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  • Christ vs the Torah

    I was discussing with some Messianic Jews whether the Torah is still valid. And these brothers still see the Torah as belonging to the Jews, and still valid for them. I informed them that animal sacrifices were temporary forms of atonement, that a better covenant was needed that could cover Israel forever--even in times of failure in their covenant with God. They disagreed, insisting that nothing in the Bible indicates the Law was "temporary." Here is what I said:


    Yes, we disagree. I find that the NT apostles taught that the Law was only until Christ died on the cross, producing final atonement. Animal sacrifices had been intended by God only to be temporary.

    Heb 8.6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises... 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.... 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.... 10.1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

    The temple system was curtailed by God for 2 reasons.
    1) Israel failed, during the worst time in her history, their covenant with God.
    2) Animal sacrifices were never intended to complete atonement for Israel, which had to cover Israel both in their best times and in their worst times. It had to cover Israel even when they were unworthy of their covenant with God.

    Thus, the animal sacrifices and the temple system were always intended to be temporary, because they could not cover Israel during the time of their worst sins and during their failure in maintaining covenant with God. Christ fulfilled that role.

    Do you agree or disagree with how I depict this reason for a change in covenants?

  • #2
    GALATIANS 3


    The Law Brings a Curse

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
    11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
    12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
    13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
    14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
    24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    Comment


    • #3
      I disagree.

      They are correct; It is an everlasting covenant. If someone new comes along and tells them otherwise, they are commanded in their faith to disregard it. So that will never work. In fact the law was given to Israel for government and morality more than anything else. An outsider telling them to abandon that is offensive. You will never win them over with such an argument and in fact will be lucky if your ego makes it out unscathed, as it is rare to find a practicing Jew who doesn't know Torah better than any non Jew.

      Also you are wrong: Remember (not confusing Paul's words) Torah absolutely did not expect perfection. Torah presumed sin. If it had expected perfection, there would have been no prescription for dealing with sin, no sacrifices. What Israel got wrong time and again was rule #1; "You shall have no other gods before me." But they did. Continually. Over and over again. And they killed their children as sacrifices to other gods. Their sin was not in having trouble keeping all the little mitzvat, it was abandoning GOD altogether. It was turning their hearts away.

      To tell a Jew that there entire judicial system has to be done away with is insanity.

      Jesus said repeatedly to keep the Law and that heaven and earth will pass away before the Law does.
      If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

      Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

      For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

      Therefore anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      I also disagree with the use of "The Law brings a curse..." as used in this context. Paul is writing like Plato here, and I believe it's a conflation of what he's saying. The curse is specifically brought about by not keeping Torah. That, therefore, is about the worst argument to present to a Jew.
      Deuteronomy 11:26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, [s]by following other gods which you have not known.26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, [s]by following other gods which you have not known.

      Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.


      Consider King David's passion for the Law:
      "It is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."

      "I find happiness in your Law."

      "Delight is in the Law of the Lord."

      "I take pleasure in your laws."

      "If your Law had not been the source of my joy, I would have died from my sufferings."

      "How I love your Law!"

      "The Law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul."

      And whether we realize it or not, it is a light to our feet as well as it has not ever become okay to murder, or lie, or cheat, or steal, or harm, or ignore the needs of others, etcetera. What christian believes having extramarital affairs is okay? This has never changed.

      Nevertheless, the law is beneath us, not above us. It was made for us, not us for it. Hence it's by David's feet; Put it above your head and you'll despise it. (And GOD will despise your approach to it.)

      I believe the all-or-nothing arguments for the Law are divisive, unrealistic, not objective, and not scriptural. Jesus demonstrated the law perfectly. That we should follow. And therein lies your argument to a Jew.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        I disagree.

        They are correct; It is an everlasting covenant. If someone new comes along and tells them otherwise, they are commanded in their faith to disregard it. So that will never work. In fact the law was given to Israel for government and morality more than anything else. An outsider telling them to abandon that is offensive. You will never win them over with such an argument and in fact will be lucky if your ego makes it out unscathed, as it is rare to find a practicing Jew who doesn't know Torah better than any non Jew.
        Yes, we disagree. Paul told it like it was. And I will do the same thing. To receive Christ is salvation. To go back to the Law of temporary sacrifices is back-tracking, and harming one's relationship with Christ. It is an effort to do things for him that he has *already done.*

        Yes, Israel was told to ignore anybody who preached against what seemed to be an "everlasting Law." But even the rabbis realized that God's Law would change in the coming Age of the Messianic Kingdom. I think even they realized some elements of the worship would change, there being no longer any need to deal with sin, once it had been disposed of.

        So when Israel was told God's Law is everlasting, we know it is. But we also know that God meant to apply His Law "as is" only as long as those particular laws applied. Once Israel had been finally saved from her enemies, that Law would change.

        And my point is, the Law changed when Christ died for sin. Animal sacrifices and all of the purification rituals were no longer needed, including festivals which looked forward to the same. The Law was remade into the New Covenant and the Law of following the Spirit of eternal life now found in Christ. To follow that Law requires no redemption from sin, since Christ already did that.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Also you are wrong: Remember (not confusing Paul's words) Torah absolutely did not expect perfection.
        I'm not at all saying the Torah demanded perfection. I would put it like this. Imperfection caused Man to be booted out of paradise and away from the Tree of Life. Without perfection, Man is not allowed back into Paradise, and cannot be given access to the Tree of Life.

        The alternative, in God's plan, was to provide a perfect Redeemer--not perfection from Israel herself. This perfect Redeemer would not only have to be perfect, but would also have to be God Himself.

        As such, Christ qualified on both points, as Deity and as perfect. As a perfect man he was qualified to do eternal work for God, namely in redeeming Israel. If he had been imperfect, he would've been as disqualified as Man when he sinned. But not having sinned, Christ was qualified to do work for God. And the divine work he accomplished could not be taken away from him--not ever--because what he did was perfect. None of this meant Israel had to be perfect! Perfection was only required of Christ to establish his work as eternal. His redemptive work was thus rendered of eternal value for us. Sin in Christ could not spoil Christ's work because Christ had no sin by which to have his work destroyed.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Torah presumed sin. If it had expected perfection, there would have been no prescription for dealing with sin, no sacrifices. What Israel got wrong time and again was rule #1; "You shall have no other gods before me." But they did. Continually. Over and over again. And they killed their children as sacrifices to other gods. Their sin was not in having trouble keeping all the little mitzvat, it was abandoning GOD altogether. It was turning their hearts away.

        To tell a Jew that there entire judicial system has to be done away with is insanity.
        To dispose of the Law of Moses is not the same as asking Jews to give up their God or the Law of God. It is only giving up Moses' brand of that Law. And we all know Moses fell short. That meant the Law had to be improved on, which is exactly what Christ did. That is not asking too much, to give up a Law that falls short of redemption for a Law that assures us of eternal salvation. This is not just for Jews, but for non-Jews, as well. There is one Law for all nations, the Law of Christ. The walls of division between Jew and non-Jew have been taken down, just like the walls of Jericho came down! Paganism is still a problem, but not ethnicity!

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Jesus said repeatedly to keep the Law and that heaven and earth will pass away before the Law does.
        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.


        You are not reading that correctly. He was telling Jews *at that time* that they were still under the Law, and obligated to keep the *whole Law.* But once Jesus died on the cross, all was "finished" with respect to redeeming Israel. That's why the temple veil came down--the temple was being held up in place of Christ, and had to be taken away.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
        Yes, every requirement under the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. Therefore, at that time it was still important for Israel to observe every law, to show the importance of the work Christ was to do. Sabbath Law was as important as the Law of Sacrifices, since they *all* had to do with trust in Christ's coming redemption.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
        This was *not* saying that the Law of Moses would continue until the universe passes away. In fact, the universe will *never* completely pass away. What this refers to is a change in the universe, an end to the old system in which Satan rules and sinful men rule. In fact, Jesus said the Law would continue only until he fulfilled the things spoken of in the Law with respect to redemption. And he fulfilled redemption at the cross. That Law of
        Christ's finished redemption will continue, as such, until Satan is overthrown and Christ's Kingdom reigns forever.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Therefore anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

        I also disagree with the use of "The Law brings a curse..." as used in this context. Paul is writing like Plato here, and I believe it's a conflation of what he's saying. The curse is specifically brought about by not keeping Torah. That, therefore, is about the worst argument to present to a Jew.
        The problem with speaking to Jews can indeed be a cultural problem, but I don't think that's the critical matter here. I've been speaking on these matters for 20 years. I don't have the missteps that many do who have not dealt with these things before.

        The big problem isn't cultural--it's spiritual. And yes, egos can enter into it. Nobody wants to be told they don't know something, because the sin nature rises up in defiance of authority, when God uses someone to speak to us. It just doesn't come easily for any of us!

        I fully understand the curses of the Law spoken of on Mt. Ebal, and have not said differently, nor do I fail to understand Paul on the matter. Paul is warning Israel that *as a nation* they will fall if they don't, as a people, keep following their one God. And individuals will also be cursed if they flout God's moral requirements on a regular basis or in an extreme way. God is merciful, but He was warning them that He can be intolerant, as well.

        So, the curse of the Law is simple to understand. Christ became a unique kind of curse, however. He took on the Sin Nature of Man--not because he had it, but by experiencing the abuses of men he was around. He took on the full force of Jewish hatred towards him, and died. Thus, he forgave the *worst sin* that Israel had, in effect granting them mercy and forgiveness for *all* their sins.


        Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post
        Deuteronomy 11:26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, [s]by following other gods which you have not known.26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, [s]by following other gods which you have not known.

        Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.




        Consider King David's passion for the Law:
        "It is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."

        "I find happiness in your Law."

        "Delight is in the Law of the Lord."

        "I take pleasure in your laws."

        "If your Law had not been the source of my joy, I would have died from my sufferings."

        "How I love your Law!"

        "The Law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul."



        And whether we realize it or not, it is a light to our feet as well as it has not ever become okay to murder, or lie, or cheat, or steal, or harm, or ignore the needs of others, etcetera. What christian believes having extramarital affairs is okay? This has never changed.

        Nevertheless, the law is beneath us, not above us. It was made for us, not us for it. Hence it's by David's feet; Put it above your head and you'll despise it. (And GOD will despise your approach to it.)

        I believe the all-or-nothing arguments for the Law are divisive, unrealistic, not objective, and not scriptural. Jesus demonstrated the law perfectly. That we should follow. And therein lies your argument to a Jew.
        No, Jesus did not follow the Law as it was given to sinful Israel. He was not a sinner, and the sacrifices applying to sinners did not apply to him. He may have observed them as an example to Israel as to what they were supposed to do. But he was under no obligation other than the obligation to obey his Father in matters of ministry to others.

        The veil tore for a reason. Nothing more had to be done in order for the High Priest to qualify to enter into the Holy of Holies. The way had been opened for all because Jesus was a different kind of High Priest who could qualify for all of us to enter in *through him.* We simply receive his Spirit by accepting his righteousness as our new Law. This is the Gospel.

        God's Law today is simply this: follow and obey Jesus. We do learn, however, from the Law of Moses, what God's holiness is all about. It is not about outward rituals, but about the filling of our inward souls with the Spirit of Christ. We have become God's new and true heavenly temple on the earth. That's why Israel was given a temporary earthly temple, to show God's desire to live among and in His people Israel.

        Redemption requirements are taken care of when we follow Christ and receive his spiritual life. We still have the need to live in the image and likeness of God. But now we can follow Christ as the image and likeness of God, and through him obtain the benefits of his eternal redemption.

        This is eternal life, to be united with God through the gift of Christ's Spirit. And we receive his Spirit by choosing to obey the Law of Christ, which is simply a matter of imitating him, as he reveals what God is like to us. The Law of Moses was given to Israel for this very purpose, to prepare Israel to understand what God is like, and what the life of redemption would look like. The old requirements are no longer applicable. To live like God today is a matter of following God's laws without any redemptive requirements, nor even as they were portrayed in the Old Testament.

        Comment


        • #5
          Rom 3:19-26 - "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

          The Law was there to lead us to Christ and to roll the sins of the past forward onto Jesus. Those sins were not forgiven, simply passed over until they were wiped out by Jesus.

          Matt 5:18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

          The Law did not cease to be in effect until all of it was fulfilled. And it was fulfilled when Jesus said, "It is finished."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
            Rom 3:19-26 - "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

            The Law was there to lead us to Christ and to roll the sins of the past forward onto Jesus. Those sins were not forgiven, simply passed over until they were wiped out by Jesus.

            Matt 5:18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

            The Law did not cease to be in effect until all of it was fulfilled. And it was fulfilled when Jesus said, "It is finished."
            Well said!! Thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by randyk View Post

              Yes, we disagree. Paul told it like it was. And I will do the same thing. To receive Christ is salvation. To go back to the Law of temporary sacrifices is back-tracking, and harming one's relationship with Christ. It is an effort to do things for him that he has *already done.*

              Yes, Israel was told to ignore anybody who preached against what seemed to be an "everlasting Law." But even the rabbis realized that God's Law would change in the coming Age of the Messianic Kingdom. I think even they realized some elements of the worship would change, there being no longer any need to deal with sin, once it had been disposed of.

              So when Israel was told God's Law is everlasting, we know it is. But we also know that God meant to apply His Law "as is" only as long as those particular laws applied. Once Israel had been finally saved from her enemies, that Law would change.

              And my point is, the Law changed when Christ died for sin. Animal sacrifices and all of the purification rituals were no longer needed, including festivals which looked forward to the same. The Law was remade into the New Covenant and the Law of following the Spirit of eternal life now found in Christ. To follow that Law requires no redemption from sin, since Christ already did that.



              I'm not at all saying the Torah demanded perfection. I would put it like this. Imperfection caused Man to be booted out of paradise and away from the Tree of Life. Without perfection, Man is not allowed back into Paradise, and cannot be given access to the Tree of Life.

              The alternative, in God's plan, was to provide a perfect Redeemer--not perfection from Israel herself. This perfect Redeemer would not only have to be perfect, but would also have to be God Himself.

              As such, Christ qualified on both points, as Deity and as perfect. As a perfect man he was qualified to do eternal work for God, namely in redeeming Israel. If he had been imperfect, he would've been as disqualified as Man when he sinned. But not having sinned, Christ was qualified to do work for God. And the divine work he accomplished could not be taken away from him--not ever--because what he did was perfect. None of this meant Israel had to be perfect! Perfection was only required of Christ to establish his work as eternal. His redemptive work was thus rendered of eternal value for us. Sin in Christ could not spoil Christ's work because Christ had no sin by which to have his work destroyed.



              To dispose of the Law of Moses is not the same as asking Jews to give up their God or the Law of God. It is only giving up Moses' brand of that Law. And we all know Moses fell short. That meant the Law had to be improved on, which is exactly what Christ did. That is not asking too much, to give up a Law that falls short of redemption for a Law that assures us of eternal salvation. This is not just for Jews, but for non-Jews, as well. There is one Law for all nations, the Law of Christ. The walls of division between Jew and non-Jew have been taken down, just like the walls of Jericho came down! Paganism is still a problem, but not ethnicity!


              You are not reading that correctly. He was telling Jews *at that time* that they were still under the Law, and obligated to keep the *whole Law.* But once Jesus died on the cross, all was "finished" with respect to redeeming Israel. That's why the temple veil came down--the temple was being held up in place of Christ, and had to be taken away.



              Yes, every requirement under the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. Therefore, at that time it was still important for Israel to observe every law, to show the importance of the work Christ was to do. Sabbath Law was as important as the Law of Sacrifices, since they *all* had to do with trust in Christ's coming redemption.



              This was *not* saying that the Law of Moses would continue until the universe passes away. In fact, the universe will *never* completely pass away. What this refers to is a change in the universe, an end to the old system in which Satan rules and sinful men rule. In fact, Jesus said the Law would continue only until he fulfilled the things spoken of in the Law with respect to redemption. And he fulfilled redemption at the cross. That Law of
              Christ's finished redemption will continue, as such, until Satan is overthrown and Christ's Kingdom reigns forever.





              The problem with speaking to Jews can indeed be a cultural problem, but I don't think that's the critical matter here. I've been speaking on these matters for 20 years. I don't have the missteps that many do who have not dealt with these things before.

              The big problem isn't cultural--it's spiritual. And yes, egos can enter into it. Nobody wants to be told they don't know something, because the sin nature rises up in defiance of authority, when God uses someone to speak to us. It just doesn't come easily for any of us!

              I fully understand the curses of the Law spoken of on Mt. Ebal, and have not said differently, nor do I fail to understand Paul on the matter. Paul is warning Israel that *as a nation* they will fall if they don't, as a people, keep following their one God. And individuals will also be cursed if they flout God's moral requirements on a regular basis or in an extreme way. God is merciful, but He was warning them that He can be intolerant, as well.

              So, the curse of the Law is simple to understand. Christ became a unique kind of curse, however. He took on the Sin Nature of Man--not because he had it, but by experiencing the abuses of men he was around. He took on the full force of Jewish hatred towards him, and died. Thus, he forgave the *worst sin* that Israel had, in effect granting them mercy and forgiveness for *all* their sins.




              No, Jesus did not follow the Law as it was given to sinful Israel. He was not a sinner, and the sacrifices applying to sinners did not apply to him. He may have observed them as an example to Israel as to what they were supposed to do. But he was under no obligation other than the obligation to obey his Father in matters of ministry to others.

              The veil tore for a reason. Nothing more had to be done in order for the High Priest to qualify to enter into the Holy of Holies. The way had been opened for all because Jesus was a different kind of High Priest who could qualify for all of us to enter in *through him.* We simply receive his Spirit by accepting his righteousness as our new Law. This is the Gospel.

              God's Law today is simply this: follow and obey Jesus. We do learn, however, from the Law of Moses, what God's holiness is all about. It is not about outward rituals, but about the filling of our inward souls with the Spirit of Christ. We have become God's new and true heavenly temple on the earth. That's why Israel was given a temporary earthly temple, to show God's desire to live among and in His people Israel.

              Redemption requirements are taken care of when we follow Christ and receive his spiritual life. We still have the need to live in the image and likeness of God. But now we can follow Christ as the image and likeness of God, and through him obtain the benefits of his eternal redemption.

              This is eternal life, to be united with God through the gift of Christ's Spirit. And we receive his Spirit by choosing to obey the Law of Christ, which is simply a matter of imitating him, as he reveals what God is like to us. The Law of Moses was given to Israel for this very purpose, to prepare Israel to understand what God is like, and what the life of redemption would look like. The old requirements are no longer applicable. To live like God today is a matter of following God's laws without any redemptive requirements, nor even as they were portrayed in the Old Testament.
              So you're saying this is the argument that works for Jews?

              I guess I misunderstood your opening post.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                Rom 3:19-26 - "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

                The Law was there to lead us to Christ and to roll the sins of the past forward onto Jesus. Those sins were not forgiven, simply passed over until they were wiped out by Jesus.

                Matt 5:18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

                The Law did not cease to be in effect until all of it was fulfilled. And it was fulfilled when Jesus said, "It is finished."
                So, let's say I'm Jewish. What part of the Law did he fulfill that finishes it? And why then are we not in the Messianic age (of peace)?

                I'm just curious as to how these arguments work when speaking with Jews.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

                  So you're saying this is the argument that works for Jews?

                  I guess I misunderstood your opening post.
                  You're not saying much....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by XNYHCX View Post

                    So, let's say I'm Jewish. What part of the Law did he fulfill that finishes it? And why then are we not in the Messianic age (of peace)?

                    I'm just curious as to how these arguments work when speaking with Jews.
                    The Gospel has its own convicting power. One simply needs to speak the truth, and not be tricky. There are indeed stumbling blocks of various kinds we should hope to avoid. But there is no force of mind that "works" with anybody except speaking the truth and letting the Holy Spirit convict. Some come sooner and some come later--it's between God and the person.

                    There are several kinds of Jews, and I'm sure the message will be received differently depending on the education, Orthodox, Reformed, Conservative. I don't know all these brands, but I suspect the hardest mind to penetrate is one raised in Orthodox yeshivas.

                    To be clear, one must either admit that Christ "finished" something on the cross, or didn't. If indeed you admit he "finished" our salvation, then he certainly brought a change to the Law, ending temple law for all time, to be replaced with the Law of the Spirit of eternal life. We live with the assurance of eternal life--we can't earn it by making payment for our salvation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Randy,

                      You and most Christians have it wrong...Jesus did not end the law nor teach that... you can believe what Jesus taught or not up to you...but this is what he said:

                      Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

                      You would be considered part of a multitude yes?

                      I do not know what about this people don't understand:

                      All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do

                      What about this do you not understand? It is pretty clear to me... He goes on to say not to do after their works... but of course they teach the law this is what they bid you. So I have never understood the Christian stance on the Law.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        [SIZE=16px]I was discussing with some Messianic Jews whether the Torah is still valid. And these brothers still see the Torah as belonging to the Jews, and still valid for them. I informed them that animal sacrifices were temporary forms of atonement, that a better covenant was needed that could cover Israel forever--even in times of failure in their covenant with God. They disagreed, insisting that nothing in the Bible indicates the Law was "temporary."
                        Are you assuming that the animal sacrifices are the sum and substance of the Torah? If so, I would side with the Messianic Jews. The Torah is still valid. It was valid when Isaiah wrote chapter one.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                          Hi Randy,

                          You and most Christians have it wrong...Jesus did not end the law nor teach that... you can believe what Jesus taught or not up to you...but this is what he said:

                          Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

                          You would be considered part of a multitude yes?

                          I do not know what about this people don't understand:

                          All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do

                          What about this do you not understand? It is pretty clear to me... He goes on to say not to do after their works... but of course they teach the law this is what they bid you. So I have never understood the Christian stance on the Law.
                          My view is that what Jesus said during his earthly ministry was said to Israel while Israel alone was God's people and they were still under the Law of Moses. The Apostle Paul most definitely taught against the continuation of the covenant of Law in the age of Christianity. There are many, many Scriptures on this. We need to be aware that what Jesus taught under the Law is different to how Jesus speaks to the Church today. We are not under the Law of Moses as non-Jews. And not even Jews are under the Law anymore, since their temple was torn down to illustrate that not only was Israel under judgment, but redemption was no longer available under that system anymore, but only in Christ.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                            Rom 3:19-26 - "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

                            The Law was there to lead us to Christ and to roll the sins of the past forward onto Jesus. Those sins were not forgiven, simply passed over until they were wiped out by Jesus.

                            Matt 5:18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

                            The Law did not cease to be in effect until all of it was fulfilled. And it was fulfilled when Jesus said, "It is finished."
                            Not yet. There is more to be fulfilled.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                              Are you assuming that the animal sacrifices are the sum and substance of the Torah? If so, I would side with the Messianic Jews. The Torah is still valid. It was valid when Isaiah wrote chapter one.


                              Raised a Protestant Lutheran I'm well versed in the idea that the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant, and believe firmly that we are under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. I associate the Law with the Old Covenant, and believe that any solid principles found in the Law can be transferred over into the New Testament without losing the principle of Divine Law. For example, the prohibition against murder can easily be transferred from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ. To remain in the Law of Moses is to perpetuate the requirements of temple, priesthood, and sacrificial systems, which Christ has fulfilled.

                              You're certainly correct that the Torah never consisted solely of sacrifices, since Isaiah pointed out that God's temple was not really confined to an earthly temple, but really transcended the universe.Sacrifices, if done illegitimately, were no better than breaking a dog's neck. God loved a pure heart better than heartless religious works. We all know this.

                              However, Jesus emphasized, while still under the Torah, that every one of the requirements of the Law were important, with those who deemphasize the requirements being lesser in the Kingdom of heaven. And so, the sacrifices always were important in the Torah, along with spiritual/moral values. The important thing to note is that sacrifices were to be done with a proper spirit and with the right heart. They were not to be dismissed as unimportant!

                              The main thing to note is that Christ came to fulfill the sacrifices in his one sacrifice--his death on the cross. After that, sacrifices of animals would be redundant and seen for what they really were, as portents of Christ's death. If atonement was already made for all time, why would anybody continue to make animal sacrifices for atonement? No, the Torah was completed at Christ's atoning death, and to irrationally perpetuate it would logically require sacrifices and all of the laws--all 613 of them!

                              I would add that the idea of God's Law indicates it is of eternal value, as long as Man exists. Man will always be required to live in God's image. That is a law. That is God's eternal law for Man. However, that is not to be confused, I think, with the Law of Moses. Once sacrifice was made in heaven, earthly sacrifices lost their value. At any rate, Israel proved they could not have their sins atoned for by animal sacrifices. Not only were they and their priests unworthy, but animal sacrifices would not, in any event, suffice. They were merely an act of faith in God that He possesses the mercy to make this atonement in heaven, which He demonstrated in the death of Christ on the earth. Once Christ died for our sins, animal sacrifices became unnecessary.

                              Not only so but whenever Israel sinned under Torah, they were cursed, and lost their temple worship. They had no more means of atonement. However, God's atonement was always meant to originate from heaven, and God had always planned to provide Christ as the ultimate atonement. So when Israel once more fell into national apostasy, at the 1st coming of Christ, rejecting their Messiah, their atonement could not come from the temple worship, which would be destroyed, but only from Christ, God's heavenly atonement.

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