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  • #46
    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
    The difference in our opinions I think is not about weather the Law of Moses is discarded or not but when and how.

    You believe that with Jesus dying on the cross the law became obsolete or "fulfilled". And the law no longer applies to us. Your time frame ends there...

    I believe that fulfilling the law means that Light was finally separated from Darkness and the door to light, light being Jesus Christ, is now opened to us. We are now on a crossroad, with two paths, the old one of darkness and sin and the new one of light and righteousness. God has given us the free will to choose where to go....
    The path of darkness is the sinner's road, subjected to the law, and which can only lead to death....
    The path to light leads to Jesus Christ, the light of God in the new Kingdom of God in which only light dwells...i.e. not one sinner will remain in there, so it is when the old law becomes obsolete...So that's my time frame in comparison to yours..
    I really don't know what you mean by my "time frame ends there?" I'm saying the Cross is the end point for the application of the Law--it doesn't end time itself!

    We both agree that the Law could not lead to life after death (eternal life) because it did not provide adequate enough sacrifices to atone for the sin nature. After all, the sin nature is a *nature,* and cannot be extinguished by animal sacrifices that only deal with specific sins, that only cover a period of time. They never were meant to deal with sin on an *eternal basis.*

    You are using the Law and Christ as expressed in the metaphor of Darkness and Light. And it isn't a perfect comparison in our discussion, because I'm talking about the benefits of the Law, as are you. So Darkness does not befit the Law--David called it his "lamp."

    But in regard to achieving eternal life, you're right--the Law is no better than Darkness--I just don't prefer to call it that, in case there is misunderstanding about the benefit of the Law. After all, God legitimately worked with Israel even before Christ came. Christ was, in a pre-incarnate sense, working in and through the Law of Moses! He simply still needed to come and physically die, in order to cap off the period of the Law with *final atonement.*

    In order to provide eternal atonement, the Law had to be disposed of, since it represented Man's inability to be redeemed apart from the sacrifice of Christ. To go back to the Law is to turn again to self-efforts, by our own flawed record, to obtain salvation. And no matter how hard we try, how sincere we are, and how much of a saint we were, we could not obtain eternal life under the Law of Moses, because its purpose was to reveal to Israel their human flaws--their sin nature. This kept them out of heaven, unless Christ came to provide a better form of atonement--one that lasts forever.

    So the Law was not Darkness, but it did have to die to give birth to a system that provides lasting atonement. 1st temporary atonement, and finally, lasting atonement. 1st the Law, as a contract, and then Christ--the eternal light, as you would call him.

    The misunderstanding is that when Christ came morality ceased. But morality did not cease with the death of the Law. Morality exists in God's Word, which is independent of the Law, even though it also gave Israel the Law.

    The Word of God extends beyond the Law of Moses to provide a final redemption, the atonement of Christ. And in Christ is the same morality that God has always required of Man, that we be like God in our nature. We do not need the Law of Moses to do this, although it directs us towards it. Once the Law had successfully pointed Israel to Christ, it was no longer needed, except as a reminder of what Christ was to become and was to accomplish.

    And Christian morality, as indicated in the Law, will always be of value to us as a teacher--not as the contract of Law, but only as a representation of a new and eternal form of righteousness. The Law is merely an arrow pointing to Christ's eternal character beyond the condemnation of the Law. Our righteousness today is based on Christ, and not on the contract of the Law. It just contains the same Divine morality.

    Comment


    • #47
      You need to distinguish between Morality and Law--not the same thing.
      I will leave that to you to explain to me, like to a child, preferably with citing the Bible as well. I have already made my point why I disagree at this time from several different angles.

      On the point of rules and regulations, rituals, sacrifices, which are the works of the law but not the law itself, I agree but this is not new, it gets clear even back in the Old Testament. God despised that as it was not what God wanted.The Jews got it wrong then, thinking the sacrifices will atone them from their wicked doings. The Christians seem to be getting it wrong now too, thinking Jesus's sacrifice will atone them of any sin...repeating the same story...

      Colossians 3:5-7 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.

      Galatians 5:19-24 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

      I don't think I can say much further. It says against whom there is no law...., those like Jesus, who are dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, greed, sensuality, jealousy, outbursts of anger, drunkenness, etc...,..Are we? Nope....not many of us anyway...

      Once the Contract failed, you can rip the agreement up and throw it away.
      I obviously disagree and I explained why already from different angles. I would prefer if you can quote Jesus's words on that. To me, if one is dead to immorality, like Jesus was, then yes, the law for them becomes obsolete, irrelevant....That's not the case for majority of us though, so the "wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience", those that don't live like Jesus did.

      As I mentioned in my previous post, I see the time frame of when the Law will pass away differently from you. See the below quotes, law will not pass until heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth will pass away just about the time of the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God.

      Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Revelation 21:1-27 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


      Most of us still produce the fruit of the flesh, not the fruit of the spirit. We have not yet "crucified the flesh", so the law to those of us still applies. It didn't to Jesus, because he didn't live by the flesh. He was/is perfect and to him the law no longer applied.

      Note the time frame is not a point in time. It is personal for everyone, some will start living like Jesus earlier than others, some will never do...but with every single day less and less time is left...because the times of the events of revelation are coming soon. Point is, those that don't change and don't produce the fruit of the spirit by then, but keep getting ruled by the desires of the flesh, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. It is clear as day to me.

      Comment


      • #48
        I really don't know what you mean by my "time frame ends there?
        I elaborate further in the above post actually.

        I said that you believe that with Jesus dying on the cross(1st century AD or so) the law became obsolete or "fulfilled" and no longer applies. Correct me if I am wrong? I think you believe in a certain point in time, which is when Jesus died physically, in the past, 2000 years ago...when He said it is finished...What you are saying implies you believe one has been forgiven their sins since then. I think it is conditional and it is really important to understand we still can't sin and will be judged for every sin...See below what I think.

        I said(in different words) that I believe the law(the one you call moral law) still applies to all that keep walking in the flesh, and has been, before and after Jesus, for the last 2000 years as well, and will apply until times of Revelation when the final judgement will discard the sinners, those which, although they were given time to change, refused to follow the example of Jesus, and were instead consumed by fleshly desires like passion, greed,etc...

        The difference to me, in terms of before Jesus's death and after Jesus's death is that Jesus was the perfect example how to live in the spirit and not the flesh, hence how the law can become obsolete for each one of us, by following his example. We didn't know that before. But note, this point of time, the law becoming obsolete, is different for each one of us. It is in 5th century for some,11th century for others, 21st century for us, depending on when each lived. The condition for the law to become obsolete for each one of us, is, in each our lifetimes, to abolish the fleshly desires, and live in the spirit, producing the fruit of the spirit, which are kindness, goodness, patience, peace, self control, etc...Only on this terms would one reach the Kingdom of Heaven and be given eternal life. Those that keep sinning despite being told by God not to, for thousands of years, for them the law still applies and the outcome is the wrath of God. Their sins will not be forgiven and will never be....

        Once the Law had successfully pointed Israel to Christ, it was no longer needed, except as a reminder of what Christ was to become and was to accomplish.
        You are using "had" and "was". To you the law becoming obsolete is an event of the past, even before you were born. To me, as I tried to explain in several posts, is a continuous event starting since Jesus died, the end point being Judgement Day. Then the patience of God will expire and anyone that lived until then, and did not hear the Word of God and didn't live the ways of Jesus Christ, will not be saved. Each one of us, while we live in our lifetime, must change their ways and live like Jesus did, or else the law applies, we're being judged by the law and the wrath of God will come for those of us.

        So, technically the law will not pass/become obsolete, until heaven and earth pass away...as per my quotes above. It is a continuous event still happening now and will be happening in the future until Judgement day. It is not a point of time in the past that is finished, that is applicable to all without exception. No, the law has become/will become obsolete only to some and not others, it is a conditional and individual event.

        I'm saying the Cross is the end point for the application of the Law
        I completely disagree, as per the last few posts.

        In essence, we are agreeing on many points but disagreeing on two essential points: the time of the event,i.e. when the law becomes obsolete; and how the low becomes obsolete, i.e. by Jesus dying on the cross or by walking in the footsteps of Jesus.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          I will leave that to you to explain to me, like to a child, preferably with citing the Bible as well. I have already made my point why I disagree at this time from several different angles.
          Morality is a moral code determined by a particular law within the human conscience. As such, written laws are not always a matter of human morality, since unjust laws are written sometimes, and at other times, the requirements may be limited to time and circumstance. In our case, the Law of Moses had conditions which, if broken, render the matter of keeping the Law no longer a moral issue.

          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          On the point of rules and regulations, rituals, sacrifices, which are the works of the law but not the law itself, I agree but this is not new, it gets clear even back in the Old Testament. God despised that as it was not what God wanted.The Jews got it wrong then, thinking the sacrifices will atone them from their wicked doings. The Christians seem to be getting it wrong now too, thinking Jesus's sacrifice will atone them of any sin...repeating the same story...
          There are a couple of issues mixed in here. 1st, I would agree with you that atoning rituals and the atonement of Christ itself will not cleanse of sin if these appeals are made to God insincerely or without genuine repentance. But there is more here than that.

          I wouldn't agree with you that the ritual works of the Law are *not* the Law itself. The Law clearly consisted of rituals which, if kept properly, were very effective in matters of pleasing God and forgiveness. Clearly, God did not despise legal ritual--He is the one who required it!

          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          Colossians 3:5-7 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
          Yes, this Scripture indicates that Christ's death removed not just the physical observance of the Law, but also the Law itself. Moral virtue, however, exists outside of the Law of Moses, as well. Morality existed before the Law, and it exists after the Law, in the New Covenant.

          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          Galatians 5:19-24 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

          I don't think I can say much further. It says against whom there is no law...., those like Jesus, who are dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, greed, sensuality, jealousy, outbursts of anger, drunkenness, etc...,..Are we? Nope....not many of us anyway...
          If the Law of Moses does not apply to Jesus, then it doesn't apply to us either. And that's not because we are perfect with or without Christ. Rather, it's because we live in Christ spiritually and God does not hold our flaws against us, since we have chosen to live in obedience to Christ.

          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          I obviously disagree and I explained why already from different angles. I would prefer if you can quote Jesus's words on that. To me, if one is dead to immorality, like Jesus was, then yes, the law for them becomes obsolete, irrelevant....That's not the case for majority of us though, so the "wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience", those that don't live like Jesus did.
          Jesus' contract with us does not read: "You must be dead to immorality in the sense that no sin is left in you." Rather, it reads that we have died to the nature of the flesh such that we've chosen to live by the Spirit of Christ, and not by the sins of the flesh.

          I gave you a boatload of verses proving that Christ died to put the contract of the Law to death, on our behalf. It was his acknowledgement that Israel had broken the contract, and that it was up to him alone whether he would renew a contract with them on a different basis. He did make a new covenant, but he made it not just with the Jews who would accept him, but also with us who also accept him but are not Jews.

          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          As I mentioned in my previous post, I see the time frame of when the Law will pass away differently from you. See the below quotes, law will not pass until heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth will pass away just about the time of the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God.

          Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


          2 points. 1) the Law was fulfilled on the cross, meaning that the Law was abolished at that point. 2) the Law was an eternal condemnation of the human nature, barring access to Christ's redemption. As such, this testimony of the Law will last until the temporal universe passes away, revealing our immortality.


          Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
          Revelation 21:1-27 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

          Most of us still produce the fruit of the flesh, not the fruit of the spirit. We have not yet "crucified the flesh", so the law to those of us still applies. It didn't to Jesus, because he didn't live by the flesh. He was/is perfect and to him the law no longer applied.

          Note the time frame is not a point in time. It is personal for everyone, some will start living like Jesus earlier than others, some will never do...but with every single day less and less time is left...because the times of the events of revelation are coming soon. Point is, those that don't change and don't produce the fruit of the spirit by then, but keep getting ruled by the desires of the flesh, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. It is clear as day to me.
          The point in time is not our conversion, but rather, the cross. That's when the Law was abolished. It is certainly not when Christians become perfect in their present bodies--that will never happen. The Law was abolished in Christ, a perfect man. And he had every right to establish a new covenant with man, by forgiving those who had broken the 1st covenant of Law.

          Comment


          • #50
            I wouldn't agree with you that the ritual works of the Law are *not* the Law itself. The Law clearly consisted of rituals which, if kept properly, were very effective in matters of pleasing God and forgiveness. Clearly, God did not despise legal ritual--He is the one who required it!
            God gave them rituals but He required them to keep the law. They didn't keep the law but kept the rituals....I provided several quotes from the OT in previous posts where God said he despised the rituals of men.

            The point in time is not our conversion, but rather, the cross. That's when the Law was abolished. It is certainly not when Christians become perfect in their present bodies--that will never happen. The Law was abolished in Christ, a perfect man. And he had every right to establish a new covenant with man, by forgiving those who had broken the 1st covenant of Law.
            I think we should discuss the time and how. Your interpretation implies that that it's o.k. to sin here and there because in our present fleshly bodies we can't become perfect, and God will forgive us, even though God said "I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".

            God knows our limitations better than we do. He gave us an example what is possible, through his son Jesus Christ, that our current fleshly bodies are not a limitation to live like Jesus did. God proved it possible by sending Jesus in the flesh to show us. We just refuse to believe it because we love our fleshly bodies more than we believe in God, Jesus or eternal life.

            I agree on a point of yours, of us not being perfect, and I believe that it is never too late in one's life time to start living by the Word of God. In that sense, our past sins may be forgiven, but this is up to God.

            And he had every right to establish a new covenant with man, by forgiving those who had broken the 1st covenant of Law
            I am not disputing what God can do. I am disputing what we should be doing.

            To me the main difference between the old and new Covenant, is in the how. In the OT people thought they were living by the Word of God through useless works of sacrifices, circumcision, rituals, etc..., where what God indeed wanted was the same as now, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc..
            The old Covenant was written on tablets with God's own finger, and let to the interpretation of men who couldn't manage to grasp the Word of God. The new Covenant is written in the hearts and minds of people by God and we no longer have excuses...

            exists outside of the Law of Moses
            There is no such thing as the "Law of Moses". I noted that before. Moses didn't even write it himself. God did. From the below, which Commandments do you think were abolished?
            The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
            1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
            2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
            3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
            4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
            5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
            6 “You shall not murder.
            7 “You shall not commit adultery.
            8 “You shall not steal.
            9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
            10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

            Comment


            • #51
              A question to you on sacrifices, what did God suggest as a sacrifice to atone for intentional murder, anywhere in the OT or NT?
              For what reasons did God suggest sacrifices? Check what God suggested in the OT to those that trespassed the 10 Commandments intentionally.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                God gave them rituals but He required them to keep the law. They didn't keep the law but kept the rituals....I provided several quotes from the OT in previous posts where God said he despised the rituals of men.
                This is your problem--you're not understanding how the language is working in this matter. God was saying something with respect to a specific occasion, and not for all occasions! On the occasion where Israel completely failed to keep the Law, and as you said, kept rituals externally and failed internally, God was saying He despised those kinds of rituals, ie rituals that were purely perfunctory, and not sincere. It would be absurd for God to ask Israel to keep rituals if He didn't think they could ever be properly kept!

                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                I think we should discuss the time and how. Your interpretation implies that that it's o.k. to sin here and there because in our present fleshly bodies we can't become perfect, and God will forgive us, even though God said "I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".
                Again, you are having a language problem, which I see frequently on this particular subject. It is a problem with semantics, and it's difficult to parse the details. When God says we must, by nature, sin, He is not recommending that we sin--He is just saying it is impossible that we not sin, since we have a sin nature.

                There is a big difference between being victimized by inheriting a sin nature and willfully indulging that sin nature. In the one case, we are flawed and overcoming, and in the other we are defying God and disinterested in overcoming the sin nature.

                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                God knows our limitations better than we do. He gave us an example what is possible, through his son Jesus Christ, that our current fleshly bodies are not a limitation to live like Jesus did. God proved it possible by sending Jesus in the flesh to show us. We just refuse to believe it because we love our fleshly bodies more than we believe in God, Jesus or eternal life.
                "We," referring to who? All the Christians I know accept Christ with the intention of following through and walking with the Lord and carrying their cross. They leave the world behind and follow Him! Granted, some fail, but the point is, whether under the Law or under Grace, God's systems were always capable of being followed successfully. The fact Israel, as a nation, fell, in no way meant that individuals had to fail! And if individuals can succeed, God can remake entire nations!

                I've long said, "Nations rise and nations fall." We shouldn't judge the failure of their nations as their incapacity to ever succeed!

                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                I agree on a point of yours, of us not being perfect, and I believe that it is never too late in one's life time to start living by the Word of God. In that sense, our past sins may be forgiven, but this is up to God.
                That's what Grace, as a system, is all about. Yet even the Law had prescriptions to enable the same. It was, however, a return to a rigid system of Law, containing rituals. We no longer are committed to those rituals, since Christ provided atonement already for us.

                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                I am not disputing what God can do. I am disputing what we should be doing.

                To me the main difference between the old and new Covenant, is in the how. In the OT people thought they were living by the Word of God through useless works of sacrifices, circumcision, rituals, etc..., where what God indeed wanted was the same as now, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc..
                The old Covenant was written on tablets with God's own finger, and let to the interpretation of men who couldn't manage to grasp the Word of God. The new Covenant is written in the hearts and minds of people by God and we no longer have excuses...
                As I said, it's a language issue, I believe. Please go back and read what I've already said on this?

                Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                There is no such thing as the "Law of Moses". I noted that before. Moses didn't even write it himself. God did. From the below, which Commandments do you think were abolished?
                You're still, I believe, making the same mistake, thinking that an example of moral commands in one religious system is the same in another religious system. You just fail to understand that! I'll try once again.

                Let's say Mormonism contains a specifically Mormon covenant requiring that men "not commit murder." The fact real Christians have the same moral command in a *different covenant* does not mean that we are retaining the Mormon covenant as well!

                It is the same with the Law of Moses. The new Christian Covenant has the same moral command to "not kill," but it does not retain the Covenant of Law. It is an entirely different covenant and different system in the New Testament. Same morality, but given in a different context. Changing covenants does not require a change in morality.

                The term "Law of Moses" has nothing to do with denying God initially gave the Law. He gave the Law *through Moses.* It is a perfectly acceptable term to describe what Covenant we're referring to.

                If you can't understand our different arguments here, there's no sense in continuing. Either you can't intellectually decipher our different arguments, or you simply wish to continue in disagreement. Either way, there's no sense going on indefinitely.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Either you can't intellectually decipher our different arguments, or you simply wish to continue in disagreement.
                  Let's not start with the personal abuses? Not only I deciphered the differences, I laid them out for you to see, in the hope you can see my point. With the little intellect I have, I can still sense you can never see anyone else's point of view, but yours.

                  As I said, it's a language issue, I believe.
                  This is your problem--you're not understanding how the language is working in this matter.
                  I can read the bible in 3 languages in entirely different alphabets. Language is not my issue. Understanding what the bible says from human point of view is therefore not something I have a problem with. Whether I have the Spirit of God to guide me, only God knows.

                  Please go back and read what I've already said on this?
                  I went back and read the bible on what you said, hence still in disagreement with what you're saying.

                  You're still, I believe, making the same mistake, thinking that an example of moral commands in one religious system is the same in another religious system.
                  Nope, it was not me. It was you talking along those lines. See page 2, post #23

                  Originally posted by randyk View Post

                  You're exactly right. The 10 Commandments, as part of the obsolete Old Covenant, are no longer valid, either on stone or on the heart. The principle of not murdering is separate from the 10 Commandments, and is a principle that could be applied to either Christianity or Islam. But as we know, Islam would interpret "Do not murder" very differently from how Christians do!
                  What God says in relation to your statements above. If you think I am stupid, read God's words.

                  Isaiah
                  1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

                  Jeremiah
                  31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                  Romans:
                  13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
                  13:10 "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
                  John 1
                  5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
                  Matthew:
                  5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
                  5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
                  19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
                  19:18 "Which ones?" he inquired. Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
                  19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                    Let's not start with the personal abuses? Not only I deciphered the differences, I laid them out for you to see, in the hope you can see my point. With the little intellect I have, I can still sense you can never see anyone else's point of view, but yours.
                    I didn't call you "slow"--I'm assuming you're smart. In that case, the 2nd option would apply to you--you have no interest in the argument. I say that because you do not represent my position in your arguments--only your own. If you are to debate *my position,* you have to acknowledge what I'm arguing, and you're not doing that.

                    I respect you. But I'm not going to respect you if you fail to acknowledge my argument in pushing forward your own. In that case, you're just using me to proselytize with respect to your own position. You're not debating fairly. Please show some respect for me and for my position by paying heed to what I'm saying, rather than just declaring your own doctrine.

                    I'm not going to just keep on rehashing the same old arguments. Go back and actually address the issues as I've laid them out, rather than just keep repeating your same arguments as if they haven't yet been challenged. They have.

                    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                    I can read the bible in 3 languages in entirely different alphabets. Language is not my issue. Understanding what the bible says from human point of view is therefore not something I have a problem with. Whether I have the Spirit of God to guide me, only God knows.
                    I think languages are wonderful. I'm not even bilingual, but it is more critical to be "led by the Spirit." That does not come automatically, if we have pride. So let's treat this like a gift of God, and not like it's something inborn, right? We need to humble ourselves, and pray, and pursue and pursue. And then, we need to add righteousness to our pursuit, right?

                    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                    I went back and read the bible on what you said, hence still in disagreement with what you're saying.
                    So rather than give me your credentials and your accomplishments, why don't you just address the issues. I like hearing your credentials and accomplishments too, but not to the exclusion of the arguments!

                    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                    Nope, it was not me. It was you talking along those lines. See page 2, post #23
                    Still, you're not giving the arguments. Yes, I said what I thought you were doing, and you give me no answer at all. You have continued to argue that abandonment of the Law of Moses is equal to the abandonment of God's requirement that we "not murder," for example. That is exactly what you were doing, repeatedly. And I've repeatedly told you that the same moral value in different covenants does not mean one has to keep the same covenant in order to live by the same morality.

                    I'm giving the arguments, and you argue nothing. I do the work, and you do nothing. That's why I'm done arguing unless you actually acknowledge what the arguments or, or at least demonstrate you understand them. I don't need to hear how many languages you can read the Bible in. I need to know you comprehend the arguments. I don't want to argue senselessly with someone who cares nothing for the arguments at all, who just wants to put out his views, dogmatically.

                    Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                    What God says in relation to your statements above. If you think I am stupid, read God's words.

                    Isaiah
                    1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

                    Jeremiah
                    31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                    Romans:
                    13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
                    13:10 "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
                    John 1
                    5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
                    Matthew:
                    5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
                    5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
                    19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
                    19:18 "Which ones?" he inquired. Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
                    19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
                    I don't think you're stupid--you just fail to recognize, or perhaps read carefully, the arguments. You repeat the same claims without acknowledging what I've said about them. Bye.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      randy

                      This is my final say on the matter. After that I shall restrain myself from further posting. Apologies if any of my postings have upset you. I only speak my mind.

                      Your theory on God's law, the Commandments being abolished with Christ dying just doesn't hold true in my own opinion. And it is nothing but a theory because it falls apart when using any Bible verses and the Word of God.
                      You are combining the works of the Law with God's Law into the one waste bucket and trying to throw them all in the drain under the same pretext. However, we have been told in the Bible on numerous occasions to keep the Commandments. The Commandments remain. What we got from Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, an elaboration, additional explanation what the law is about, LOVE i.e. "love is the fulfillment of the law"

                      As for the works of the law, they were abolished hundreds of years before Christ....Jesus was not sacrificed for that. Jesus died so "he might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil..."

                      Hebrews
                      2:14 Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh, He also likewise took part in the same things, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil
                      John
                      19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

                      If you adjust your time frame of events, you may understand my point of view. You do not have to agree with it. God will judge each of us for our own beliefs, based on our own abilities.

                      On the works of the law in Isaiah, 800 years before Christ:

                      Isaiah
                      11:1 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
                      63:3 “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig’s blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
                      63:4 I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.”



                      New testament on the Commandments.

                      Mark
                      10:19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not defraud, you shall honor your father and mother.'"
                      Romans:
                      13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
                      13:10 "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
                      John 1
                      5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
                      Matthew:
                      5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
                      5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
                      19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
                      19:18 "Which ones?" he inquired. Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
                      19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

                      Psalm
                      111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

                      A question to you on sacrifices, what did God suggest as a sacrifice to atone for intentional murder, anywhere in the OT or NT?
                      Since you ignored my question, for reasons I do not know, I shall answer it for you. God never suggested that a sacrifice of any kind can atone for intentional murder,nowhere in the Bible. One can't atone for spilling the blood of an innocent human being, by spilling the blood of another innocent being. This is not a small point. You take whatever you wish from it, on your own head. "And his commands are not burdensome", none of them.

                      You have continued to argue that abandonment of the Law of Moses is equal to the abandonment of God's requirement that we "not murder," for example. That is exactly what you were doing, repeatedly. And I've repeatedly told you that the same moral value in different covenants does not mean one has to keep the same covenant in order to live by the same morality.
                      Randy, with all my due respect, all I tried to say is that the Commandments, the Law of God is still valid.The works of the law, what I understand you call the "Law of Moses", these God abolished minimum 800 years before Christ, during Old Testament times. You've been trying to tell me that this instead happened on the Cross.

                      God's law is a set of commandments, orders, the transgression of which carry the wrath of God. Morality is a set of personal and social standards established within a society. It differs from society to society. It is human made, not made by God. Read your own arguments, post #23 I quoted above. You claim the commandments were abolished, both on stone and in the hearts of people but they remain as moral values? This is what I disagree with. It is not that I do not understand what you trying to say. I am just wondering if you do understand how what you say sounds to me?

                      I am not trying to push my views. I repeated myself because I thought you were not getting what I am trying to say. I understand I am not alone in that view. All the best to you. None of my posts had any personal intent but we, as humans always tend to take everything personally.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        And Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9
                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        It is not "Moses Law", it is God's Law, given by God's words, same God all along.

                        Matthew:
                        5:17 "[I]Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
                        For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)
                        Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                        ... It was God's way of writing the law in our hearts and minds and freeing us from the consequence of sin, which are death by the way.. Which law do you think God talks about?
                        This is a no-brainer. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by faith?

                        43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes is justified by faith.

                        44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit was poured upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10

                        So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gal 3

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
                          For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)


                          Yes. Chirst is Love, Light and Life. Through faith and love for God and his only Son Jesus Christ we will see the Light and receive eternal Life.

                          Post #43 and #47

                          My point is, that whoever seeks the light of Jesus Christ, through whom the Light of God shines, is under the New Law of Jesus Christ
                          Whoever still walks in the darkness and refuse to seek the Light of God, will be judged by the Law of God, law of Moses, the law for the darkness within us, a law for sinners...
                          The law was never abolished, but it was fulfilled. What that means is that when one has a sincere heart, cleansed of the guilty conscience, one has cast the darkness down and now walks within the Light, who is Jesus Christ.The law is still there, still valid to those that still walk in the darkness, within whom the darkness still dwells....
                          I don't think I can say much further. It says against whom there is no law...., those like Jesus, who are dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, greed, sensuality, jealousy, outbursts of anger, drunkenness, etc...,..Are we? Nope....not many of us anyway...

                          So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gal 3


                          Post #28

                          And I meant to ask where in the Bible does it say sacrifices make one righteous same as Abraham was? As per Abraham's story, Abraham's complete faith in God led to God crediting him with righteousness. At the same time, as a result of his faith, he naturally did the works that please God. Note, it is not the other way round, it was not the works that led to righteousness but by having faith, the good works follow.
                          Post #55
                          63:3 “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig’s blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                            The law was never abolished, but it was fulfilled. What that means is that when one has a sincere heart, cleansed of the guilty conscience,
                            God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith...we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are. Acts 15:8-11

                            Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                            one has cast the darkness down and now walks within the Light, who is Jesus Christ.
                            How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

                            Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                            The law is still there, still valid to those that still walk in the darkness, within whom the darkness still dwells....

                            63:3.... These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
                            There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

                            These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and self-discipline, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. Col 2:23
                            Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                            It says against whom there is no law...., those like Jesus, who are dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, greed, sensuality, jealousy, outbursts of anger, drunkenness, etc...,..Are we? Nope....not many of us anyway...
                            Now the deeds of the flesh are evident.. just as I have forewarned you, that those [who rely on the flesh] will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:18-21

                            Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Col 3:24
                            Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander...if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. 1 Peter 2:1-4

                            Anyone who runs amok and does not continue in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              This is my final say on the matter. After that I shall restrain myself from further posting. Apologies if any of my postings have upset you. I only speak my mind.
                              No, you don't personally offend me. I just think the doctrine offends God, and feel convicted to treat it as such. You otherwise seem like a very nice person. I appreciate your cordiality here.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              Your theory on God's law, the Commandments being abolished with Christ dying just doesn't hold true in my own opinion. And it is nothing but a theory because it falls apart when using any Bible verses and the Word of God.
                              I gave you a boatload of references to the contrary. I don't need to repeat them. They're already on record.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              You are combining the works of the Law with God's Law into the one waste bucket and trying to throw them all in the drain under the same pretext. However, we have been told in the Bible on numerous occasions to keep the Commandments. The Commandments remain. What we got from Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, an elaboration, additional explanation what the law is about, LOVE i.e. "love is the fulfillment of the law"
                              Not true. Jesus didn't just elaborate on the Law--he declared what he will do on the cross as the *fulfillment of the Law,* that is, the end purpose of the Law, which is a New Covenant--not the Old Covenant.

                              Jer 31.“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
                              “when I will make a new covenant
                              with the people of Israel
                              and with the people of Judah.
                              32It will not be like the covenant
                              I made with their ancestors

                              when I took them by the hand
                              to lead them out of Egypt,
                              because they broke my covenant,
                              though I was a husband to them,”
                              declares the Lord.


                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              As for the works of the law, they were abolished hundreds of years before Christ....Jesus was not sacrificed for that. Jesus died so "he might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil..."
                              God did in a sense abolish the Covenant of the Law hundreds of years before Christ, when He "divorced" Israel for their apostasy and for their spiritual adultery in following foreign gods. But as we all know, God accepted a semblance of observance of the Law during the Babylonian Captivity, and indicated He would restore them *under the Covenant of the Law,* and He did!

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              Hebrews
                              2:14 Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh, He also likewise took part in the same things, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil
                              John
                              19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

                              If you adjust your time frame of events, you may understand my point of view. You do not have to agree with it. God will judge each of us for our own beliefs, based on our own abilities.
                              Your time frame--100s of years before Christ, abolishing the "works of the Law," does not address the continuing covenant of the Law, which was only abolished at the cross of Christ. That was a *covenant* that was abolished, and not merely empty works committed by irreligious, apostate people!

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              New testament on the Commandments.

                              Mark
                              10:19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not defraud, you shall honor your father and mother.'"
                              Romans:
                              13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
                              13:10 "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
                              John 1
                              5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
                              Matthew:
                              5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
                              5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
                              19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
                              19:18 "Which ones?" he inquired. Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
                              19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

                              Psalm
                              111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.
                              You see, this is why you think I'm angry, when I say you're just repeating your talking points without acknowledging my rebuttal. Here it is once again--the repeat quote from Jesus that all of the requirements of the Law are still in effect, when you know I already answered that, and you continue to fail to acknowledge it!

                              I told you quite clearly and repeatedly that Jesus said this *while the Law was still in effect* and *before he had gone to the cross.* It was *at the cross* that Jesus suspended and abrogated the Covenant of the Law, and not while Jesus was engaged in his earthly ministry, when the Law was still in effect! Until you can acknowledge this, we are not progressing in our discussion. Hence, you think I'm angry, when really, I'm not--I just don't feel like you're being an honest debater. Answer the point, and we can move on for any length of time you wish.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              Since you ignored my question, for reasons I do not know, I shall answer it for you. God never suggested that a sacrifice of any kind can atone for intentional murder,nowhere in the Bible. One can't atone for spilling the blood of an innocent human being, by spilling the blood of another innocent being. This is not a small point. You take whatever you wish from it, on your own head. "And his commands are not burdensome", none of them.
                              I did not ignore your point--I just sometimes miss answering some questions--I try to answer them all. In this case, I didn't feel we were having an honest conversation regardless. You can remedy that simply by responding to my point above.

                              I will answer your point here, now that you've repeated it. What did God suggest as a sacrifice to atone for intentional murder, anywhere in the OT or NT?

                              The answer is, God didn't ask for sacrifices of atonement for *intentional sins,* meaning sins that were designed to oppose God or defy God. Deliberate rebellion must be repented of 1st before any sacrifice of atonement will be accepted. It is the "intentional" part that would prevent someone from being atoned for. That people can be forgiven for murder under the Law we know is true, because there were cities of refuge people could flee to in this case.

                              On the Day of Atonement, once a year, atonement was made for all Israel, whether they had committed murder or not. It would apply to all, assuming they are approaching God in good faith, sincere in their repentance, and willing to acknowledge that they were not wanting to intentionally revolt against God and oppose His laws.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              Randy, with all my due respect, all I tried to say is that the Commandments, the Law of God is still valid.The works of the law, what I understand you call the "Law of Moses", these God abolished minimum 800 years before Christ, during Old Testament times. You've been trying to tell me that this instead happened on the Cross.
                              Yes, you're wrongly separating the Works of the Law from the Covenant of the Law, when they can only be viewed as one. You cannot say, for example, that the Works of the Law are "abolished." The word "abolish" suggests the termination of a contract, whereas Works are only rejected as illegitimate because they are not being properly done. If the Works of the Law are rejected, it is because Israel is not following the Contract properly. But until Israel goes completely apostate, and defies the entire Covenant, the Contract remains in place. It was not abolished by God until the entire nation committed apostasy.

                              Even then, the Contract was reinstated, and in fact continued in some respects. Even in Captivity, Israel remained somewhat observant of the Covenant of the Law--even without temple and a working priesthood, and even without sacrifices or rituals of atonement.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              God's law is a set of commandments, orders, the transgression of which carry the wrath of God. Morality is a set of personal and social standards established within a society. It differs from society to society. It is human made, not made by God. Read your own arguments, post #23 I quoted above. You claim the commandments were abolished, both on stone and in the hearts of people but they remain as moral values? This is what I disagree with. It is not that I do not understand what you trying to say. I am just wondering if you do understand how what you say sounds to me?
                              Words mean what they mean *in context.* In context I'm using the sense of "morality" as "God's requirements for human behavior." God has always required that men behave as children of God, acting in His image and after His likeness. When the Law was introduced to Israel, it behooved that particular nation to follow the contract given specifically by God to them, because that would be in keeping of acting as children of God. It was unnecessary for other nations to do this, who had not received this Law of Moses.

                              When Christ died on the cross, it signaled, yet again, that Israel had failed to keep their end of the agreement of the Contract of the Law. Therefore, once again, God divorced Israel and annulled the Covenant of the Law. But this time, it did not continue to be kept even in part, nor was it designed to be reinstated. It perished forever, because the New Covenant of Christ replaced it. One Covenant was intended to be temporary, not removing forever the guilt of the Sin Nature. But the other was designed to provide eternal cover for our Sin Nature, and resurrection into new perfect bodies.

                              Originally posted by Snazzy View Post
                              I am not trying to push my views. I repeated myself because I thought you were not getting what I am trying to say. I understand I am not alone in that view. All the best to you. None of my posts had any personal intent but we, as humans always tend to take everything personally.
                              I've had no problem understanding your points, and I don't mind you repeating them if I'm not clear enough about them. I just disagree with your points, and am trying to explain why. My only problem with you is that in discussing our biblical differences, you fail to acknowledge certain critical points I've had to make repeatedly.

                              For example, I've told you that the orthodox teaching of the Church is that there are 2 distinct Covenants, one abolished and a new one fulfilling and replacing the earlier one. The 1st one only had a temporary purpose, and the book of Hebrews makes that plain, I think.

                              When you keep referring to what Jesus said about needing to keep the commandments of the Law you do not acknowledge that he was speaking *before the cross,* recognizing that the cross is the point of demarcation between when the Law had to be kept and when it didn't. You need to acknowledge my point that the meaning of the "fulfillment of the Law" is not the abrogation of the morality of God, which is eternal, but rather, the abrogation of the body of the Law, ie a specific document and a specific agreement that no longer applies.

                              When Jesus abandoned that Law, given only to Israel, it opened the door to a new agreement with all nations. This is what Paul teaches, and something you fail to address. Christ abolished, in his death, the "two men" in favor of just one--Christ, so that the wall of hostility, dividing Jews and Gentiles, would come down forever.

                              Our conversation can continue, without hostility, as long as you like, as long as you address the important, relevant points. I will acknowledge your points, but you must also acknowledge mine. Agreed?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Thank you Randy.

                                I promise, from my own heart and whatever is written on it, that I will read all that you wrote, consider every sentence and nuance of it, and give you the due respect, because I have had the respect towards you all throughout, in my heart. Otherwise I would have abandoned the thread.


                                Our conversation can continue, without hostility, as long as you like, as long as you address the important, relevant points. I will acknowledge your points, but you must also acknowledge mine. Agreed?
                                Absolutely Agree.

                                Comment

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