scriptures are the basis for my belief.

                          As for infant baptism, I don't hold to it because I don't see it in Scripture.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by losthorizon View Post
                            But isn’t the God-designed ordinance of baptism - an essential part of the gospel of Christ - God’s own work that puts the penitent believer “into Christ” where ALL spiritual blessing reside? If not by immersion in water how else is one added to the body of Christ?
                            For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27 (KJV)

                            Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:3 (KJV)
                            The problem with English is that it's not descriptive. We think "baptism" and automatically associate it with physical immersion. Paul, however, would have been speaking to a Greek audience and speaking in terms that alluded to physical baptism, but meant more.

                            Baptizo simply refers to immersion or cleaning something with water by dunking it in the water. We can't be immersed into Christ physically - unless His body is present and has the capability of opening up and letting us wash in His blood (literally). The reason I use this example is because it doesn't have to mean dunked into water every time it's used. In fact, it's general usage simply means "immersed" or "overwhelmed."

                            When it says we are baptized into Christ, it means we are immersed into His Spirit, not through water baptism. Jesus even alluded to as much when He said He was bringing a Baptism of Spirit that was greater than John's Baptism. In fact, John's Baptism was for the repentance of sin - thus, if being baptized in Christ means we have been remitted of our sins, it is no different than John's baptism.

                            Likewise, if it is a part of salvation then we can accept the Roman Catholic interpretation and baptize babies - it puts them halfway to salvation. All they have to do at that point is confess at some further date. This, of course, causes a problem if they die in-between the baptism and confession.

                            Or the bigger problem that my Iraqi friend told me about. When he and two of his friends were escaping Iraq in the 80's, his friend accepted Christ. My friend was already a Christian, but had witnesses to his two friends. Stuck in the middle of the desert, his friend had no way of being baptized. Unfortunately, his friend died of dehydration in the desert (the other friend never accepted Christ, in case you were wondering).

                            Does this mean that my friend's friend went to hell because there simply wasn't any water available? If it does, then it does mean that the blood of Christ is insufficient for salvation - it becomes Christ's blood + something. It becomes a work. We are saved by the blood of Christ PLUS a work.

                            If, however, you say, "Well, there are exemptions" then we have a bigger problem - it means that it's not needed in every case. If its not needed in every case, why would it be needed in one case?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by losthorizon View Post
                              Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?
                              Nope. I think you're misinterpreting it.

                              If Jesus actually meant that we needed water baptism in order to be saved, I'd argue that He's not worth worshiping because He wouldn't be offering anything new. Plus, His own sacrifice would be worth nothing. It wouldn't be strong enough to save us.

                              So either you're misinterpreting what Jesus said, or He's simply not worth worshiping.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by losthorizon View Post
                                Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?
                                Lost, they are not going to listen. they keep saying baptism is a work. Even though Paul says it is not.


                                Titus 3:5 ( NKJV ) 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

                                Here Paul says God saved us NOT by our woks but by the washing of regeneration which is baptism. so Paul explicitly says here that baptism is NOT a work

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