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  • Does God have faith???

    I'm reading a book titled Christianity In Crisis: 21st Century by Hank Hanegraaff. It's basically a critique of the Word of Faith movement. Unfortunately I don't have it with me right now so I'll go from memory and post some quotes later.

    He quotes Kenneth Copeland and Charles Capps both saying that God created the universe using His words filled with "faith substance." Supposedly the faith substance is what gave His words power. In other words, God created everything by His word and faith.

    Now, my question is: does the Bible ever say God has faith or is required to have it? I don't recall ever hearing of such a thing.
    Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

  • #2
    Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
    I'm reading a book titled Christianity In Crisis: 21st Century by Hank Hanegraaff. It's basically a critique of the Word of Faith movement. Unfortunately I don't have it with me right now so I'll go from memory and post some quotes later.

    He quotes Kenneth Copeland and Charles Capps both saying that God created the universe using His words filled with "faith substance." Supposedly the faith substance is what gave His words power. In other words, God created everything by His word and faith.

    Now, my question is: does the Bible ever say God has faith or is required to have it? I don't recall ever hearing of such a thing.
    God is Spirit and doesn't need faith. We are physical and can only grab Spirit by faith which is also spirit.There are few any more deceived than the word of faith practitioners.

    Comment


    • #3
      Jesus is God who authors and finishes faith. He has faith. Because He has faith, He can give faith.

      Faith heals!​ ​​​​If God has no faith and does not need faith, how does He heal folks?
      Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

      Comment


      • #4
        It depends what your definition of faith is.

        Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

        According to my understanding of this definition, God would not have faith. He knows all and sees all, therefore not in need of faith.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Glorious View Post
          Jesus is God who authors and finishes faith. He has faith. Because He has faith, He can give faith.
          Where exactly in the New Testament does it say Jesus had faith? I'm not saying you're mistaken, I just can't recall any specific scriptures.

          If Jesus had faith it was in God, not a "faith-force." I've had the opportunity to read further in the book and it documents that this is exactly what Faith practitioners are taught; that is, even God Himself is subordinate to the all-powerful faith-force. The faith-force is what they worship, not God. All this is exactly what I believed and practiced when I was into metaphysics and the occult—no difference whatsoever.
          Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
            It depends what your definition of faith is.

            Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

            According to my understanding of this definition, God would not have faith. He knows all and sees all, therefore not in need of faith.
            But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20

            Foreordained. Before the foundation of the world, before God commanded, out of darkness light to shine; How was the one above called Christ going to come into the the world about to be down cast? Gal 4:4, Rom 8:3 In the figure of whom Rom 5:14 The living soul Gen 2:7?

            Two translations. Lev 17:11
            YLT for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
            DAR for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

            Is that verse speaking literally about Christ? Was the very, soul living, his very being, in the blood of him? Did he literally give his life, his being, a ransom for many?

            Did he give his very being, without hope? What hope did he have? Was it not the promise of God, who cannot lie, made before time began?

            Heb 5:7-9 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

            Because of death did the Son learn the obedience of faith.
            Did God the Father have faith his Son born of woman would be obedient unto death and did the Son of God have faith the Father would save him out of death?

            The author and perfecter of the faith.

            Hab 2:4 But the just (the Son) shall live by his (the Father) faith. Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

            Comment


            • #7
              With my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations. Psalm 89:1
              Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
              I'm reading a book titled Christianity In Crisis: 21st Century by Hank Hanegraaff. It's basically a critique of the Word of Faith movement...
              He quotes Kenneth Copeland and Charles Capps both saying that God created the universe using His words filled with "faith substance." Supposedly the faith substance is what gave His words power. In other words, God created everything by His word and faith.
              "My word shall not return to Me void, Isa 55:11 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, " Ezekiel 37:14
              Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
              Now, my question is: does the Bible ever say God has faith or is required to have it? I don't recall ever hearing of such a thing.
              When you send your Spirit, they are created; Psalm 104:30 And He established them for ever and ever—Psalm 148:5-6

              God gives life to the dead and calls things into existence; Rom 4:17

              He has given proof of this to all by raising Jesus from the dead; Rom 17:31

              21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, so that your faith and hope is in God; 1 Peter 1

              Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak; because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 2 Cor 4:13-14

              For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
              and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by pdun459 View Post

                Where exactly in the New Testament does it say Jesus had faith? I'm not saying you're mistaken, I just can't recall any specific scriptures.

                If Jesus had faith it was in God, not a "faith-force." I've had the opportunity to read further in the book and it documents that this is exactly what Faith practitioners are taught; that is, even God Himself is subordinate to the all-powerful faith-force. The faith-force is what they worship, not God. All this is exactly what I believed and practiced when I was into metaphysics and the occult—no difference whatsoever.
                I don't know what you mean by "faith force". I only know that Jesus is the author of faith. He has what He generates

                Romans 3:22 confirms that there is the faith of Jesus.

                Romans 3:22 KJV declares:
                Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

                Know that faith imputes righteousness. Without l faith, there can't be righteousness. So, the faith of God/Jesus imputes the righteousness of God/Jesus.

                There are other scriptures implying the faith of Jesus Christ.
                Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                Comment


                • #9
                  What an intereting topic.
                  I just found this forum again.
                  It was hiding behind some old sites I had in my saved file.
                  I registered here, but I don't think I ever left a footprint
                  I don't see one.
                  Anyways.. Hello

                  Does God have faith?
                  Does he have faith in us?

                  I found a passage I thought maybe it might relate:

                  God is talking to Moses:

                  Deu 31:19
                  Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel
                  For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
                  And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
                  Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

                  Heb 11:1
                  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

                  Well, I don't know if God was actually "hoping" this would happen. But he was stating a fact.
                  There is a lot of "shall's" in those verses.

                  Kind of like when Jesus says:

                  Mat 21:21
                  Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

                  There is that "shall" again.

                  (the default type size is kind of small for these old eye.. lol. I had to enlarge so I could see for myself.. )



                  Does God have faith that what He says will come to pass?
                  I believe so.

                  The question is,
                  Does he have faith in us?
                  Are we faith worthy?

                  Does God have Hope?

                  I believe every characteristic God requires from us, He himself posseses, and has parted these gifts of himself to us.

                  Thank You for giving me something to think about today
                  It looks like a nice place
                  You mind if I hang around for awhile?


                  Peace


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Glorious View Post

                    I don't know what you mean by "faith force". I only know that Jesus is the author of faith. He has what He generates
                    I agree Christ is the author of our faith. I've never really thought about the question of whether Christ Himself had faith. If He's God incarnate, does He have to have faith in Himself? Why would He need faith in Himself. As the Son, it might be said He had faith in His Father. He clearly taught us to have faith, but I'm not as clear on if He Himself needed faith.

                    In Faith theology, faith isn't what you or I may think of it as. It's a "substance," a power which God used to create the universe. This substance filled his words with power. And since we're made in God's image, we too have power—by "faith"—to create our own world, independent of God or anything else. In fact, God Himself is powerless against the force of faith, or faith-force.

                    As promised, here are few quotes regarding the Faith movement's interpretation of "faith":

                    Kenneth Copeland: "Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force. It will move things." (The Force of Faith, 1989, pg. 10)

                    Charles Capps: "Faith is the raw material, the spiritual raw material, from which things you desire are made. . .Faith is the substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words." (Changing the Seen & Shaping the Unseen, 1980, pp. 14-15)

                    Creflo Dollar: "Now, God used the faith substance to make everything that he made. . .in every one of those words they were filled with the faith substance, because words are nothing but containers."("The Just Shall Live By Faith," Changing Your World, Trinity Broadcast Network, 20 September 1998)

                    They teach that faith isn't in God or Jesus but in a tangible force which can be harness to create whatever you want.

                    Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                    Romans 3:22 confirms that there is the faith of Jesus.

                    Romans 3:22 KJV declares:
                    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
                    It's not exactly clear if this verse should be translated "of Jesus," "in Jesus" or "from Jesus." The NKJV renders it "in." I don't think there's actually a word there in the Greek: it's just "faith Jesus."
                    Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pdun459 View Post

                      I agree Christ is the author of our faith. I've never really thought about the question of whether Christ Himself had faith. If He's God incarnate, does He have to have faith in Himself? Why would He need faith in Himself. As the Son, it might be said He had faith in His Father. He clearly taught us to have faith, but I'm not as clear on if He Himself needed faith.

                      In Faith theology, faith isn't what you or I may think of it as. It's a "substance," a power which God used to create the universe. This substance filled his words with power. And since we're made in God's image, we too have power—by "faith"—to create our own world, independent of God or anything else. In fact, God Himself is powerless against the force of faith, or faith-force.

                      As promised, here are few quotes regarding the Faith movement's interpretation of "faith":

                      Kenneth Copeland: "Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force. It will move things." (The Force of Faith, 1989, pg. 10)

                      Charles Capps: "Faith is the raw material, the spiritual raw material, from which things you desire are made. . .Faith is the substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words." (Changing the Seen & Shaping the Unseen, 1980, pp. 14-15)

                      Creflo Dollar: "Now, God used the faith substance to make everything that he made. . .in every one of those words they were filled with the faith substance, because words are nothing but containers."("The Just Shall Live By Faith," Changing Your World, Trinity Broadcast Network, 20 September 1998)

                      They teach that faith isn't in God or Jesus but in a tangible force which can be harness to create whatever you want.

                      It's not exactly clear if this verse should be translated "of Jesus," "in Jesus" or "from Jesus." The NKJV renders it "in." I don't think there's actually a word there in the Greek: it's just "faith Jesus."
                      You are clearly mistaking the faith of Jesus Christ to mean trusting in Jesus Christ. It is a common mistake made by many.

                      A man can trust (as in mentally having a strong believe in) God without having the faith that Jesus authors. Trusting God originates in the man, but the faith of God originates in God, and is a gift to man.

                      That faith is a gift means it does not originate in/from man. So, there is the faith of God/Jesus that is different from a man's trust in God.

                      Hebrews 11:1 gives us the definition of faith. In the natural, faith that Jesus authors is the substance of a preparation of life called the hope.

                      In the spiritual, faith is the evidence (as in the receipt of purchase) of the same preparation of life called hope.

                      Beyond hope, there is another preparation of life called the promise. It is the earnest (token) of the fulness of life. Respectively in the natural and spiritual, grace is the sensuous and earnest of the promise.
                      Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Glorious View Post

                        You are clearly mistaking the faith of Jesus Christ to mean trusting in Jesus Christ. It is a common mistake made by many.
                        I don't think I'm mistaking anything. There's nothing to be mistaken about. As I posted above, the meaning of Romans 3:22 is entirely unclear.

                        Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut; Isaiah 22:22-24
                          Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                          I agree Christ is the author of our faith. I've never really thought about the question of whether Christ Himself had faith.
                          One might say He was very sure of Himself.

                          "I have authority to lay down my life and authority to take it up again." John 10:18

                          And having taken it up again,
                          He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest ... Heb 5

                          These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, ...
                          I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it..." Revelation 3:7-8

                          And they reported all that God had done, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. Acts 14:27

                          “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
                          I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” Revelation 22:12-17

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1 Thes 5:24: "

                            Faithfulis he

                            that calleth you, who also will doit
                            .
                            "

                            Rev 19:11: "
                            And I saw heaven opened, and behold a whitehorse; and

                            he that sat upon him
                            was called Faithful

                            and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
                            "

                            Heb 12:2 "
                            Looking unto Jesustheauthor and finisher of our
                            faith; who forthejoythat was set before him endured thecross, despising theshame, and is set down at theright hand of thethrone of God.
                            "

                            In this Hebrews 12 example I think Jesus simply believed the word completely about his being risen again from the dead after the cross that there was no doubt in his mind that it would be that way, even no doubt before he went to the cross. To me, that seems like having faith or perhaps being faith. Another way to put the fact that he believed the word is that he is the word. Another way to put that is that he knows what God the Father is communicating to him, having the same mind in the Spirit or something like that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1 Thes 5:24: "

                              Faithful is he

                              that calleth you, who also will do it
                              .


                              "

                              Rev 19:11: "
                              And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and

                              he that sat upon him
                              was called Faithful

                              and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


                              "

                              Heb 12:2 "
                              Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our
                              faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


                              "

                              In this Hebrews 12 example I think Jesus simply believed the word completely about his being risen again from the dead after the cross that there was no doubt in his mind that it would be that way, even no doubt before he went to the cross. To me, that seems like having faith or perhaps being faith. Another way to put the fact that he believed the word is that he is the word. Another way to put that is that he knows what God the Father is communicating to him, having the same mind in the Spirit or something like that.

                              Comment

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