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Pre-Pentecost Believers back to Adam. The Holy Spirit did what?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post

    I could barely follow the post for all of the (Invalid Server Response Please try again) injections...not sure what is causing that.
    I was getting so frustrated that by pasting in that injection each time... alleviated the frustration :-)

    I read all your post but I will focus on some parts that I'm moved to address.

    There were times in the OT, where God was not dealing with 'a nation'....so I don't see that being a dividing line between them and us in regards to the H.S. working.
    The H.S. is interested in the heats of human beings, no?
    If nation is something you really want to drive as a stake in the group, then let's look at the people in the O.T. before the nation existed. When do we even determine that? Moses? Jacob? Not anyone before that at least. But I would still say the H.S. works in the lives of human beings, not in groups and not in governments, as His focus and intent. (althrough their could be random exceptions in the providence of God).

    All that said, what about the pink elephant in the room that noone is addressing. You at least mentioned it, but then went onward, not really addressing it.
    This ^^^ I do want to get back too but it is the next verse, I'll focus for my response.

    [*]I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
    The other verses have been touched on (I think) and since this is the one that is part of where I wanted to add to the discussion, here it is.

    If this was the ONLY verse in the Bible... what would it mean? The reason I ask this is because there are OTHER scriptures, that "IF" they were the only verse, the meaning would COUNTER the meaning of the verse you posted.

    Here is my reasoning to say this. If mankind had NO evidence of God, this is what I believe you are saying the verse means. -That man CANNOT "reason" out the existence of God and thus, will NEVER be able to understand God exists, because if man could reason out that "God" is real, then they are placed into a position of choice to either reject Him (refusing understanding) or accepting (to understand)?-

    Am I close to what you want that verse to mean? If not, please clarify what you understand the 1 Cor 2:14 verse to mean.

    I'll stop here because I don't want a long post. Wait... forgot this part:

    And then find anyone in the OT who is not been regenerated? How can those natural men be receiving the things of God rather than the expected foolishness, and not knowing God, as above?
    OT regeneration? I can't find any. Justified... MANY! OT, the Holy Spirit "fell" on believers = justified. NT, the Holy Spirit "indwells" believers. = regenerated.

    Since I raised Rahab, I'll continue. She and all the other dwellers in Jericho were JUST as natural as all the Israelis. ALL, both the people in Jericho and all of Israel, HAD evidence of God. Choice had to be made, reject or accept.

    My final point... any who reject, as the verse states, they can't understand but the verse does NOT say, they can't accept. So those who DO accept (chose to believe, like Rahab)... what then?
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #47
      The entire 'definition' I find of 'fall upon' seems to be made up, outside of scripture; and done so in a way, to force a distinction between what 'fall upon' or somtimes 'cover' means, verses' indewelt or regenerated.

      I am not really trying to get into the symantics of the word choice.
      I am not certain we can fully acsertain the definitions to begin with, because neither the OT scriptures define fall upon or cover; nor do the NT differentiate between fall or cover and indwell or regenerate.

      All of these, are external reasonings based on views.

      I am trying to go beyond these word definitions, not provided in the verses themselves; and focus on the fruits of the people themselves.

      Look at what the OT believers did.
      Can we even call an OT human being a 'believer' if they were not indwelt or regenerated?
      Can we even call an OT human being 'faithful' or a 'servant of God' if they were not indwelt or regenerated?

      As Jesus said in Matthew 7, long before Pentecost, by their fruits they are known.

      What were some of the fruits of OT and NT human beings.
      Were they the same?

      I still haven't seen anyone broach the topic I raised, as to why we can find all 7 fruits of the Spirit examples, in people of the O.T.

      If they are showing the fruits of the Spirit, doesn't that necessitate that they are being indwelt and regenerated by the H.S.? If not, how do they from a fleshly, sinful nature, on their own accord, produce fruits of the Spirit?

      Try looking at this from a human to human perspective.

      We know we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. (That applies equally to OT or NT human beings).
      We know we are all saved eternally based upon the finished work of Christ and Christ alone (That applies equally to OT and NT human beings).

      What it seems like you guys are saying above, is that the function of the H.S. to indwell and fill human beings (although we see exceptions in John the Baptist and the 12 disciples), could not occur to other pre-Pentecost human beings (although it did for at least 12 of these people).

      What I am not seeing anyone focus in on, is the characteristics of a spirit lead human being producing spiritual fruit of the H.S. that we find the same in both Testaments in examples.
      More obviously after Pentecost, and expected....but I still am not seeing that this didn't occur in some examples in some Pre-Pentecost human beings.

      How can any human being who is not being lead by the H.S. produce good fruits that are pleasing unto God?





      Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
      • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
      • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
      • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
      • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
        The entire 'definition' I find of 'fall upon' seems to be made up, outside of scripture; and done so in a way, to force a distinction between what 'fall upon' or somtimes 'cover' means, verses' indewelt or regenerated.

        I am not really trying to get into the symantics of the word choice.
        I am not certain we can fully acsertain the definitions to begin with, because neither the OT scriptures define fall upon or cover; nor do the NT differentiate between fall or cover and indwell or regenerate.

        All of these, are external reasonings based on views.

        I am trying to go beyond these word definitions, not provided in the verses themselves; and focus on the fruits of the people themselves.

        Look at what the OT believers did.
        Can we even call an OT human being a 'believer' if they were not indwelt or regenerated?
        Can we even call an OT human being 'faithful' or a 'servant of God' if they were not indwelt or regenerated?

        As Jesus said in Matthew 7, long before Pentecost, by their fruits they are known.

        What were some of the fruits of OT and NT human beings.
        Were they the same?

        I still haven't seen anyone broach the topic I raised, as to why we can find all 7 fruits of the Spirit examples, in people of the O.T.

        If they are showing the fruits of the Spirit, doesn't that necessitate that they are being indwelt and regenerated by the H.S.? If not, how do they from a fleshly, sinful nature, on their own accord, produce fruits of the Spirit?

        Try looking at this from a human to human perspective.

        We know we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. (That applies equally to OT or NT human beings).
        We know we are all saved eternally based upon the finished work of Christ and Christ alone (That applies equally to OT and NT human beings).

        What it seems like you guys are saying above, is that the function of the H.S. to indwell and fill human beings (although we see exceptions in John the Baptist and the 12 disciples), could not occur to other pre-Pentecost human beings (although it did for at least 12 of these people).

        What I am not seeing anyone focus in on, is the characteristics of a spirit lead human being producing spiritual fruit of the H.S. that we find the same in both Testaments in examples.
        More obviously after Pentecost, and expected....but I still am not seeing that this didn't occur in some examples in some Pre-Pentecost human beings.

        How can any human being who is not being lead by the H.S. produce good fruits that are pleasing unto God?




        By faith is the answer to most of all you ask :-)

        Galatians 3:11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”
        This is a great verse for the context in understanding what grace and faith does. Some Bible's even ref that verse back to Habakkuk 2.4, so we can't say faith leading to salvation, is only for NT believers. Those who exercised faith, have LIFE after they believe in God both OT and NT times. How can we say this concerning "life" for both OT believers and NT believers? The answer is because of GRACE. Because of grace we can "believe" God and this is because of faith. Both grace and faith existed before creation and all mankind has to do is exercise them to make a choice... to believe or not to believe. All of mankind has an entire lifetime (physical) to make a choice.

        Those who make the choice to believe in God by faith, God then works in them, upon them, through them, etc. The means and extent of how, does seem different between OT and NT believers. However, the produce of this work God does = all the "fruit" produced both during OT and NT times (even the present and into the future), is OF God.

        Yes, the Holy Spirit is fully involved during both OT and NT times as well... why believers can do the impossible.

        Romans 4 is a great lesson concerning all this as well.


        --
        Slug1--out

        ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

          By faith is the answer to most of all you ask :-)

          Galatians 3:11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”
          This is a great verse for the context in understanding what grace and faith does. Some Bible's even ref that verse back to Habakkuk 2.4, so we can't say faith leading to salvation, is only for NT believers. Those who exercised faith, have LIFE after they believe in God both OT and NT times. How can we say this concerning "life" for both OT believers and NT believers? The answer is because of GRACE. Because of grace we can "believe" God and this is because of faith. Both grace and faith existed before creation and all mankind has to do is exercise them to make a choice... to believe or not to believe. All of mankind has an entire lifetime (physical) to make a choice.

          Those who make the choice to believe in God by faith, God then works in them, upon them, through them, etc. The produce of this work God does = all the "fruit" produced both during OT and NT times (even the present and into the future).

          Yes, the Holy Spirit is fully involved during both OT and NT times as well... why believers can do the impossible.

          Romans 4 is a great lesson concerning all this as well.


          THIS!!

          Great explanation Ken, of what I am trying to articulate.

          Each person, individual human being, either has a relationship, is led by and directed by the Holy Spirit through faith, to produce good works to the glory of God, and it is God's grace that He freely gives to those who love Him.. That is why when Jesus told Nicodemus he was a master of the scriptures, but didn't know this, Jesus was saying to Nicodemus, he 'should have known' this, long before Pentecost.

          I believe it is doctrine, that is the root of this dicotomy and friction here, based on endtime beliefs.
          The endtime beliefs that there has to be a different destiny between two peoples of God.
          The enditme beliefs that God handles people groups differently at different times.
          The endtime beliefs that things cannot overlap or vary from pre-determined hypothesis.
          All of this grabs Pentecost, and makes it into something that it was never intended to be, nor should have been.

          When we look at things individualistically, at the individual human being level; birthdate, birthplace, race, ethnicity, endtime view, etc....are all irrelevant issues, that are raised up by some groups, as if they are the prime issues.

          What is the prime issue, is that from Adam forward, sin has plagued every man.
          What is the prime issue, is that from Adam forward, sin has a cure and an antidote.
          What is the prime issue, is that Jesus Christ is the only way, truth, and life for every human being.
          What is the prime issue, is that it is by grace through faith, not of works lest any man shall boast.
          What is the prime issue, is that without the leading, directing, and guiding of the Holy Spirit in the heart of any man, no man can desire to seek and follow God, much less bear the fruits of righteousness.
          What is the prime issue, is that spanning all human history, there has always been a remnant of the people of God who by grace through faith, have been lead to follow the Lord all the days of their lives, and have done so, and have given the Lord the glory for the workings in their lives, and this could never have occurred without the individual leading of the Holy Spirit in them.

          The New Covenant imo, was partaken of by every OT saint who was led by the Spirit, as it was of the promised Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, that they had their hope and trust in; never in the blood of bulls or goats. Never in the law of Moses. Always in the individual faith of the believer, world without end.

          Psalms 34:4 CEV
          "I asked the Lord for help, and he saved me from all my fears.Keep your eyes on the Lord! You will shine like the sun and never blush with shame.I was a nobody, but I prayed, and the Lord saved me from all my troubles. If you honor the Lord, his angel will protect you. Discover for yourself that the Lord is kind. Come to him for protection, and you will be glad.Honor the Lord! You are his special people. No one who honors the Lord will ever be in need. if you trust the Lord, you will never miss out on anything good.Come, my children, listen as I teach you to respect the Lord.Do you want to live and enjoy a long life?Then don’t say cruel things and don’t tell lies. Do good instead of evil and try to live at peace.If you obey the Lord, he will watch over you and answer your prayers.When his people pray for help, he listens and rescues them from their troubles.The Lord is there to rescue who are discouraged and have given up hope.The Lord’s people may suffer a lot, but he will always bring them safely through."

          Psalms 143:9 KJV
          Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me. Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake
          Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
          • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
          • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
          • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
          • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by David Taylor View Post

            THIS!!

            Great explanation Ken, of what I am trying to articulate.

            Each person, individual human being, either has a relationship, is led by and directed by the Holy Spirit through faith, to produce good works to the glory of God, and it is God's grace that He freely gives to those who love Him.. That is why when Jesus told Nicodemus he was a master of the scriptures, but didn't know this, Jesus was saying to Nicodemus, he 'should have known' this, long before Pentecost.

            I believe it is doctrine, that is the root of this dicotomy and friction here, based on endtime beliefs.
            The endtime beliefs that there has to be a different destiny between two peoples of God.
            The enditme beliefs that God handles people groups differently at different times.
            The endtime beliefs that things cannot overlap or vary from pre-determined hypothesis.
            All of this grabs Pentecost, and makes it into something that it was never intended to be, nor should have been.

            When we look at things individualistically, at the individual human being level; birthdate, birthplace, race, ethnicity, endtime view, etc....are all irrelevant issues, that are raised up by some groups, as if they are the prime issues.

            What is the prime issue, is that from Adam forward, sin has plagued every man.
            What is the prime issue, is that from Adam forward, sin has a cure and an antidote.
            What is the prime issue, is that Jesus Christ is the only way, truth, and life for every human being.
            What is the prime issue, is that it is by grace through faith, not of works lest any man shall boast.
            What is the prime issue, is that without the leading, directing, and guiding of the Holy Spirit in the heart of any man, no man can desire to seek and follow God, much less bear the fruits of righteousness.
            What is the prime issue, is that spanning all human history, there has always been a remnant of the people of God who by grace through faith, have been lead to follow the Lord all the days of their lives, and have done so, and have given the Lord the glory for the workings in their lives, and this could never have occurred without the individual leading of the Holy Spirit in them.

            The New Covenant imo, was partaken of by every OT saint who was led by the Spirit, as it was of the promised Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, that they had their hope and trust in; never in the blood of bulls or goats. Never in the law of Moses. Always in the individual faith of the believer, world without end.

            Psalms 34:4 CEV
            "I asked the Lord for help, and he saved me from all my fears.Keep your eyes on the Lord! You will shine like the sun and never blush with shame.I was a nobody, but I prayed, and the Lord saved me from all my troubles. If you honor the Lord, his angel will protect you. Discover for yourself that the Lord is kind. Come to him for protection, and you will be glad.Honor the Lord! You are his special people. No one who honors the Lord will ever be in need. if you trust the Lord, you will never miss out on anything good.Come, my children, listen as I teach you to respect the Lord.Do you want to live and enjoy a long life?Then don’t say cruel things and don’t tell lies. Do good instead of evil and try to live at peace.If you obey the Lord, he will watch over you and answer your prayers.When his people pray for help, he listens and rescues them from their troubles.The Lord is there to rescue who are discouraged and have given up hope.The Lord’s people may suffer a lot, but he will always bring them safely through."

            Psalms 143:9 KJV
            Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me. Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake
            Hooah!

            This has come to mind, so posting it.

            John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes[j] in Me has everlasting life

            i:
            John 6:45 M hears and has learned

            So many are trying to make this verse say: … he who has everlasting life, believes in me...

            They are changing the message of the Gospel. All one has to do is HEAR/learn of God (why we spread the message) and those who hear/learn can choose to believe or not to believe. How one hears and learns, comes in many ways. Again, since I used Rahab... she heard of the miracles, learned the miracles were because of the God of the Israeli Nation. She then chose to believe in God.

            Those who choose to believe, even after years of rejecting to believe, once the choice is to believe, they are given life (saved).
            --
            Slug1--out

            ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

            Comment


            • #51
              And those verses go perfectly, with John 6:44 one verse earlier...


              John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him:"

              (another golden nugget teaching, that was given before Pentecost)


              The Lord initiates the opportunity by drawing an individual, who then can respond, hear, and believe.

              All of this is in Rahab's case, was the Lord drawing her, and she hearing, believing and following in fath.

              And we have the final invite, for all humankind.

              Rev 22:17 "The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come"
              Rahab was thirsty, and heard, and she was one who heeded the invitation of the Spirit to come.

              Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
              • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
              • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
              • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
              • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                And those verses go perfectly, with John 6:44 one verse earlier...


                John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him:"

                (another golden nugget teaching, that was given before Pentecost)


                The Lord initiates the opportunity by drawing an individual, who then can respond, hear, and believe.

                All of this is in Rahab's case, was the Lord drawing her, and she hearing, believing and following in fath.

                And we have the final invite, for all humankind.

                Rev 22:17 "The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come"
                Rahab was thirsty, and heard, and she was one who heeded the invitation of the Spirit to come.
                To which I always have to ask, is Christ's sacrifice (done before creation), limited to/for only some of mankind or to/for all of mankind?
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • #53
                  These pre-Pentecost verses also always come to mind....

                  John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen [Noah, Abraham, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Daniel, etc] and yet have believed.

                  Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto Peter, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

                  Psalms 143:2 "for no one living is righteous before you. For the enemy has pursued my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me sit in darkness like those long dead. Therefore my spirit faints within me; my heart within me is appalled. I remember the days of old; I meditate on all that you have done; I ponder the work of your hands. I stretch out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you like a parched land. Selah Answer me quickly, O LORD! My spirit fails! Hide not your face from me, lest I be like those who go down to the pit. Let me hear in the morning of your steadfast love, for in you I trust. Make me know the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul. Deliver me from my enemies, O LORD! I have fled to you for refuge. Teach me to do your will, for you are my God! Let your good Spirit lead me"



                  Also these nuggets from Job:

                  Job 14:1Man, who is born of woman, is short of days and full of trouble. Like a flower, he comes forth, then withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. Do You open Your eyes to one like this? Will You bring him into judgment before You? Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one!"

                  Job 25:2 “Dominion and awe belong to God; He establishes harmony in the heights of heaven. Can His troops be numbered? On whom does His light not rise? How then can a man be just before God?"

                  Job 9:2;23 "how can a person be declared innocent in God’s sight? If only there were a mediator between us, someone who could bring us together.The mediator could make God stop beating me, and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment. Then I could speak to him without fear, but I cannot do that in my own strength."

                  Job 19:23 "But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives"



                  Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                  • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
                  • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
                  • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                  • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

                  Comment

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