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  • To you who promote the Law of Moses in Christianity...

    Some here say that if you obey the Sabbath Day, follow the priesthood of Jesus, and keep the 10 Commandments, you are in obedience to the Law of Moses. That is *not* obedience to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses had perhaps 613 requirements, involving temple, priest, and sacrifice. The sacrifice cannot be changed to mean a different kind of sacrifice. The temple cannot be changed to mean a different kind of temple. And the priesthood cannot be changed to mean a different kind of priesthood. All of these laws were a set and were largely fixed.

    In the NT Covenant, Divine Law remains, though not the Law of Moses. It's a different set of laws that depend on the atonement of Christ. Application of the Law of Moses was said to be incapable of eternal redemption, and what the NT now offers, the OT Law couldn't give--eternal redemption. It is Law but in dependency upon Divine Atonement through Christ.

    It's a mistake to think there is no Law and no Works in the NT Covenant. It's just that Works under the Law of Moses were disqualified for eternal salvation. What Paul referred to as "Works" referred to Works under the OT Law. It was a temporary reprieve, accepted as legitimate works nonetheless. It just couldn't bring about eternal redemption.

    I would point out, in this regard, that there are 2 different aspects to Works in the Scriptures, legitimate and illegitimate. Illegitimate Works are those done to be "seen of men," done hypocritically to pretend righteousness. They are external applications of what appears to be righteousness, but actually conceals evil within.

    The other sense of Works we read about is the legitimate Works of the Law, which did indeed please God. But when Paul speaks of its incapacity to redeem on a permanent basis, that is altogether something different. They were legitimate acts of obedience, but they could not redeem in the eternal stretch of time.


    Works always have to be part of a righteous system. What matters is that we receive eternal redemption, which only comes from a system that is based on the atonement of Christ, and not our own poor representation of it before it comes. After all, the Works of redemption done under the Levitical and Aaronic priesthoods were merely pictures of a greater redemption that would be eternal, accomplished by the atonement of Christ.

    That's what Israel did. They did righteous works, but their laws were based on a temporary reprieve, presenting sacrifices temporarily until Christ came. What they did worked for the short term. For the long time, they portrayed the coming of Christ and his eternal redemption.

    Giving up the OT Covenant did not take away Law. It just took away a set of laws that could not provide eternal salvation. Some of the same laws were issued in the NT Covenant, which was based on Christ's atonement. As such, these laws excluded all requirements under the OT Covenant, which previewed the atonement only Christ could bring. Temple, priesthood, and sacrifice went away. Other laws, like the Sabbath Law, were also tied to this, and went away, as well. They were not things Christ himself did to produce righteousness for us. They were only pictures of what Christ would do in a different way.

  • #2
    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    Works always have to be part of a righteous system. What matters is that we receive eternal redemption, which only comes from a system that is based on the atonement of Christ, ...

    In the NT Covenant, Divine Law remains, though not the Law of Moses.
    How long will you love delusions; Know that the Lord has set apart the faithful for himself; Psalm 4:2-3

    The Lord has prepared a sacrifice and consecrated those He called. Zephaniah 1:7

    Comment


    • #3
      The difference between the old covenant and the new is simply this: in the old covenant people were expected to adhere to the letter. They had to try and obey the Law by working under their own power. In the new covenant Christ has become our righteousness and He does it all for us by the Holy Spirit. The only "law" we're under is to be obedient to the Spirit.

      The new covenant is set forth in the New Testament according to guiding principles; unlike the old covenant which was set forth in specific precepts. I'm not saying these principles are only "suggestions"; that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that now we have been set free from the bondage of the letter of the law to obey the Spirit.

      We are NO LONGER UNDER LAW OF ANY KIND, except the law of liberty to let Christ do for us, and in us, what we can't do for ourselves. Those who continue to suggest otherwise want to enslave those who have escaped this bondage. The joy of the new covenant is in liberty, not bondage. We can never experience the abundant life Christ promised if we expect it to be found in the "letter."
      Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

      Comment


      • #4
        "Nor will I accept an offering from your hands. From the rising of the sun, even to its setting..." Mal 1:11
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
        The difference between the old covenant and the new is simply this: in the old covenant people were expected to adhere to the letter.
        Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses. 1 King 8:56
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
        They had to try and obey the Law by working under their own power.
        "But cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the Lord." Jeremiah 17:5
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
        In the new covenant Christ has become our righteousness and He does it all for us by the Holy Spirit.
        If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do? 4 The Lord is in His holy temple, Psalm 11:3-4
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
        The joy of the new covenant is in liberty, not bondage.
        May He send you help from the sanctuary, And strengthen you out of Zion; Psalm 20:2
        Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;
        You have declared Your strength among the peoples. 15 You have with Your arm redeemed Your people, Psalm 77:13-15
        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
        We can never experience the abundant life Christ promised if we expect it to be found in the "letter."
        “The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
        Says the Lord.
        21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.” Isaiah 59:19-21

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
          How long will you love delusions; Know that the Lord has set apart the faithful for himself; Psalm 4:2-3

          The Lord has prepared a sacrifice and consecrated those He called. Zephaniah 1:7
          So what are you arguing, that we are not under the Law of Moses or not under any Law of God at all? I prefer not to talk so much about being under the Law of God because it sounds to much like I'm saying we're under the Law of Moses. We're not--we're only under the Law of God in the sense that we are under the standards and lordship of Christ.

          Need I show again and again how the author of Hebrews and Paul both argued against the idea anybody is under the Law of Moses any longer? (I believe Hebrews was written by Barnabas.) Hebrews plainly indicated that the Sabbath has been replaced by hope in "another Sabbath"--the Kingdom of God. He argues that the 1st Covenant had become the "Old Covenant" because the New Covenant had come. He argued that the true temple is a "heavenly temple"--not the old earthly one, which worship was soon to be ended by the 70 AD disaster. He argued that animal sacrifices could "never take away sins," ie the Sin Nature. He argued that the true priesthood belonged not to a faulty priesthood, but to a perfect, sinless priest, who lives forever.

          Paul makes it absolutely clear that the eternal covenant is based on a "promise" in Romans, and not on a Law of working past the Sin Nature. He argued that Jewish ritual was only being practiced to show respect for potential Jewish converts, and not because either Jewish or Gentile believers were obligated to follow them. He argued that circumcision was actually internal, and not necessary in the physical sense. And he went so far as to say the Spirit is given not out of obedience to the Law, and that those who rely on the Law for salvation are under a curse.

          When Paul talks about "works that do not justify," he wasn't saying that Christians don't do good works, nor viewing them as unnecessary in the Christian life. Rather, he was speaking of works under the Law of Moses, which were meant to show the incapacity of Man to obtain justification apart from Christ.

          You can show all day long that Christians are required to do works, but you cannot show that works justify men apart from Christ. And if so, then the Law of Moses is needless, because Christ came apart from the Law and was not under any Law. He was spotless, and as such, redeemed us apart from a failed system that proved incapable of saving Israel. He saved us by his own righteousness, apart from the Law. And so we live by his righteousness, and not by the righteousness of the Law.

          Comment


          • #6
            God didn't expect the sinners in the OT to adhere to the letter of the law. He expected them to be honest with themselves by seeing that they couldn't do it.

            The NT promotes the law that way, by showing us we've all sinned. So when the Lord writes his law in our hearts, we should always have in mind that we depend on God's mercy for salvation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by journeyman View Post
              God didn't expect the sinners in the OT to adhere to the letter of the law. He expected them to be honest with themselves by seeing that they couldn't do it.
              Originally posted by journeyman View Post

              The NT promotes the law that way, by showing us we've all sinned. So when the Lord writes his law in our hearts, we should always have in mind that we depend on God's mercy for salvation.


              Please think about this, brother. I ask you to share some info with me, and you say: "Thanks for asking me. This actually informs me that I can't give you info. By God's mercy, it may happen, but I'm utterly unable to do as you request. I've been bound and rendered incapacitated unless somehow, by God's mercy, God enables me to share info with you."

              Do you see how utterly ridiculous this would be? And that is what you're saying when you say God gave a Law to Israel and expected them to fail and acknowledge that they never could do what He asked, but could only obey if somehow, by God's mercy, He enabled them to obey.

              This is the absurdity that causes me to address this issue. I think Christians honestly read Paul this way and believe they're simply conforming to Scripture when the truth is--they just don't properly understand what Paul is saying! And I admit--it can be tough. I've been studying it all my life!

              Luther himself felt his own will was in bondage, simply because the Scriptures say that all men are bound to sin and cannot be saved without God's help. While that is true, it certainly isn't put into the proper perspective. The binding of our will to sin does not mean we cannot obey God! It just means that we cannot do good without doing it imperfectly, as well, which prevents us from inheriting heaven without the mercy of Christ.

              The purpose of the Law was, in fact, to call upon Israel to obey God and to do good before Him, even though it was expected that they would do it imperfectly, and would need to offer sacrifices for forgiveness. They were asked to do good and to expect God's grace to accept their offerings as they were, despite their imperfection.

              The Law showed Israel that despite their imperfection they could obey God and be accepted by Him. They could live by God's grace under the law of animal sacrifices, assuming they were obedient to His commands. But never did the Law imply that Israel could not obey--only that they required atonement to be accepted.

              Paul's argument is that even atonement under the Law was temporary, and kept Israel in God's good graces only for a time, until they sinned again. That is the argument in Hebrews, that sacrifices had to be offered in perpetuity because the Sin Nature in Israel kept them in need of forgiveness.

              Christ came to remove the perpetual need for animal sacrifice in Israel--indeed he removed the need for animal sacrifices at all, since he came to be the final and better sacrifice for sin. He atoned for sins forever by a single act of atonement.

              And so, the Law showed Israel that even though they couldn't be finally atoned for through the Law, they could remain in good standing with God until the better atonement came, making animal sacrifices no longer necessary. They could not, by their own imperfection under that system, obtain final atonement. But it was accepted by God until God provided His own flawless atonement, which serves for all eternity.

              The Law did show Israel's incapacity under a system that they presided over, due to their imperfection. But it did not show that they could not obey God or remain in His good graces. It was intended to be a functional system, if only temporary, until the better system arrived.

              Comment


              • #8
                And that is what you're saying when you say God gave a Law to Israel and expected them to fail and acknowledge that they never could do what He asked, but could only obey if somehow, by God's mercy, He enabled them to obey.
                In my opinion,

                God had a plan long time ago. The law of Moses was the law of the flesh.It was written for those driven by the desires of the flesh.A person driven by the desires of the flesh, did not understand their fleshly ways as being sinful. Therefore the sinner was given a Law for sin, to advise what is sin and what is righteousness, i.e. don't kill, don't steal, etc..but Love your God, believe in your God. love your neighbor as yourselves....Yet, we could only perceive this through the desires of the flesh, we physically circumcised ourselves but our hearts remained uncircumcised. Hence we followed the rules and regulations, which most of us call Moses law but we missed the main point of that law, believe in God, love God, love one another.

                The law preached by Jesus in the name of God is the law of the Spirit, and not the Law for sin, meaning it was/is given to those given the Holy Spirit with the grace of God, those that have the law written in their hearts in the form of conscience guided by the Holy Spirit, meaning the Spirit now rules the flesh instead of the flesh being driven by its fleshly desires. Therefore we are now under the Law of the Spirit and not the Law for sin.

                At the same time, in comparison to Moses's law, the Law of the Spirit also emphasizes the same thing: Love God, believe in God, love your neighbor like yourself, encompassing all the Moses tried to teach.One can't kill another. or steal from another or have the wife of another if they love the other more than themselves.... In the old and new testament, we always had to get circumcised by heart first, to be righteous, as Abraham did. The physical circumcision was the stamp of righteousness, as is baptism now, but by itself in no way it does make one righteous. One has to believe in God and love God, and love one another like themselves. The fruit/deeds of that would follow naturally.

                Following the Law for sin, meaning one is ruled by the desires of the flesh, it leads not to redemption, but to death. Following the Law of the Spirit leads to the path of achieving eternal life, the redemption/atonement of our sins being fulfilled by Jesus Christ when He was sacrificed like an innocent lamb for all our sins.

                When God gave the law to Moses, he already knew everyone was a sinner.
                The purpose of the Law was not to give them redemption through the law, because he couldn't,they were sinners in his eyes already, but to legalize the sins they were committing, so humans understood that they were sinful. He could not save them without the law. Without the law you can't judge by the law. Those that sinned without law will be judged without law. The point is, the Law is a necessity in God's plan, step of the plan that will help redeem the sinners when the full plan is fulfilled. So God initiated the road to salvation by giving us the law for "framing" sinners first. The bigger the sins framed into God's law, the bigger the blood sacrifice required. As per the old testament, sin is washed away by innocent blood. The only innocent blood that could redeem the sins of so many sinners could only come from God, in the flesh of God's only son Jesus Christ. The sins however, had to match the significance of the sacrifice, it being God's only son, hence God magnified the sins, by "enabling them to obey" and sin even more...

                To affirm the answer to the initially quoted text, if not clear yet, in my opinion yes, it was God's will that they sin more than they had already done, so they can become worthy of saving by his plan, his plan being sacrificing his only son for the sins of many. When Jesus said it is fulfilled, that's what he meant in my opinion. He fulfilled God's plan to redeem all sinners, dead or alive by his innocent blood.. By his death, we were free of the guilt of the sins of the flesh and were free to follow our spirit. God wrote the law into our hearts instead, gave us our spirit back, our inner voice, our moral compass, and by the Grace of God, if we follow the spirit and not the desires of the flesh, the "worthy" ones will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit into their hearts to guide them into the ways of achieving eternal life.

                Christ came to remove the perpetual need for animal sacrifice in Israel--indeed he removed the need for animal sacrifices at all, since he came to be the final and better sacrifice for sin. He atoned for sins forever by a single act of atonement.
                Yes, I agree. However, we should now be even more determined than ever to love and believe in God and follow his ways. As we are now freed from the burden of the consequences of the law of the sin, and are given a choice, be ruled by the Spirit, or be ruled by the flesh. Whoever is still ruled by the desires of the flesh is not by God. They don't have God's law written in their hearts,their ways will lead to death. Only those that sacrifice the flesh in the name of God, and live like Jesus Christ did, will achieve eternal life, by the Grace of God.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  Please think about this, brother. I ask you to share some info with me, and you say: "Thanks for asking me. This actually informs me that I can't give you info. By God's mercy, it may happen, but I'm utterly unable to do as you request. I've been bound and rendered incapacitated unless somehow, by God's mercy, God enables me to share info with you."

                  Do you see how utterly ridiculous this would be? And that is what you're saying when you say God gave a Law to Israel and expected them to fail and acknowledge that they never could do what He asked, but could only obey if somehow, by God's mercy, He enabled them to obey.

                  This is the absurdity that causes me to address this issue. I think Christians honestly read Paul this way and believe they're simply conforming to Scripture when the truth is--they just don't properly understand what Paul is saying! And I admit--it can be tough. I've been studying it all my life!

                  Luther himself felt his own will was in bondage, simply because the Scriptures say that all men are bound to sin and cannot be saved without God's help. While that is true, it certainly isn't put into the proper perspective. The binding of our will to sin does not mean we cannot obey God! It just means that we cannot do good without doing it imperfectly, as well, which prevents us from inheriting heaven without the mercy of Christ.

                  The purpose of the Law was, in fact, to call upon Israel to obey God and to do good before Him, even though it was expected that they would do it imperfectly, and would need to offer sacrifices for forgiveness. They were asked to do good and to expect God's grace to accept their offerings as they were, despite their imperfection.

                  The Law showed Israel that despite their imperfection they could obey God and be accepted by Him. They could live by God's grace under the law of animal sacrifices, assuming they were obedient to His commands. But never did the Law imply that Israel could not obey--only that they required atonement to be accepted.

                  Paul's argument is that even atonement under the Law was temporary, and kept Israel in God's good graces only for a time, until they sinned again. That is the argument in Hebrews, that sacrifices had to be offered in perpetuity because the Sin Nature in Israel kept them in need of forgiveness.

                  Christ came to remove the perpetual need for animal sacrifice in Israel--indeed he removed the need for animal sacrifices at all, since he came to be the final and better sacrifice for sin. He atoned for sins forever by a single act of atonement.

                  And so, the Law showed Israel that even though they couldn't be finally atoned for through the Law, they could remain in good standing with God until the better atonement came, making animal sacrifices no longer necessary. They could not, by their own imperfection under that system, obtain final atonement. But it was accepted by God until God provided His own flawless atonement, which serves for all eternity.

                  The Law did show Israel's incapacity under a system that they presided over, due to their imperfection. But it did not show that they could not obey God or remain in His good graces. It was intended to be a functional system, if only temporary, until the better system arrived.
                  I must not be explaining what I mean very well. Let me try it this way. Who does the OT sin sacrifice represent?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I mean really, utimately.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm exhaused and need sleep, but i mean this atoner, reconciler, appeaser, poputiation. Who is he in reality?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        In my opinion,

                        God had a plan long time ago. The law of Moses was the law of the flesh.It was written for those driven by the desires of the flesh.A person driven by the desires of the flesh, did not understand their fleshly ways as being sinful. Therefore the sinner was given a Law for sin, to advise what is sin and what is righteousness, i.e. don't kill, don't steal, etc..but Love your God, believe in your God. love your neighbor as yourselves....Yet, we could only perceive this through the desires of the flesh, we physically circumcised ourselves but our hearts remained uncircumcised. Hence we followed the rules and regulations, which most of us call Moses law but we missed the main point of that law, believe in God, love God, love one another.
                        This is often thought because we read that the Law was made for lawbreakers.

                        1 Tim 1.8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

                        But Paul was not saying the Law was not for all Israel, righteous and unrighteous. What he was saying was that it was a means of preventing lawbreakers from assuming control of the nation. Godly men used the Law as a righteous standard, and were no threat to the nation's standing with God. But ungodly men would pervert and disobey the Law, thus destroying Israel's covenant with God. Paul was not saying that the Law had no value for righteous men, but that the critical element was to prevent the covenant from being broken.

                        Godly men and women would use the Law properly, to repent when they need to, and to conform to God's will when they are convicted by the truth. But ungodly men need to be restrained by the Law precisely because they don't respect it. That's why the Law was made a national standard, and not just an individual choice.



                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        The law preached by Jesus in the name of God is the law of the Spirit, and not the Law for sin, meaning it was/is given to those given the Holy Spirit with the grace of God, those that have the law written in their hearts in the form of conscience guided by the Holy Spirit, meaning the Spirit now rules the flesh instead of the flesh being driven by its fleshly desires. Therefore we are now under the Law of the Spirit and not the Law for sin.
                        You are creating a false dichotomy. The Law was spiritual--not carnal. You are creating the kind of dichotomy created by Gnostics, who saw righteousness as based on a knowledge--not human works. The Law was spiritual and demanded spiritual works. Righteousness was based on both faith and works, because faith without works is dead.

                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        At the same time, in comparison to Moses's law, the Law of the Spirit also emphasizes the same thing: Love God, believe in God, love your neighbor like yourself, encompassing all the Moses tried to teach.One can't kill another. or steal from another or have the wife of another if they love the other more than themselves.... In the old and new testament, we always had to get circumcised by heart first, to be righteous, as Abraham did. The physical circumcision was the stamp of righteousness, as is baptism now, but by itself in no way it does make one righteous. One has to believe in God and love God, and love one another like themselves. The fruit/deeds of that would follow naturally.
                        Circumcision is a work under the Law, and as such is outdated. It was a temporary means of righteousness until Christ, eternal righteousness, appeared. True and eternal works in the present age are the works of Christ in us.

                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        Following the Law for sin, meaning one is ruled by the desires of the flesh, it leads not to redemption, but to death. Following the Law of the Spirit leads to the path of achieving eternal life, the redemption/atonement of our sins being fulfilled by Jesus Christ when He was sacrificed like an innocent lamb for all our sins.
                        We don't follow the OT Law at all, since it has now been fulfilled in the eternal Christ. But when the Law was in play, it was a temporary Law of righteousness--not sin. It was spiritual--not carnal.

                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        When God gave the law to Moses, he already knew everyone was a sinner.
                        The purpose of the Law was not to give them redemption through the law, because he couldn't,they were sinners in his eyes already, but to legalize the sins they were committing, so humans understood that they were sinful. He could not save them without the law. Without the law you can't judge by the law. Those that sinned without law will be judged without law. The point is, the Law is a necessity in God's plan, step of the plan that will help redeem the sinners when the full plan is fulfilled. So God initiated the road to salvation by giving us the law for "framing" sinners first. The bigger the sins framed into God's law, the bigger the blood sacrifice required. As per the old testament, sin is washed away by innocent blood. The only innocent blood that could redeem the sins of so many sinners could only come from God, in the flesh of God's only son Jesus Christ. The sins however, had to match the significance of the sacrifice, it being God's only son, hence God magnified the sins, by "enabling them to obey" and sin even more...
                        It's true that the size of the sin had to be big--it had to be big enough to forgive all sinners. But the purpose of the Law was not to entice men to sin, but rather, to expose those who chose to live independent of God's word. It increased and magnified their sin so that it could be seen for what it was. It was not just to "frame sin," but to actually expose it so that it could be removed from Israel by the righteous. When, however, sinners increased they were able to dominate the righteous, and lead the nation to its worst sin. As such a time Christ came to forgive all sinners, in particular those willing to repent.

                        The Law did bring temporary redemption--it didn't just expose sins in men. It offered them a way of repentance before God, offering animal sacrifices until the greater sacrifice came--Christ.

                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        To affirm the answer to the initially quoted text, if not clear yet, in my opinion yes, it was God's will that they sin more than they had already done, so they can become worthy of saving by his plan, his plan being sacrificing his only son for the sins of many. When Jesus said it is fulfilled, that's what he meant in my opinion. He fulfilled God's plan to redeem all sinners, dead or alive by his innocent blood.. By his death, we were free of the guilt of the sins of the flesh and were free to follow our spirit. God wrote the law into our hearts instead, gave us our spirit back, our inner voice, our moral compass, and by the Grace of God, if we follow the spirit and not the desires of the flesh, the "worthy" ones will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit into their hearts to guide them into the ways of achieving eternal life.
                        Actually, men never lost their ability to be righteous, but they did lack knowledge of God. Increasing their knowledge of what is right helps them to repent in a world dominated by those who choose to sin and to live independent of God. And that's why we have the Gospel, to bring the good news of eternal repentance to all the world--not just Israel.

                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        Yes, I agree. However, we should now be even more determined than ever to love and believe in God and follow his ways. As we are now freed from the burden of the consequences of the law of the sin, and are given a choice, be ruled by the Spirit, or be ruled by the flesh. Whoever is still ruled by the desires of the flesh is not by God. They don't have God's law written in their hearts,their ways will lead to death. Only those that sacrifice the flesh in the name of God, and live like Jesus Christ did, will achieve eternal life, by the Grace of God.
                        God's Law was written on Israel's hearts in the OT era, as well as in the NT era. One day God will eliminate the dominance of the wicked majority so that all Israel can have God's Law imprinted on their hearts.

                        Don't think that the OT was that much different from the NT--God doesn't change. It's just that eternal salvation had to take place in time. Before Christ came redemption had to come in a temporary format. After Christ we have the eternal template.

                        Men were not bound to sin under the Law, any more than they are bound to sin in the NT era. We all are bound to a Sin Nature, but never were men unable to obey God's word--they just couldn't dispose of the Sin Nature and its condemnation. We would be eternally condemned if we did not have access to redemption. But men in both testaments did have access to redemption--it was just temporary under the Old Covenant.

                        The bondage to sin we are set free of in Christ is the same freedom Israel experienced under the Law when they were forgiven through the use of animal sacrifices. It's just that now that we have eternal redemption we have the spirit of adoption, and experience eternal salvation--not temporary salvation. Our liberation is more than a liberation from the bondage of sin--it is a liberation from the condemnation of sin. We can do right and we aren't confined to rituals that never completely free us from condemnation.

                        Both the Law and the Gospel of Christ are spiritual in essence, and they both promote liberation from the bondage of sin. It's just that in the Gospel of Christ we are *forever* liberated from the bondage of keeping the Law and never completely experiencing final release from the condemnation of sin. We now have the spirit of sonship.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          He's The Son. God in flesh. The Son made propitiation by being just like his Father in Spirit. God being grieved
                          by sin, yet not immediately judging or condemning us. That's exactly what Jesus showed, when mankind looked at him with contempt. They said, "I love God"....and looked at him with hatred. Sinned against him. Treated him shamefully. Wanted him to die.

                          This is what is symbolized in the OT offering. The Lamb, the willing follower of God his Shepherd, his perfect reflection on earth, had the sin of this world inflicted on him and chose not to do what anyone one of us would have done, which is kill our adversaries.

                          When Paul says, "And the law is not of faith", he's only referring to those who see the law in a self righteous manner, to those "that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? Thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
                          Rom.2:21-23

                          I never said God expected them to fail, or they couldn't do what God told them to do. God expected and told them to repent and those who believed God did.

                          Originally posted by randyk,
                          Paul's argument is that even atonement under the Law was temporary, and kept Israel in God's good graces only for a time, until they sinned again. That is the argument in Hebrews, that sacrifices had to be offered in perpetuity because the Sin Nature in Israel kept them in need of forgiveness.
                          That's not what Paul and Hebrews is saying.

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                          • #14
                            God's Law was written on Israel's hearts in the OT era, as well as in the NT era. One day God will eliminate the dominance of the wicked majority so that all Israel can have God's Law imprinted on their hearts.
                            Moses law was written on tablets, not in their hearts but God promised them he will write the law into their hearts...
                            Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
                            Hebrews 8:10 "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the LORD: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."


                            The bondage to sin we are set free of in Christ is the same freedom Israel experienced under the Law when they were forgiven through the use of animal sacrifices.
                            It was never about the sacrifices, it was never about following rituals. The Jews got it wrong. They had ears but could not hear the true Word of God.

                            Jeremiah 6:10 "To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the word of the LORD is to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure in it."

                            Romans: 1:25 "They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen."


                            Isaiah 1

                            11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

                            12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

                            13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

                            14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

                            15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

                            16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

                            17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

                            18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

                            19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

                            20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

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                            • #15
                              Brother Randy,
                              Hebrews does say the figures can never take away sins, but that's because they're not God on earth, who only can forgive sins and did without sacrifice. God did forgive the sIns of the faithful in the OT, but Hebrews says if people continue in sin (whether OT or NT), they will die without mercy Heb.10:26-29. He says it will be worse for people who kept sinning against the actual Christ.

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