Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

    Hey all, it's been a few days since I last posted, but I've had a lot on my mind, and figured I would share with you the exact same rebuttal of baptismal regeneration that I'm going to share with my current church tomorrow, let me know what you think of my rebuttal of this false doctrine:

    WHY BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION


    There is much debate over the purpose of baptism and how it pertains to salvation, truth of the matter is, it doesn’t, it is NOT necessary for salvation AT ALL. Let’s view the core verses pertaining to baptism.

    Mark 16:16-He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Looking at this verse we see that it says nothing about somebody who believes but ISN’T BAPTIZED. Jumping to Luke 23:39-43, with the account of the two men crucified on the cross with Christ, one of them is mocking him (he doesn’t believe), but the other cries out to Christ, confessing his faith, and Jesus promises him paradise, WITHOUT BAPTISM. The death of Christ ushered in the new covenant, so going ahead to John 19:32-33, we see that the Roman soldiers broke the bones of the two other condemned men, but not that of Jesus, as he was already dead. Since Jesus had already died at the time the soldiers were breaking the bones of the other prisoners, that was the early hours of the new covenant right there (salvation by grace alone through faith alone, NOT of works, Eph 2:8-9). It clearly is saying that belief saves, unbelief condemns.

    John 3:5-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This passage must be examined by reading the accompanying verses directly below it, verses 6 read: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Being born of WATER refers to our natural birth, being born of the Spirit refers to our regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:38-Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This seems to say that baptism is necessary, but jumping ahead to Acts 3:19-20, Peter has this to say: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. As we all know, nobody can come to Christ unless the Father, by means of the Holy Spirit’s ministry, draws that person (John 6:44), the Spirit’s job is to convict of sin and righteousness (John 16:8-9), so obviously, the Spirit completes his job of convicting the lost sinner and indwells him once they put their faith in Christ, as we can clearly see in Acts 10:46-48, that the Holy Spirit had already indwelled the individuals who were speaking in tongues, Peter then mentions water baptism, so those speaking in tongues were saved before water baptism, as the Holy Spirit had already come upon them. Nobody can repent of sins and come to faith in Christ apart from the working of God’s Spirit, and since those mentioned in Acts 10:46-48 were speaking in tongues, they had received the Holy Spirit (meaning they had received Christ) and were therefore saved. So really, you are baptized to show that your sins have been forgiven, not to have them forgiven, repentance is the working of God (2 Tim. 2:25) and nothing else, somebody who has the ability to repent prior to baptism is already saved.

    Acts 9:17-18-When Saul has his encounter is converted, note that Ananias layed his hand onto Saul (which is often associated with Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and said to him, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” Saul/Paul had his eyes opened by the Holy Spirit in the incident, he heeded the Spirit’s call and was baptized to show that he had, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism, then how come Saul/Paul got his sight prior to being water baptized? Because he had already received the Holy Spirit prior.


    Romans 6:1-7-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. If you read earlier on in Romans 5:1, Paul states that we have peace with God through faith in Christ (read the story of the thief on the cross in Luke again if necessary). So in Romans 6:1-7, water baptism is symbolic of the believer’s death and burial to their old nature, as well as their resurrection to their new nature, it is merely symbolic and has NO SAVING MERIT whatsoever, it identifies that, by reading the aforementioned commentaries, it is something we do not to BE saved, but because we already ARE saved.

    1 Corinthians 12:13-For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. Obviously this is the baptism that God does when we receive the Holy Spirit in the same way as those in Acts 10:46-48 did, prior to water baptism. Paul himself even states in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was sent to preach the gospel and NOT to baptize, that should kill the argument right there, so baptism is, according to that one verse and the other aforementioned verses NOT necessary after all.

    Galatians 3:26-27-For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. According to verse 26, by faith we become children of God, by baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are officially adopted into God’s family, we identify through water baptism that we already have become children of God, NOT to become his children, we already are by faith alone in Christ alone.

    Colossians 2:9-14-For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; The circumcision spoken of in verse 11 is our inward regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which begins the moment we trust in Christ, it is the working of God, and as stated before, baptism symbolizes our death/burial/resurrection with Christ, nothing more.

    1 Peter 3:18-22-For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. In verse 21, in parenthesis (in the KJV), it states “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” God took care of all the work for salvation and there is nothing that we can do but accept or reject it, since it is a free gift received by faith alone (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9, Rev. 3:20), our baptism identifies us with the acceptance of the gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins, eternal death in hell. We are commanded to be baptized, but if somebody puts their faith in Christ, but dies before they have a chance to be baptized, they are still saved and on their way to heaven.

    VERSES THAT JUSTIFY FAITH ALONE W/OUT BAPTISM

    Luke 23:42-And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief on the cross who cried out to Jesus to save him was promised salvation at that moment, he DID NOT have to be baptized, nor did he have the ability to be, so people who cry out to Christ to save them on their deathbed, but don’t have a chance to be baptized, are saved and will go to heaven at their dying hour, PERIOD. In John 6:37, Jesus says that all that come to him he will never cast away, and how do lost souls come to the savior? By the Holy Spirit’s ministry, as seen in John 6:44.

    John 3:16-I shall not write this one out, if you claim to be a Christian and don’t know this verse, then there’s something seriously wrong. Note how Jesus says “believes in him,” BELIEVES IN HIM, NOTHING ELSE.

    John 14:6-I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven, he doesn’t say that anything else is, he ALONE is the way to salvation.


    Acts 10:43-47-To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? As you can see, the Holy Spirit came down as the message was being preached, they, by faith, were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and therefore were saved, as speaking in tongues was evidence of having received the Holy Spirit. As a result of them being saved (and we can tie this into 1 Peter 3:21), Peter instructs them to be baptized to show that they have ALREADY BEEN SAVED.

    Acts 15:7-9-And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. In verse 7, Peter talks about hearing the gospel and believing it, in verse 8, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who accept the gospel message, and in verse 9, begins the purification and transformation, ENTIRELY BY FAITH.

    Acts 16:30-31-Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. So they were already saved, and then later on in verse 33, as a result of believing/being saved, they were baptized.

    Romans 2:29-But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. So we see that the circumcision of heart is accomplished by God’s Spirit, which enters into us BY FAITH.

    Romans 3:24-Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That’s correct, that passage says FREELY, to insist that we have to be baptized in addition to grace is a serious error.

    Romans 4:5-But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith alone justifies us and nothing else.

    Romans 5:1, 9, 18-Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:In verse 1, Paul notes that we have peace with God through faith in Christ, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.In verse 9, we see that we are justified by his blood (think of the song Nothing But the Blood, “What can wash away my sins? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Note how in verse 18, it says that salvation is a FREE GIFT. Think of it as a present in wrapping paper with a tag on it that reads (To: [insert name here] From: God), it’s a gift, NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO EARN IT, you either accept or (very foolishly) reject it.

    Romans 6:23-For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We see what the wages of sin are, and what the gift of God is, a gift is something you receive, it is given to you, you DO NOT earn it.

    Romans 10:9-10-That if thou shalt confess the with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This passage pretty much speaks for itself.

    Ephesians 2:8-9-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith in Christ, as stated before, is a gift from God.

    As you can see, by saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is to add a work, your own, to the finished work of Christ on the cross and puts you at terrible risk of not being saved. Please, I urge you to repent of this error immediately if you hold to it. Yes, in the book of James and in 1 Peter 3:18-22, it makes a mention of these works (well, maybe not in James, but in 1 Peter it does), but these are OUTWARD signs of INWARD change. We get baptized to demonstrate a good conscience toward God, he purified us by faith, and to disobey his commands is to be sinful, but baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, faith alone is, as stated before, if somebody dies before they have a chance to be baptized, but they put their faith in Christ, they’re saved, such as the case with the thief on the cross. In James 2:18, we see “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.” So by being baptized, we’re demonstrating our faith, it is a work, yes, but it identifies outwardly, the inward regeneration that God has accomplished. Saving faith produces works: FAITH+SALVATION=WORKS. Baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, it is something we do out of obedience AFTER salvation. Repent of this error immediately if you hold to it, the book of Galatians has a lot to say about this matter.
    USSA-The United Socialist States of America

    Without Jesus, eternity is a living Hell, literally.

  • #2
    Originally posted by MidnightsPaleGlow View Post
    Hey all, it's been a few days since I last posted, but I've had a lot on my mind, and figured I would share with you the exact same rebuttal of baptismal regeneration that I'm going to share with my current church tomorrow, let me know what you think of my rebuttal of this false doctrine:

    WHY BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION


    There is much debate over the purpose of baptism and how it pertains to salvation, truth of the matter is, it doesn’t, it is NOT necessary for salvation AT ALL. Let’s view the core verses pertaining to baptism.

    Mark 16:16-He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Looking at this verse we see that it says nothing about somebody who believes but ISN’T BAPTIZED. Jumping to Luke 23:39-43, with the account of the two men crucified on the cross with Christ, one of them is mocking him (he doesn’t believe), but the other cries out to Christ, confessing his faith, and Jesus promises him paradise, WITHOUT BAPTISM. The death of Christ ushered in the new covenant, so going ahead to John 19:32-33, we see that the Roman soldiers broke the bones of the two other condemned men, but not that of Jesus, as he was already dead. Since Jesus had already died at the time the soldiers were breaking the bones of the other prisoners, that was the early hours of the new covenant right there (salvation by grace alone through faith alone, NOT of works, Eph 2:8-9). It clearly is saying that belief saves, unbelief condemns.

    John 3:5-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This passage must be examined by reading the accompanying verses directly below it, verses 6 read: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Being born of WATER refers to our natural birth, being born of the Spirit refers to our regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:38-Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This seems to say that baptism is necessary, but jumping ahead to Acts 3:19-20, Peter has this to say: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. As we all know, nobody can come to Christ unless the Father, by means of the Holy Spirit’s ministry, draws that person (John 6:44), the Spirit’s job is to convict of sin and righteousness (John 16:8-9), so obviously, the Spirit completes his job of convicting the lost sinner and indwells him once they put their faith in Christ, as we can clearly see in Acts 10:46-48, that the Holy Spirit had already indwelled the individuals who were speaking in tongues, Peter then mentions water baptism, so those speaking in tongues were saved before water baptism, as the Holy Spirit had already come upon them. Nobody can repent of sins and come to faith in Christ apart from the working of God’s Spirit, and since those mentioned in Acts 10:46-48 were speaking in tongues, they had received the Holy Spirit (meaning they had received Christ) and were therefore saved. So really, you are baptized to show that your sins have been forgiven, not to have them forgiven, repentance is the working of God (2 Tim. 2:25) and nothing else, somebody who has the ability to repent prior to baptism is already saved.

    Acts 9:17-18-When Saul has his encounter is converted, note that Ananias layed his hand onto Saul (which is often associated with Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and said to him, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” Saul/Paul had his eyes opened by the Holy Spirit in the incident, he heeded the Spirit’s call and was baptized to show that he had, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism, then how come Saul/Paul got his sight prior to being water baptized? Because he had already received the Holy Spirit prior.


    Romans 6:1-7-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. If you read earlier on in Romans 5:1, Paul states that we have peace with God through faith in Christ (read the story of the thief on the cross in Luke again if necessary). So in Romans 6:1-7, water baptism is symbolic of the believer’s death and burial to their old nature, as well as their resurrection to their new nature, it is merely symbolic and has NO SAVING MERIT whatsoever, it identifies that, by reading the aforementioned commentaries, it is something we do not to BE saved, but because we already ARE saved.

    1 Corinthians 12:13-For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. Obviously this is the baptism that God does when we receive the Holy Spirit in the same way as those in Acts 10:46-48 did, prior to water baptism. Paul himself even states in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was sent to preach the gospel and NOT to baptize, that should kill the argument right there, so baptism is, according to that one verse and the other aforementioned verses NOT necessary after all.

    Galatians 3:26-27-For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. According to verse 26, by faith we become children of God, by baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are officially adopted into God’s family, we identify through water baptism that we already have become children of God, NOT to become his children, we already are by faith alone in Christ alone.

    Colossians 2:9-14-For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; The circumcision spoken of in verse 11 is our inward regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which begins the moment we trust in Christ, it is the working of God, and as stated before, baptism symbolizes our death/burial/resurrection with Christ, nothing more.

    1 Peter 3:18-22-For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. In verse 21, in parenthesis (in the KJV), it states “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” God took care of all the work for salvation and there is nothing that we can do but accept or reject it, since it is a free gift received by faith alone (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9, Rev. 3:20), our baptism identifies us with the acceptance of the gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins, eternal death in hell. We are commanded to be baptized, but if somebody puts their faith in Christ, but dies before they have a chance to be baptized, they are still saved and on their way to heaven.

    VERSES THAT JUSTIFY FAITH ALONE W/OUT BAPTISM

    Luke 23:42-And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief on the cross who cried out to Jesus to save him was promised salvation at that moment, he DID NOT have to be baptized, nor did he have the ability to be, so people who cry out to Christ to save them on their deathbed, but don’t have a chance to be baptized, are saved and will go to heaven at their dying hour, PERIOD. In John 6:37, Jesus says that all that come to him he will never cast away, and how do lost souls come to the savior? By the Holy Spirit’s ministry, as seen in John 6:44.

    John 3:16-I shall not write this one out, if you claim to be a Christian and don’t know this verse, then there’s something seriously wrong. Note how Jesus says “believes in him,” BELIEVES IN HIM, NOTHING ELSE.

    John 14:6-I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven, he doesn’t say that anything else is, he ALONE is the way to salvation.


    Acts 10:43-47-To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? As you can see, the Holy Spirit came down as the message was being preached, they, by faith, were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and therefore were saved, as speaking in tongues was evidence of having received the Holy Spirit. As a result of them being saved (and we can tie this into 1 Peter 3:21), Peter instructs them to be baptized to show that they have ALREADY BEEN SAVED.

    Acts 15:7-9-And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. In verse 7, Peter talks about hearing the gospel and believing it, in verse 8, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who accept the gospel message, and in verse 9, begins the purification and transformation, ENTIRELY BY FAITH.

    Acts 16:30-31-Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. So they were already saved, and then later on in verse 33, as a result of believing/being saved, they were baptized.

    Romans 2:29-But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. So we see that the circumcision of heart is accomplished by God’s Spirit, which enters into us BY FAITH.

    Romans 3:24-Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That’s correct, that passage says FREELY, to insist that we have to be baptized in addition to grace is a serious error.

    Romans 4:5-But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith alone justifies us and nothing else.

    Romans 5:1, 9, 18-Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:In verse 1, Paul notes that we have peace with God through faith in Christ, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.In verse 9, we see that we are justified by his blood (think of the song Nothing But the Blood, “What can wash away my sins? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Note how in verse 18, it says that salvation is a FREE GIFT. Think of it as a present in wrapping paper with a tag on it that reads (To: [insert name here] From: God), it’s a gift, NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO EARN IT, you either accept or (very foolishly) reject it.

    Romans 6:23-For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We see what the wages of sin are, and what the gift of God is, a gift is something you receive, it is given to you, you DO NOT earn it.

    Romans 10:9-10-That if thou shalt confess the with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This passage pretty much speaks for itself.

    Ephesians 2:8-9-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith in Christ, as stated before, is a gift from God.

    As you can see, by saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is to add a work, your own, to the finished work of Christ on the cross and puts you at terrible risk of not being saved. Please, I urge you to repent of this error immediately if you hold to it. Yes, in the book of James and in 1 Peter 3:18-22, it makes a mention of these works (well, maybe not in James, but in 1 Peter it does), but these are OUTWARD signs of INWARD change. We get baptized to demonstrate a good conscience toward God, he purified us by faith, and to disobey his commands is to be sinful, but baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, faith alone is, as stated before, if somebody dies before they have a chance to be baptized, but they put their faith in Christ, they’re saved, such as the case with the thief on the cross. In James 2:18, we see “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.” So by being baptized, we’re demonstrating our faith, it is a work, yes, but it identifies outwardly, the inward regeneration that God has accomplished. Saving faith produces works: FAITH+SALVATION=WORKS. Baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, it is something we do out of obedience AFTER salvation. Repent of this error immediately if you hold to it, the book of Galatians has a lot to say about this matter.
    You do err, my friend. You can try to justify your understanding of these verses by saying they speak of belief first. However in doing so you overlook the clear verses of scripture that state one must be baptized. Rather than taking your understanding of these verses, and the commentaries that you may read. Why not go to the source? Why don't you go back to the first century Church and see how they practised the doctrines that the apostles taught? See how the men who were taught by the apostles understood the issue of baptism. Theses men were there, they lived in the same culture as the apostles, spoke the same language, faced the same issues, some of them were disciples of the apostles. If anyone knew what the apostles teaching meant, it was the ones the apostles taught, the men who could ask questions if they didn't understand something. I would urge you to go and see what they had to say on the issue. Specifically look at the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
      You do err, my friend. You can try to justify your understanding of these verses by saying they speak of belief first. However in doing so you overlook the clear verses of scripture that state one must be baptized. Rather than taking your understanding of these verses, and the commentaries that you may read. Why not go to the source? Why don't you go back to the first century Church and see how they practised the doctrines that the apostles taught? See how the men who were taught by the apostles understood the issue of baptism. Theses men were there, they lived in the same culture as the apostles, spoke the same language, faced the same issues, some of them were disciples of the apostles. If anyone knew what the apostles teaching meant, it was the ones the apostles taught, the men who could ask questions if they didn't understand something. I would urge you to go and see what they had to say on the issue. Specifically look at the Ante-Nicene Fathers.
      That is a terribly weak argument. An example is Irenaeus. Didn't he believe Jesus was around 50 years old when He died? Well if he said it, since he was so close to Jesus' time, then he must be right?
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
        That is a terribly weak argument. An example is Irenaeus. Didn't he believe Jesus was around 50 years old when He died? Well if he said it, since he was so close to Jesus' time, then he must be right?
        It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that. In the meantime disregarding several Scriptures that plainly state you must be baptized to be saved. The reason that I gave the Ante-Nicene Fathers, for Him to look at, is because every verse that is stated in the OP has been dealt with, and you guys refuse to believe the clear meaning of Scripture. I could sit down and take apart his entire rebuttal line by line. But what would it avail? You guys would just disregard it as you have already done. To answer your question, yes there are writings that indicate that Jesus may have been near 50. Let me ask you, do you know how old Jesus was? The bible doesn't say. So you only know form what someone said. Who said that Jesus was 33 when He died on the cross? Do you know? I doubt it. You can probably find it on the net, but do you know right now while you are reading this. I doubt it. Yet I' ll bet you believe it. The truth is you don't know how old Jesus was. So what is your point about Irenaeus? He may be right, you don't know. However, since he was the disciple of Polycarp and Polycarp was a disciple of John, I think there is a pretty good chance that He may be right. You just assume that He is wrong. If you guys would study the Scriptures and the early church and stop listening to all of these modern day theologians you would not have so many problems understanding the Scriptures. The Ante-Nicene Fathers are a wealth of understanding for those who wish to understand what was taught by the apostles. Why do you accept modern teachings readily yet reject The teachings of the men who were there?

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm always a bit amused that when someone is using scripture to justify their own theology, they will often go into great detail to explain the context of the verses that disagree with their premise, but let the scriptures that agree with it speak for themselves.

          However, I have never studied this subject in as much detail as I demand above. My gut feeling is a merging of the two views; baptism is not a work that gets you saved, but it is an act of obedience that every believer should do. To avoid water baptism would be an act of disobedience; have you really given your life to God if you refuse to do this simple act?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by crawfish View Post
            I'm always a bit amused that when someone is using scripture to justify their own theology, they will often go into great detail to explain the context of the verses that disagree with their premise, but let the scriptures that agree with it speak for themselves.

            However, I have never studied this subject in as much detail as I demand above. My gut feeling is a merging of the two views; baptism is not a work that gets you saved, but it is an act of obedience that every believer should do. To avoid water baptism would be an act of disobedience; have you really given your life to God if you refuse to do this simple act?
            If you take the Scriptures for what they say the clear meaning is that you must be baptized. Paul says God saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of he Holy Spirit. This is the same thing Jesus said unless a man is born of water and the Spirit He cannot see the Kingdom of God.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
              It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.
              What bible do you read?

              Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

              ‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
              That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’

              48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

              Luke 7:50
              Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

              Ephesians 2:8
              For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

              Romans 10:9
              that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

              1 Cor 15
              1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
              3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
              11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

              John 3
              15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
              18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

              That's just a few but where on earth do you see baptism in any of those? What do you see? Those that believe, have faith.

              Just what do you think faith is? You may want to re read Heb 11. I believe it is faith that is the clear imperative.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that. In the meantime disregarding several Scriptures that plainly state you must be baptized to be saved. The reason that I gave the Ante-Nicene Fathers, for Him to look at, is because every verse that is stated in the OP has been dealt with, and you guys refuse to believe the clear meaning of Scripture. I could sit down and take apart his entire rebuttal line by line. But what would it avail? You guys would just disregard it as you have already done. To answer your question, yes there are writings that indicate that Jesus may have been near 50. Let me ask you, do you know how old Jesus was? The bible doesn't say. So you only know form what someone said. Who said that Jesus was 33 when He died on the cross? Do you know? I doubt it. You can probably find it on the net, but do you know right now while you are reading this. I doubt it. Yet I' ll bet you believe it. The truth is you don't know how old Jesus was. So what is your point about Irenaeus? He may be right, you don't know. However, since he was the disciple of Polycarp and Polycarp was a disciple of John, I think there is a pretty good chance that He may be right. You just assume that He is wrong. If you guys would study the Scriptures and the early church and stop listening to all of these modern day theologians you would not have so many problems understanding the Scriptures. The Ante-Nicene Fathers are a wealth of understanding for those who wish to understand what was taught by the apostles. Why do you accept modern teachings readily yet reject The teachings of the men who were there?
                So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                  So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.
                  First of all, I did not say I believed that Jesus was 50 years old, I have not see enough evidence either way. However I don't just accept the fact that He was 33 because someone says so. My problem is following the ECF's? Maybe I should follow Calvin or Luther, then I could be as confused as everyone else. I should be following the apostles, who do you think taught the ECF's? it was the apostles. I follow the apostles as did the ECF's. That is why I don't have the problems reconciling Scripture the way the faith only guys do. The Calvinists can't explain why Jesus warned the disciples to be careful they did not end up in hell. The "Faith Only" crowd has to come up with multiple baptisms to get around the baptismal regeneration, the Arminians also have to deal with the elect being predestined, and so on and so on. The ECF's don't have to deal with these problems, they don't have to choose between free will and predestination, because they understood what Paul meant. I don't have to choose between free will and predestination because I understand what Paul meant, because I have learned it from the ECF's Paul's teaching on free will and predestination is quite clear, can you explain how the two are reconciled? You so quickly write off the ECF's which are a gold mine. Can you read the Scriptures and tell us what they mean? Please explain how there can be predestination and free will.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                    First of all, I did not say I believed that Jesus was 50 years old, I have not see enough evidence either way. However I don't just accept the fact that He was 33 because someone says so. My problem is following the ECF's? Maybe I should follow Calvin or Luther, then I could be as confused as everyone else. I should be following the apostles, who do you think taught the ECF's? it was the apostles. I follow the apostles as did the ECF's. That is why I don't have the problems reconciling Scripture the way the faith only guys do. The Calvinists can't explain why Jesus warned the disciples to be careful they did not end up in hell. The "Faith Only" crowd has to come up with multiple baptisms to get around the baptismal regeneration, the Arminians also have to deal with the elect being predestined, and so on and so on. The ECF's don't have to deal with these problems, they don't have to choose between free will and predestination, because they understood what Paul meant. I don't have to choose between free will and predestination because I understand what Paul meant, because I have learned it from the ECF's Paul's teaching on free will and predestination is quite clear, can you explain how the two are reconciled? You so quickly write off the ECF's which are a gold mine. Can you read the Scriptures and tell us what they mean? Please explain how there can be predestination and free will.
                    What does predestination and free will have to do with baptismal regeneration? Nothing. You seem to think that just because the ECF's were so close to Jesus' time that what they teach is right. They aren't infallible, you know? We have an infallible source called the Bible.

                    Have you ever played that game where you get a whole bunch of people in a circle and one person whispers something in the other person ear and it goes around the circle and when everybody has whispered, what you come out with is probably not what you started with. Just because somebody was taught by someone who was taught by an Apostle doesn't mean they are right in everything they say.

                    Why don't you try and explain all those scriptures that contradict your theology?
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                      So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.
                      Actually, this particular writing of Irenaeus is not as clear as you've presented it. This belief is highly contended against on the grounds of context, context being abused by forcing it to say something it does not clearly say. Some contend that Irenaeus was speaking from a Jewish mindset that catagorizes maturities of men by ages; 13 to 30 as being a young man without the qualification of being "grown". 30 to 50 as being a "grown" mature man. Irenaeus, as it seems, merely put Jesus as being in the catagory of 30 to 50 at the time of his death.

                      Jake
                      Jake

                      What does the bible say?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                        It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.
                        Luke 18:9-14

                        9 And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
                        NASB

                        This publican did nothing but repent and trust God. Jesus said he went down to his house justified. He wasn't baptized before he was justified.
                        Matt 9:13
                        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                        NASU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                          What does predestination and free will have to do with baptismal regeneration? Nothing. You seem to think that just because the ECF's were so close to Jesus' time that what they teach is right. They aren't infallible, you know? We have an infallible source called the Bible.

                          Have you ever played that game where you get a whole bunch of people in a circle and one person whispers something in the other person ear and it goes around the circle and when everybody has whispered, what you come out with is probably not what you started with. Just because somebody was taught by someone who was taught by an Apostle doesn't mean they are right in everything they say.

                          Why don't you try and explain all those scriptures that contradict your theology?
                          Why didn't you answer the question, you have an infallible Bible? Just read it and tell us how to reconcile the two. Do you realize how illogical you statement is? You believe the things taught by modern theologians which are centuries removed from Christ. You believe what they say, yet you turn around and say that just because the ECF's were close to Jesus time doesn't mean they are right. They stretched over a period of about 230 years from France to Rome to North Africa to Turkey and they all taught the same things, if one of them would have been teaching heresy the others would have refuted it and it would be recorded in the writings as was the incident with Arius. They were in harmony on all of the major doctrines. Did they have some differences? Sure. Did they agree on every single point? No. Were they infallible? No. But we have a consensus, a period of over 200 years, with multiple writers, writing from all over the region in the time of the apostles and they are in agreement. What do you have? You have the reformers, several groups who could not agree among themselves, they fought with each other, had people killed, all had different doctrines, etc. You had Luther and Calvin believing one thing, Wesley believing something else, you had Arminius believing still something different. You have the Anabaptists believing still something different. This is what the reformers brought, they also brought the doctrine of "Faith Alone" which did not exist in the church prior to them. They brought the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" which didn't exist in the church before them. They brought the doctrine of predestination to heaven and hell, which they got from Augustine. If you take notice Augustine's doctrines did not get acceptance in the early church, as they were seen for what they were. However when Luther revived them and Calvin Propagated them with the reformed movement the got acceptance. The doctrines of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Predestination to heaven or hell" originally came from the Gnostics. Augustine was a Gnostic before He became a Christian, and He is the one who brought Allegorical interpretation of Scripture into the church. The Gnostics believed in a higher knowledge, they believed that the flesh was corrupt and therefore Jesus could not have come in the flesh to redeem mankind. Therefore they rejected baptismal regeneration, they rejected free will, they rejected the resurrection and they rejected the idea that Jesus had come in the flesh. Since the flesh was corrupt they said that Jesus appeared in a spiritual form and not bodily. That is why John Said,


                          2 John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                          So this group that denied that Jesus came in the flesh, denied baptismal regeneration, and denied free will, John says is anti-Christ. So we see the doctrines that the early church fought so hard against were actually introduced into the church by the reformers. The doctrines that they fought so hard against are being defended in the church today. Was the early church wrong? Were the Gnostics, the ones John calls anti-Christ, the ones who had the true doctrines of the the apostles?

                          Think about it before you dismiss them so quickly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                            Luke 18:9-14

                            9 And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
                            NASB

                            This publican did nothing but repent and trust God. Jesus said he went down to his house justified. He wasn't baptized before he was justified.

                            It also doesn't say he was saved.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                              It also doesn't say he was saved.
                              So now God is in the habit of justifying unbelievers? Are you serious? How much are people going to twist the truth for the sake of trying to make their points?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X