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Practically speaking, what does this passage mean to you?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    hi doug


    I believe When He said He never knew them that He meant He never recognized them as His Sheep that He said He knew and said He died for Jn 10 14 15

    14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    I agree with you. Jesus is telling them that they never were His sheep, even though they believed in Him, did great things for Him, and did miracles in His name. He never knew them. Why? Because they did not OBEY the Father. The key to that passage is not that they believed or not, but that they did not obey. Because as John 7:21 says, only those who are obedient to the Father will enter the Kingdom.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
      You said earlier that you don't think a non-believer would confess. But now you say these people confessed Jesus, but don't believe???
      I stopped here so I can make myself more clear.

      A person who does not want to acknowledge Jesus is the Christ, will never confess Christ is their Lord = no belief, no confession, not known by Jesus This is whom I referred to as will never confess.

      A person who has done what you refer to as "mental" acknowledgement of Christ, will confess the Lord = no belief, confesses Jesus, not known by Jesus. This is whom I referred to in the response you just questioned.

      Sorry for the misunderstanding. Is this difference understood now?

      Now, the verse from Romans is about those who DO believe and who DO confess. The Matthew verse(s) are about those who do NOT believe but DO confess. Meaning, you can't use these two sets of scriptures to divide each other because they illuminate two separate examples in their lessons.

      If I was to suggest scripture concerning those who will never "want" to acknowledge Christ, I will suggest the Romans 1 verses. Such people described in those verse will not confess.
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

        I agree with you. Jesus is telling them that they never were His sheep, even though they believed in Him, did great things for Him, and did miracles in His name. He never knew them. Why? Because they did not OBEY the Father. The key to that passage is not that they believed or not, but that they did not obey. Because as John 7:21 says, only those who are obedient to the Father will enter the Kingdom.
        I believe He never knew them because they weren't His Chosen or Sheep Jn 10:26 . If they would have been, they would have heard His voice and followed Him !

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

          That question is totally irrelevant, because Scripture says nothing about calling your loved ones at any time with regard to salvation.

          Let's read what the verse says, not what you want it to say based on your preconception.

          Rom 10:9-10 - "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and [if you] believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [then] you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

          This is a conditional statement. IF you do this, THEN I will do that, God says. Now, IF you don't do this, then I am not bound to do that, is also inferred.

          So IF you confess AND IF you believe THEN you will be saved. If you do not believe, or if you do not confess, then you will not be saved.
          Because, verse 10 says, your belief leads to righteousness, and your confession leads to salvation.

          This passage is not about the results of salvation. It is a mandate for (some of) the things that lead to salvation.
          And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. Jer 24:7
          And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezek 11:19
          Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

          When and how does that come about?

          Do you or we have anything to do with that coming about?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
            I stopped here so I can make myself more clear.

            A person who does not want to acknowledge Jesus is the Christ, will never confess Christ is their Lord = no belief, no confession, not known by Jesus This is whom I referred to as will never confess.

            A person who has done what you refer to as "mental" acknowledgement of Christ, will confess the Lord = no belief, confesses Jesus, not known by Jesus. This is whom I referred to in the response you just questioned.

            Sorry for the misunderstanding. Is this difference understood now?

            Now, the verse from Romans is about those who DO believe and who DO confess. The Matthew verse(s) are about those who do NOT believe but DO confess. Meaning, you can't use these two sets of scriptures to divide each other because they illuminate two separate examples in their lessons.

            If I was to suggest scripture concerning those who will never "want" to acknowledge Christ, I will suggest the Romans 1 verses. Such people described in those verse will not confess.
            You mistake the situation in Matt 7. These people did believe. They thought they were saved. They did works and wonders in Jesus' name. But what does the verse say was the reason they were not saved? Not that they did not believe. Read it closer. What does it say very clearly? "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." These people believe and call out "Lord, Lord", but they don't "DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER". That is what keeps them from salvation, not lack of belief.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by percho View Post
              And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. Jer 24:7
              And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezek 11:19
              Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

              When and how does that come about?

              Do you or we have anything to do with that coming about?
              Absolutely we do.

              We don't deserve it. We don't earn it. We don't pay the price for it. We are enemies of God, yet He still sent His Son, and His Son paid that price even though He did not owe it.
              Yet, He does set several conditions upon our reception of the benefit of that payment. What are those conditions you might ask?
              Well, one that comes after salvation is received is our willingness to forgive (Matt 6:14-15, Matt 18:34-35). But that is a topic for another thread.

              There are several that LEAD TO salvation. Salvation occurs when the Holy Spirit takes action to forgive our sins through the power of the Blood of Christ. Scripture says He only takes that action when we have done certain things. Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-14 tell us exactly when that moment occurs.

              We must Believe. This one is the one mentioned most often, and is the only one upon which all Christians agree. Which is a sad statement because it is the easiest and least costly of them.
              We must Confess the name of Jesus (Matt 10:32).
              We must Repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 2 Pet 3:9). Most Christians agree these must occur before salvation is received, although some believe they are results of salvation contrary to what Scripture says.
              We must be Baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).

              These are all physical acts that Scripture says lead to the reception of salvation. Just as Naaman was only "saved" / cured when he had done all that was commanded of him, so we are saved only when we have done all that is commanded of us.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post

                You mistake the situation in Matt 7. These people did believe. They thought they were saved. They did works and wonders in Jesus' name.
                "They" said they did works in Jesus' name? If Jesus said they were doing works and wonders, then I'd agree with ya. But the verses show us that "they" say. False prophets (these days even), "say" they are doing works and wonders in Jesus' name... are they really? The answer is NO, they are not doing anything of God and NOR where the people in Matthew 7.

                I will even say these verses are "about" false prophets and false teachers. Have you ever listened to a "real" false prophet. I have and their speak is all about "I." So, for me... when I read in those verses the "we," did this and that... same as I hear false prophets and teachers speak today.

                A person who is a "believer" speaks differently. If the example in those verses was, "you" did miracles through us, "you" spoke through us, and "you" provided the authority to cast out demons... then, this would reveal they were believers.

                But the verses reveal they are not believers because "they" speak about what THEY did, not what God did through them.
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                  Eph 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

                  Please don't just quote other passages. What does this passage mean to you in your own words?

                  Thank you.
                  Escaping the darkness is not something I can accomplish. I must be rescued from the darkness, and thank God he is doing something for me that I can't do for myself. The process involves hearing and believing the gospel, and that Gospel message didn't come from my own culture; it came directly from God himself, related to us by his apostles and prophets.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    doug

                    We don't deserve it. We don't earn it. We don't pay the price for it. We are enemies of God, yet He still sent His Son, and His Son paid that price even though He did not owe it.
                    Yet, He does set several conditions upon our reception of the benefit of that payment.
                    I dont think thats correct. Christ paid the price and that effected reconciliation. Rom 5 10

                    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                    These believers Paul says were reconciled [legally saved and accepted into favor] even while they were enemies/unbelievers. So they had received an application of the benefit of Christs atoning blood while still in unbelief, so it was unconditional, save for the conditions Christ met for them !

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:9
                      Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                      doug

                      I dont think thats correct. Christ paid the price and that effected reconciliation. Rom 5 10

                      For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                      These believers Paul says were reconciled [legally saved and accepted into favor] even while they were enemies/unbelievers. So they had received an application of the benefit of Christs atoning blood while still in unbelief, so it was unconditional, save for the conditions Christ met for them !
                      14Do not be conformed to the desires which governed you in your ignorance before you knew the requirements and transforming power of the good news regarding salvation....
                      19Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead... 1 Peter 1:14-23

                      Declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead,
                      Jesus Christ our Lord; 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience of faith ... Rom 1

                      —We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-5

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
                        God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:9

                        14Do not be conformed to the desires which governed you in your ignorance before you knew the requirements and transforming power of the good news regarding salvation....
                        19Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead... 1 Peter 1:14-23

                        Declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead,
                        Jesus Christ our Lord; 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience of faith ... Rom 1

                        —We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-5
                        Huh? Are you still with me?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                          Huh? Are you still with me?
                          Not even close. We agreed to disagree from the start.

                          For what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
                          “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”. 2 Cor 6

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            "They" said they did works in Jesus' name? If Jesus said they were doing works and wonders, then I'd agree with ya. But the verses show us that "they" say. False prophets (these days even), "say" they are doing works and wonders in Jesus' name... are they really? The answer is NO, they are not doing anything of God and NOR where the people in Matthew 7.

                            I will even say these verses are "about" false prophets and false teachers. Have you ever listened to a "real" false prophet. I have and their speak is all about "I." So, for me... when I read in those verses the "we," did this and that... same as I hear false prophets and teachers speak today.

                            A person who is a "believer" speaks differently. If the example in those verses was, "you" did miracles through us, "you" spoke through us, and "you" provided the authority to cast out demons... then, this would reveal they were believers.

                            But the verses reveal they are not believers because "they" speak about what THEY did, not what God did through them.
                            I get what you are saying here. The previous verses were talking about false teachers, and this is a continuation of that thought. However, the continual theme of this entire section of Scripture, from v. 7 down to v 27, is about what we DO. And I will not dispute that most of what we do in obedience to God comes after salvation is received. But as I have said, and as Scripture teaches over and over again, there are a few things that man must DO that come before salvation is received; as conditions upon which salvation is received. They are spelled out very clearly. They do not "earn" salvation, but the reception of salvation is conditional upon the doing of these things.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                              doug



                              I dont think thats correct. Christ paid the price and that effected reconciliation. Rom 5 10

                              10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                              These believers Paul says were reconciled [legally saved and accepted into favor] even while they were enemies/unbelievers. So they had received an application of the benefit of Christs atoning blood while still in unbelief, so it was unconditional, save for the conditions Christ met for them !
                              Not so. The price was paid while we/they were sinners and enemies of God. But the benefit was not received until we obeyed the Gospel. Remember, God doesn't want anyone to be lost (John 3:16), so if the price paid was applied without response from us, there would be no one lost. Yet Jesus says that the majority will be lost. That necessitates a response from us to receive the benefit of the blessing that was paid for by Jesus' death.

                              Now the only question is: what is the response from us that is required.
                              Is it simply belief, sitting in my seat in worship service listening to the minister preach, and I give mental assent to the message, and God saves me at that point?
                              Or does Scripture say that we have to take a few physical acts that lead to our reception of the gift?
                              Clearly there are things that must be done physically. Conditional statements like Rom 10:9-10 indicate that both belief and the action of confessing the name of Jesus are both required to receive salvation. Another conditional statement is in Acts 2:38. Another is in Acts 3:19. And there are many others.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I hope randyk doesn't mind me borrowing his post from his thread "the work of Christ alone".

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                I have been, for many years, a Predestinarian, or Calvinist--with a caveat. I do believe in free will. So in some sense you may rightly believe my view is at least partly synergism.

                                But let me put this in my own words. Confusing one language with another is often the cause of adversarial theologies. When I refer to the "exclusive Work of Christ," I'm talking about redemption, or the paying of a price to grant us eternal life. We could never pay that price. Only Christ could. Christ had to bring the righteousness down from heaven that grants men eternal life. Nobody here on earth can achieve that, since we've inherited a sin nature that is disallowed from having eternal life.

                                But if we talk about how we obtain Salvation, and whether we play a part in obtaining our Salvation, I'd have to say yes--we must *accept* of our own free will this Salvation being offered us by Christ. Unless we actually receive it, we don't have it. So Christ may very well have purchased eternal life for us, and for all mankind, but Salvation does not actually occur until we choose to receive it. Those who are severely brain-injured and still-born babies fall into a different category.

                                ... [I cut some things from his quote here just to reduce confusion]

                                Since these things are hard to understand, I remain open to whatever the Holy Spirit wishes to show me.
                                I think Randy put this very well (better than I have been trying to), and that he is on the right track. I would only add that in addition to belief and repentance, that confession of Jesus' name and baptism must be added to the list of things that Scripture says we must do to take hold of the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross.

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