Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pre-Pentecost Believers back to Adam. The Holy Spirit did what?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pre-Pentecost Believers back to Adam. The Holy Spirit did what?

    Originally posted by shepherdsword

    I am saying they were not born again as this is an aspect of the New Covenant. In the New covenant we are circumcised in heart. In the Old covenant actual physical circumcision was required. All of the OT saints were saved under a different covenant. There was still a promise of a new covenant yet to come:

    The promise of the New Birth:

    Jer 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lordut this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    We can see from above that the promise of the new birth was for a covenant yet to come.

    If any has not the Holy Spirit they are none of his. So none of the OT saints are saved?

  • #2
    I tend to fall into the understanding that the outpouring of the HS at Pentecost was not the first born-again event, but a massive worldwide growing in scope of the HS to gentiles en masse for the first time, bringing them out of darkness, into the same light that limited faithful Jews and very select faithful gentiles had been partaking of during OT times.

    What I have trouble accepting from them the idea that the ‘HS started at Pentecost’, because there were in the OT, men of faith, men found righteous, men who loved and followed God.

    I do not believe any of this could have occurred without the HS individually indwelling them, changing their heart, and regenerating them.
    Without the HS, no one can be drawn, can be found faithful, can do righteous works, and can please God.
    Many select individuals in the OT did this, and showed the fruits of the HS, and the results of HS regeneration in their lives.

    I have never heard anyone clearly approach this, the closest that usually attempts, is using the weak ‘the were covered not indwelt’ or they were ‘fell on’ by the HS, as if the HS was some random, visiting UPS truck.
    But many men in the OT didnt play Dr Jekelll vs Mr Hyde change-a-roos from wicked to faithful, only showing fruits of the spirit randomly and occasionally.

    Because as Jesus taught, by their fruits you know them, I have to conclude some men prior to Pentecost were indwelt by the HS, were born again (as Jesus told Nicademus he should be aware of), and did live just lives as they were regenerated and guided by the HS to do so.

    Otherwise, the notion that OT and pre-pentecost NT men could have belief, be faithful, follow God, do works of righteousness without the HS, tends to make the need for the event of Pentecost unnecessary. But it was, because it was an event of scope change and growth to a new large group of previously lost men...not an event of first beginnings to all men past.
    Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
    • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
    • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
    • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
    • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

    Comment


    • #3
      To add to my prior post, I want to include this verse:

      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

      How do we understand this verse, if we change it to read:


      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which Joshua did himself, but according to His mercy He saved Joshua, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which Daniel did himself, but according to His mercy He saved Daniel, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which Noah did himself, but according to His mercy He saved Noah, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which Abraham did himself, but according to His mercy He saved Abraham, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which John the Baptist did himself, but according to His mercy He saved John the Baptist, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
      Titus 3:5 "Not by works done in righteousness, which Peter did himself, but according to His mercy He saved Peter, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

      etc...
      If Titus 3:5 is truth, how is it not applied equally to these pre-Pentecost men of faith? Was not their works of righteousness also not of their ownselves, but rather of the HS?
      Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
      • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
      • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
      • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
      • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Slug1

        I asked... SHOW me, where "I" follow the "Law." You made the accusation... all I ask is, where/how?
        You need to prove by explaining to a 4-year-old you can grasp the concept of law and grace.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
          I tend to fall into the understanding that the outpouring of the HS at Pentecost was not the first born-again event, but a massive worldwide growing in scope of the HS to gentiles en masse for the first time, bringing them out of darkness, into the same light that limited faithful Jews and very select faithful gentiles had been partaking of during OT times.

          What I have trouble accepting from them the idea that the ‘HS started at Pentecost’, because there were in the OT, men of faith, men found righteous, men who loved and followed God.

          I do not believe any of this could have occurred without the HS individually indwelling them, changing their heart, and regenerating them.
          Without the HS, no one can be drawn, can be found faithful, can do righteous works, and can please God.
          Many select individuals in the OT did this, and showed the fruits of the HS, and the results of HS regeneration in their lives.

          I have never heard anyone clearly approach this, the closest that usually attempts, is using the weak ‘the were covered not indwelt’ or they were ‘fell on’ by the HS, as if the HS was some random, visiting UPS truck.
          But many men in the OT didnt play Dr Jekelll vs Mr Hyde change-a-roos from wicked to faithful, only showing fruits of the spirit randomly and occasionally.

          Because as Jesus taught, by their fruits you know them, I have to conclude some men prior to Pentecost were indwelt by the HS, were born again (as Jesus told Nicademus he should be aware of), and did live just lives as they were regenerated and guided by the HS to do so.

          Otherwise, the notion that OT and pre-pentecost NT men could have belief, be faithful, follow God, do works of righteousness without the HS, tends to make the need for the event of Pentecost unnecessary. But it was, because it was an event of scope change and growth to a new large group of previously lost men...not an event of first beginnings to all men past.
          Very good post David this is also how I understand it.

          Comment


          • #6
            And to be clear, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am looking at things from the lens that "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God".

            The other group is making a premise as if it is fact, that Pentecost, is the line in the sand for all indwelling and regenerationative work of the Holy Spirit, for men from that timepoint foward.

            What I want to focus on, however, is the fallen state of men in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT.

            Those men....without the Holy Spirit indwelling and regenerating them...how did they bring forth good fruit?
            How were they faithful?
            How were the believers?
            How did they love the Lord?
            How did they lift of prayers and praises?
            How did they do the good works of God in their lives, without the leading of the Holy Spirit within their hearts?

            I cannot see any of these things being done of a man's own sinful heart, solely on his own initative of the flesh.

            So it the premise that the HS only began indwelling and regenerating faithful men a fallacy that should be reviewed and rejected, becase we do have examples in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT, of men who show the fruits, signs, and characteristics of specific individuals who the Holy Spirit did indwell and regenerate, throughout their entire individual lives?

            That is my thought....Pentecost was a game-changer for Gentiles to come out of the darkness in mass and in large numbers; but it was not the 'beginning' of it, for all individual human beings.

            The smaller remnant was always found on the planet in history past, where faithful men were led by the Holy Spirit to do the things of God.

            Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
            • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
            • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
            • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
            • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shepherdsword
              Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/B]
              Was this prophesy only for the new covenant or also for Israel in captivity?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                You need to prove by explaining to a 4-year-old you can grasp the concept of law and grace.
                Thank you for your challenge, however, you are accusing me of following the "Law." Where and when have I said or done something that is following, the "Law?"

                If you cannot show proof of me following the "Law," stop accusing.
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                  And to be clear, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am looking at things from the lens that "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God".

                  The other group is making a premise as if it is fact, that Pentecost, is the line in the sand for all indwelling and regenerationative work of the Holy Spirit, for men from that timepoint foward.

                  What I want to focus on, however, is the fallen state of men in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT.

                  Those men....without the Holy Spirit indwelling and regenerating them...how did they bring forth good fruit?
                  How were they faithful?
                  How were the believers?
                  How did they love the Lord?
                  How did they lift of prayers and praises?
                  How did they do the good works of God in their lives, without the leading of the Holy Spirit within their hearts?

                  I cannot see any of these things being done of a man's own sinful heart, solely on his own initative of the flesh.

                  So it the premise that the HS only began indwelling and regenerating faithful men a fallacy that should be reviewed and rejected, becase we do have examples in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT, of men who show the fruits, signs, and characteristics of specific individuals who the Holy Spirit did indwell and regenerate, throughout their entire individual lives?

                  That is my thought....Pentecost was a game-changer for Gentiles to come out of the darkness in mass and in large numbers; but it was not the 'beginning' of it, for all individual human beings.

                  The smaller remnant was always found on the planet in history past, where faithful men were led by the Holy Spirit to do the things of God.
                  Lets pursue with Gentiles during the OT times... how was Rahab found to be of faith during a time when some understand that ONLY Israel, is God's chosen?
                  --
                  Slug1--out

                  ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

                  ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                    Lets pursue with Gentiles during the OT times... how was Rahab found to be of faith during a time when some understand that ONLY Israel, is God's chosen?
                    Many became Jews through circumcision. All but one of Abraham's physical seed were foreigners.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                      Thank you for your challenge, however, you are accusing me of following the "Law." Where and when have I said or done something that is following, the "Law?"

                      If you cannot show proof of me following the "Law," stop accusing.
                      I'm sorry, but free will turns grace into law and the gospel into works.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good question.

                        I think (Dave's mind) that it is the work of the HS is not limited to Jews at all. It is a human being activity.

                        If we are honest, Seth, Noah, Abraham even...were all Gentiles.

                        Hebrews started with Eber, Abraham's grandfather, and later than that.
                        Israel started with Isaac. Israelites later than that.
                        Jew started with Judah and later than that..


                        We also have Ruth, and other Gentiles showing faith prior to Pentecost.

                        Israel had an advantage, but all people of the earth are sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God.

                        How did anyone accomplish belief, faith, good works, etc... prior to Pentecost, without the HS regenerating them, and indwelling their hearts to lead them in righteousness?

                        The Holy Spirit came in power at Pentecost, to empower believers to share the good news of Christ to the gentile nations, so that en mass they would start to come out of darkness.

                        But does that mean as some say, that the HS didn't and couldn't indwell and lead and direct some specific believers prior to Pentecost?

                        Really, that makes no sense.

                        How did Simeon believe at the time of Jesus' birth?
                        How did Peter and Andrew and John believe and remain faithful during the Lord's 3 year ministry?
                        How did any of them do good work and do anything righteous without the Holy Spirit individually guiding and dwelling the works and thoughts of their hearts?


                        Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                        • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
                        • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
                        • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                        • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          And to be clear, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am looking at things from the lens that "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God".

                          The other group is making a premise as if it is fact, that Pentecost, is the line in the sand for all indwelling and regenerationative work of the Holy Spirit, for men from that timepoint foward.

                          What I want to focus on, however, is the fallen state of men in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT.

                          Those men....without the Holy Spirit indwelling and regenerating them...how did they bring forth good fruit?
                          How were they faithful?
                          How were the believers?
                          How did they love the Lord?
                          How did they lift of prayers and praises?
                          How did they do the good works of God in their lives, without the leading of the Holy Spirit within their hearts?

                          I cannot see any of these things being done of a man's own sinful heart, solely on his own initative of the flesh.

                          So it the premise that the HS only began indwelling and regenerating faithful men a fallacy that should be reviewed and rejected, becase we do have examples in the OT and pre-Pentecost NT, of men who show the fruits, signs, and characteristics of specific individuals who the Holy Spirit did indwell and regenerate, throughout their entire individual lives?

                          That is my thought....Pentecost was a game-changer for Gentiles to come out of the darkness in mass and in large numbers; but it was not the 'beginning' of it, for all individual human beings.

                          The smaller remnant was always found on the planet in history past, where faithful men were led by the Holy Spirit to do the things of God.
                          There were no gentile believers at Pentecost. They were not participants in the gospel until much later(Cornelius)
                          Show an instance of the new birth in the OT. There were OT examples of the Spirit anointing men. The issue is that this wasn't the new birth. We can see that here:

                          Jn 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

                          Now we know that John's statement wasn't about the Holy Spirit being upon men in the classic sense. That happened numerous times in the OT. So what does he mean? A separate Pentecostal event? It couldn't be because the Spirit had been placed on men before (ie. Moses and the seventy ) Therefore it must be referring to the new birth. Now, are there any instances of the new birth under the old covenant? The two closest possibilities are these:

                          Saul:

                          1 Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

                          The problem is that the Spirit only came upon him. (heb "aaleykaa") It did not indwell him. This is something that can only happen at the new birth.

                          Let's look at the other possibility.

                          David:

                          Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

                          This cannot refer to the new birth either.He is only asking that his own spirit be renewed and cleansed.How we know?
                          By the next verse:

                          Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

                          He implores God to not cast him away or take away His Holy Spirit...like he did Saul. Therefore, this cannot refer to the New Birth either.

                          Can you find any more possibilities? If so let's discuss them.










                          Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am copying these points from another website, because they are best asking the same questions about the HS work of regeneration (indwelling/born again) as I could attempt to do:
                            1. The New Testament states that the unregenerate man perceives the things of God as foolishness and does not receive them (1 Cor. 2:14a),

                              whereas the Old Testament believer is said to delight in the Law of the Lord (Psa. 1:2), to meditate in it day and night, to hide God’s Word in his heart (Psa. 119:11), to love God’s Law (Psa. 119:97), to take God’s testimonies as an heritage forever (Psa. 119:111), to rejoice in God’s Word (Psa. 119:162), and to eat God’s words (Jer. 15:16).
                            2. The New Testament states that the unregenerate man’s understanding is darkened and characterized by ignorance, and that he cannot know the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14b),

                              whereas the Old Testament believer is said to have light and understanding through the entrance of God’s words (Psa. 119:130), to be enlightened and made wise by the testimony of the Lord (Psa. 19:7-8), and to understand all things (Pro. 28:5).
                            3. The New Testament states that the unregenerate man is an enemy of God (Rom. 5:10) and at enmity with God (Rom. 8:7a),

                              whereas the Old Testament believer is spoken of as loving the Lord (Psa. 116:1), blessing the Lord, and praising Him (Psa. 34:1), magnifying and exalting the Lord (Psa. 34:3). And Abraham is called the friend of God (Isa. 41:8; Jas. 2:23).
                            4. The New Testament states that the unregenerate man is not subject to the Law of God, and is not able to be (Rom. 8:7),

                              whereas the Old Testament believer is spoken of as keeping God’s Law, seeking His precepts, inclining his heart to perform God’s statutes (Psa. 119:44-45), loving God’s commandments above gold, and esteeming His precepts to be right (Psa. 119:112-13).
                            5. The New Testament states that the unregenerate man cannot please God (Rom. 8:8),

                              whereas the Old Testament believer is spoken of as pleasing the Lord (Pro. 16:7) and through faith pleasing God (Heb. 11:5-8,20-23,31-33).6 Frankly, there is nothing in the Old or New Testament which says that regeneration is a new covenant distinctive. There is no real basis for denying regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to a saved individual of any dispensation.

                            I personally, cannot answer these questions, if I say that the HS's role of indwelling and regenerating human beings only began at Pentecost.

                            However,

                            If I believe that the HS's role of indwelling and regenerating human beings has always existed, (albeit more specific and individualistic), then these questions seem to have reasonable answers.

                            Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                            • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
                            • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
                            • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                            • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              I'm sorry, but free will turns grace into law and the gospel into works.
                              Support ?
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

                              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X