Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Second Coming of Christ - in two phases

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Second Coming of Christ - in two phases

    1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

    New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

    and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

    Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
    And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

    John Wesley’s Notes:
    1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

    John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
    1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

    Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

    Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

    Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

    Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

    They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.

    Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Rapture
    See charts in e-sword on the Rapture and Second Coming.

    Also read:

    Twelve Reasons for the Rapture (prof. Johan Malan, South Africa)
    http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm


    2. GLORIOUS SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AFTER ARMAGEDDON

    And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44, KJV)

    Now the prophecy primarily respects the events near at hand - the destruction of Jerusalem, the period of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; (Matt 24:30, Matthew Henry Commentary)

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zec 14:4)

    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12)

    PAROUSIA: THE COMING OF CHRIST (New Nave’s Topical Bible)

    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27, KJV)

    But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:23)

    For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1Th 2:19)

    To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1Th 3:13)

    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2Th 2:1)

    For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2Pe 1:16)

    And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1Jn 2:28)

    Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Second Coming:

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Mat 16:27)

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat 25:31)

    Also read:

    The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
    http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm

    my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

    If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

    Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

  • #2
    I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:

    Matthew 24:36
    [ The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Roelof View Post
      1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

      New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

      Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

      and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

      Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
      And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.

      ----------------------------------------------------

      Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

      John Wesley’s Notes:
      1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

      John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
      1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

      Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

      Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

      1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

      Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

      Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

      They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.

      Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Rapture
      See charts in e-sword on the Rapture and Second Coming.

      Also read:

      Twelve Reasons for the Rapture (prof. Johan Malan, South Africa)
      http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm


      2. GLORIOUS SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AFTER ARMAGEDDON

      And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44, KJV)

      Now the prophecy primarily respects the events near at hand - the destruction of Jerusalem, the period of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; (Matt 24:30, Matthew Henry Commentary)

      Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zec 14:4)

      And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

      And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12)

      PAROUSIA: THE COMING OF CHRIST (New Nave’s Topical Bible)

      For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27, KJV)

      But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

      But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:23)

      For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1Th 2:19)

      To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1Th 3:13)

      For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

      Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2Th 2:1)

      For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2Pe 1:16)

      And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1Jn 2:28)

      Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Second Coming:

      For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Mat 16:27)

      When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat 25:31)

      Also read:

      The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
      http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm
      Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

      Paul
      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

      WPM

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Joe King View Post
        I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:
        Joe

        Very interesting view point, I never thought of it in that way.

        my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

        If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

        Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Joe King View Post
          I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:

          Matthew 24:36
          [ The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
          The way I see it, Jesus didn't know the day/hour while He was incarnated on earth; He did after all willingly (Phil 2) give up some of His divine qualities like omnipresence [doctrine of kenosis] when He entered space and time. I'd be surprised if the timescale was still a surprise to Him now?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by wpm View Post
            Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

            Paul
            wpm

            Please explain the bold (give links please)

            my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

            If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

            Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roelof View Post
              1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

              New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

              Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

              and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

              Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
              And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.

              ----------------------------------------------------

              Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

              John Wesley’s Notes:
              1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

              John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
              1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

              Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

              Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

              1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

              Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

              Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

              They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.


              The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
              http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engar.../Kingcomes.htm
              According to the following, Jesus says he returns after the tribulation and it is then that he sends his angels to gather the saints.

              Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
              Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
              Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

              Does he also not state that when he comes it be judgment day, judgment day according to scripture is after the tribulation since that is when he returns.

              Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
              Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
              Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
              Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
              Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

              This is what Jesus says will happen when he comes, why do we expect his return before the tribulation or before the millennium if that is not what we have been told?

              Firstfruits

              Comment


              • #8
                Roelof, perhaps you'd be good enough to show us what, if anything, in any letter of Paul's requires the Rapture to be separate from the 2nd Coming.
                ----------------------------------------------
                When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Roelof View Post
                  wpm

                  Please explain the bold (give links please)
                  Try:

                  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/es...Biblical.shtml

                  Paul
                  "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                  http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                  WPM

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roelof View Post
                    1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

                    New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

                    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

                    and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

                    Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
                    And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.

                    ----------------------------------------------------

                    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

                    John Wesley’s Notes:
                    1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

                    John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
                    1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

                    Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

                    Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

                    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

                    Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

                    Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

                    They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.
                    Why are you quoting Wesley, Barnes and Henry when none of them believed in pre-trib? It seems rather ironic that you try to give evidence for your view by quoting from people who didn't even agree with your view.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                      Roelof, perhaps you'd be good enough to show us what, if anything, in any letter of Paul's requires the Rapture to be separate from the 2nd Coming.
                      We have one Holy Bible, but with a 1 000 000 interpretations of it.
                      In my original thread I gave the view points of highly respected Study Bibles and Commentaries, as well as that of prof. Johan Malan, a local university expert.

                      If this does not fit the believes of some readers, then I can not help it.

                      I will do some more studies into the subject and report later on.

                      my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                      If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                      Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wpm View Post
                        Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

                        Paul
                        Try:

                        http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/es...Biblical.shtml

                        Paul
                        ------------------------------------

                        Paul

                        I did not create impressions, I just quoted some commentators. Who invented the Pre-Trib theory is not important to me.

                        There are more than 11 million web articles on Google for Rapture, all with different view points and opinions. Which articles one believes, is a matter of choice and belief.

                        my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                        If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                        Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wpm View Post
                          Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

                          Paul
                          If Darby invented anything, it was dispensationalism. Pre-tribulational thought does not need dispensationalism to survive, as some have misstated. Darby saw the same thing from Scripture as I did/do. The sharp distinction between Israel and their Covenants and the Church and It's Promises which is being being Built by Jesus Christ today. The rest is human construction and as such is prone to error.

                          It's the same with the topic of this thread. So many different views and ideas about Jesus' "coming" with so many who don't even understand what the word means in Scripture. That's what causes the confusion. While I agree with the OP about the two events being separate, it is not for the same reason(ing).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by IBWatching View Post
                            If Darby invented anything, it was dispensationalism. Pre-tribulational thought does not need dispensationalism to survive, as some have misstated. Darby saw the same thing from Scripture as I did/do. The sharp distinction between Israel and their Covenants and the Church and It's Promises which is being being Built by Jesus Christ today. The rest is human construction and as such is prone to error.

                            It's the same with the topic of this thread. So many different views and ideas about Jesus' "coming" with so many who don't even understand what the word means in Scripture. That's what causes the confusion. While I agree with the OP about the two events being separate, it is not for the same reason(ing).

                            Of course I disagree. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

                            Paul
                            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                            WPM

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wpm View Post
                              Of course I disagree. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

                              Paul
                              And I, of course, disagree with you.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X