Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Psalm 69:28 - How is this request to be understood?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Discussion Psalm 69:28 - How is this request to be understood?

    Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (NKJV)

    Psalm 69:28
    Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous. (NLT)

    I am wondering how this verse is to be taken/understood considering, in my heart belief, that ALL scripture written is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, I know this will be or evolve into an OSAS/NOSAS type discussion :-)
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

  • #2
    Not sure I have dug deep enough to have a firm stand on this, but I have heard mentioned, and it seems reasonable, that the Book of Life and the Lamb's book of Life are two separate books.
    The Book of Life (or Book of the Living), is a book containing the names of every human being that has ever lived.
    It is a roll-call for humanity, and has nothing to do with eternal destiny or salvation. It is just a book of everyone.

    The Lamb's book of Life, however, is a book that only contains the names of the redeemed who belong to Christ.
    I believe it is only mentioned in Rev 21, and it only contains the redeems names.

    Or

    It could be 1 book only, and it starts with everyones names in it; but at the end of the day, at the final jugdement, only the redeemed's names remain. All of the unrepentant wicked have been removed.

    If there is a more sound view, I am all ears.
    Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
    • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
    • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
    • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
    • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
      Not sure I have dug deep enough to have a firm stand on this, but I have heard mentioned, and it seems reasonable, that the Book of Life and the Lamb's book of Life are two separate books.
      The Book of Life (or Book of the Living), is a book containing the names of every human being that has ever lived.
      It is a roll-call for humanity, and has nothing to do with eternal destiny or salvation. It is just a book of everyone.

      The Lamb's book of Life, however, is a book that only contains the names of the redeemed who belong to Christ.
      I believe it is only mentioned in Rev 21, and it only contains the redeems names.

      Or

      It could be 1 book only, and it starts with everyones names in it; but at the end of the day, at the final jugdement, only the redeemed's names remain. All of the unrepentant wicked have been removed.

      If there is a more sound view, I am all ears.
      I've always understood that there is one book. For this main reason, as far as I know, there is no scripture teaching that a name is put into the "Lambs" Book of Life (or any book). Only scriptures about names being blotted out or removed from of "a" book. Rev 3:5 is the verse that has me understanding that there is only one book but is referred to in different ways. Or was David referring to being blotted out of one of two? If so... which "one" is Jesus referring to, if there are two?

      I do believe there is only one book with every name of every person who will "ever" be born and thus, all the many threats or even a request in the Psalm's verse, concerning names being removed. Also meaning, those IN the "Book" of Life, will be saved/have eternal live with God. But only one "Book" is opened in the end, hmmm.

      Yeah, in Rev 21 the name is the "Lamb's" Book of Life, but only the righteous, based on the scriptures, remain in "a" Book. Again, I do not think there are any verses stating that those who are righteous are "put" into any book, only verses about blotting or removal.

      I also think that the Holy Spirit does not "reveal" all about the Book of Life in that Christ exclusively "owns" or uses the Book? Thus why this "one" Book is called what it is when revealed to writers of the scriptures up until John, the full revelation about that Book was given... the Book is the Lamb's Book.

      Also, concerning Jesus' threat from Rev 3:5. If a person is blotted out of "a" Book which only lists all who will be born, the threat means nothing. However, if a name blotted out of "that" Book meant no eternal life, then the threat... is a threat and HAS meaning. This way also, by persevering in that threat is a promise, their name will NOT be blotted out, if they persevere to the end of their physical lifetime.

      Brainstorming! Several years ago I was looking at this topic during a Soteriology class but neglected to gather dust after the class ended.
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #4
        It is not certain because there is not a ton of Scriptural evidence but I believe that those in the Book of Life are those who enter the Kingdom and possibly everyone is in it when they are born but removed if they reject YHWH.

        Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”


        Revelation 3:5, “He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim.”

        Exodus 32:31-33, “And Mosheh returned to יהוה and said, “Oh, these people have sinned a great sin, and have made for themselves a mighty one of gold! and now, if You would forgive their sin, but if not, please blot me out of Your book which You have written. and יהוה said to Mosheh, whoever has sinned against Me, I blot him out of My book.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Psalm 69:28 - "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous."

          Rev 3:5 - "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

          Rev 13:8 - "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

          Rev 17:8 - "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

          Rev 20:11-15 - "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

          Rev 21:27 - "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."

          Phil 4:3 - "And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

          Luke 10:20 - "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."


          These are all the passages that I could find that mention the Book of Life, or a person's name being written in Heaven (in the Book), or something similar.

          I believe that there is but one "Book of Life", and as both Rev 13:8 and Rev 21:27 say, it belongs to the Lamb. The other books opened at Judgement, I believe, are the books of our deeds during our life. I think, and there is no Biblical justification for it that I can find other than Rev 20:11-15, that each person's complete life is recorded in a "book" (or in our day we might say it is recorded as a movie). What I see is that book, and the Book of Life, are opened for each person at Judgement.

          I think it is very clear that a person's name can be removed from the Book of Life. But was the Book written before Creation, and then our name is removed when we sin, and then written back in when we are saved? Or is our name written in only when we are saved, and then can be removed if we fall back into sinfulness? These verses are not clear on this point.

          Comment


          • #6
            imo if one book, it stands ‘outside’ of time. It is a heavenly not earthly book.
            In the eternal heavenly realm, time has no meaning.

            So likely it is a book that contains the names of the redeemed.

            The blotting out part is a teaching lesson to us, to show us that while we are still living, we have the opportunity to come to repentence and be found in the book; but once at death, when time no longer binds us, the judgment is set.
            Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
            • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
            • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
            • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
            • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (NKJV)

              Psalm 69:28
              Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous. (NLT)

              I am wondering how this verse is to be taken/understood considering, in my heart belief, that ALL scripture written is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

              Yes, I know this will be or evolve into an OSAS/NOSAS type discussion :-)
              The Spirit is speaking of those who persecuted Jesus and refused to repent afterward.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (NKJV)

                Psalm 69:28
                Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous. (NLT)

                I am wondering how this verse is to be taken/understood considering, in my heart belief, that ALL scripture written is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

                Yes, I know this will be or evolve into an OSAS/NOSAS type discussion :-)
                I think the book of Life is the book of generations from the beginning.

                Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

                God said all souls are His and all the earth is His.

                Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

                Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

                Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

                They did have this Psalm though:

                Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

                I think the people were aware of this... so I don't see a problem with the Psalm's you quote. They were not taught to love or pray for their enemies as we were in Jesus.

                Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

                Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

                To me the more interesting question would be is this... were the enemies doing the will of the Father? And if you are doing God's will are you sinning against Him? These are more things I ponder.

                Because though of what Jesus taught...I pray for all souls to come to know the Lord Jesus.
                Give Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) the truth with scriptures. Jesus is Jehovah, the Aramaic to English Translation NT of Bible is clear. For a copy of it visit or send them to http://jwjesusisjehovah.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (NKJV)

                  Psalm 69:28
                  Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous. (NLT)

                  I am wondering how this verse is to be taken/understood considering, in my heart belief, that ALL scripture written is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

                  Yes, I know this will be or evolve into an OSAS/NOSAS type discussion :-)
                  Something else to also keep in mind is that to be blotted out is the same as to not be written in. It is the same thing in different words.

                  So it could mean that their names must not be written in the book of life along with the righteous.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post

                    I think the book of Life is the book of generations from the beginning.

                    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

                    God said all souls are His and all the earth is His.

                    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

                    Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

                    Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

                    They did have this Psalm though:

                    Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

                    I think the people were aware of this... so I don't see a problem with the Psalm's you quote. They were not taught to love or pray for their enemies as we were in Jesus.

                    Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

                    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

                    To me the more interesting question would be is this... were the enemies doing the will of the Father? And if you are doing God's will are you sinning against Him? These are more things I ponder.

                    Because though of what Jesus taught...I pray for all souls to come to know the Lord Jesus.
                    It's like when Josephs brothers sold him, he said,

                    But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen.50:20

                    God uses the evil intent of people for his own purpose. It doesn't mean he approved of their evil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post

                      Something else to also keep in mind is that to be blotted out is the same as to not be written in. It is the same thing in different words.

                      So it could mean that their names must not be written in the book of life along with the righteous.
                      In viewing the term blotted or erase in the original Hebrew (v28 above) or in Greek (such as Rev 3:5), in both the Hebrew language and the Greek language, the word is a "verb." This means "action" takes place. For this reason, I cannot agree with your understanding of how/what blotted out or erased from, means (that a name was never in the book). Based on the use of terms, an action takes place, I have to go with names are literally blotted/erased out of the book.

                      --
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                        It's like when Josephs brothers sold him, he said,

                        But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen.50:20

                        God uses the evil intent of people for his own purpose. It doesn't mean he approved of their evil.
                        I agree with you and great scripture!! So were his brothers doing God's will? This is God's thoughts toward us look up the meaning of the word “peace” it covers a lot.

                        Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

                        This is what God says of us: are we not being called evil?

                        Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

                        Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

                        Yet in the book of Genesis God calls all He created good this includes man too and the serpent yes?

                        Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

                        Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

                        Then there is book of Job re Satan. Read Job 1 then Job 2 repeats it.

                        Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

                        When were things changed for Job?

                        Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

                        Then there are these scriptures:

                        Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

                        Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

                        Matthew 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

                        Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

                        But Jesus prayed this:

                        John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

                        Can you understand why I said this then?

                        And if you are doing God's will are you sinning against Him? These are more things I ponder.
                        Give Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) the truth with scriptures. Jesus is Jehovah, the Aramaic to English Translation NT of Bible is clear. For a copy of it visit or send them to http://jwjesusisjehovah.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                          I agree with you and great scripture!! So were his brothers doing God's will? This is God's thoughts toward us look up the meaning of the word “peace” it covers a lot.

                          Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. “peace” it covers a lot.
                          I have read your whole thoughtful post, (I've had the same thoughts) but shortened it because there's too much to get through all at once, but if you like we can go through them a little at a time.

                          Questions concerning this subject can be answered by understanding God's knowledge of us (lol....who knows better) and his loving intent for all.

                          In Gen.37, God knew beforehand that Joseph's brothers were going to hate him for the reasons given. It's not God's will for people to hate, but it is his will to turn that to his own purpose. The greatest example of this is in what happened to our dear Savior.

                          In Jer.29, God assures us his intentions are for our welfare. The Bible says he won't let us be tempted above what we can withstand and provides a release for us. How would God know this, unless he knew us completely?

                          Even with people like Pharaoh, God knew he wouldn't repent, but he gave him enough to be able to repent. It's just that he refused to let go of his pride....(hey, I'm a King, Who does this Moses think he is?)

                          And Jesus said,

                          John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but thepublicans and the harlots believed him : and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:32
                          Also Rev.2.21.

                          So God will use the evil intents people to accomplish his own will and if people we choose not to see his goodness, he can also destroy us.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                            I have read your whole thoughtful post, (I've had the same thoughts) but shortened it because there's too much to get through all at once, but if you like we can go through them a little at a time.
                            haha glad I am not the only one with those thoughts!! Sure I would love to hear your thoughts a little at a time and would love for you to keep giving me scripture with it please.

                            Give Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) the truth with scriptures. Jesus is Jehovah, the Aramaic to English Translation NT of Bible is clear. For a copy of it visit or send them to http://jwjesusisjehovah.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                              haha glad I am not the only one with those thoughts!! Sure I would love to hear your thoughts a little at a time and would love for you to keep giving me scripture with it please.
                              Ok then. I'll post when I can, but when you read, keep in your mind the mind of Christ in you.
                              Like this,

                              O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thychildren together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under herwings, and ye would not! Mt.23:37

                              You can feel the Lord's heartache. You can feel the tears.

                              God knows the breaking point of all and it's always enough by his perfect knowledge of us to have been able to humble anyone.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X