can dead men choose Christ?

[jake2020]

Your misrepresent the Scriptures with your bad character. Attacking Christians who claim to be "like Christ" is not what God has called *anybody* to do. And yet, here you are doing it, on a forum designed for Christians to edify one another.

You're a tad bit too sensitive for someone who can dish it out like there is no tomorrow. The quoted Scripture plainly stated the obvious, If you claim to be without sin, the truth is not in you. 1 John 1:8

You apparently believe you're doing God a favor by attacking me. Good luck with that.

God doesn't need any favors, since He gives life to all. And luck has nothing to do with it, because the gospel is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes:

1 John 3.1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Attaboy.

Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints (God’s people) in the Light.
13 For He delivered us and has drawn us to Himself from the dominion of darkness, to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption....The Son is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God, the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Col 1

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 15

You're not speaking the truth, and you're being deceptive.

You can't handle the truth.

⁷ In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ⁸ which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, ⁹ having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, ¹⁰ that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, Eph 1

I have no idea what kind of Christian you are, but you're certainly not a good one.

Certainly not the wishy washy kind who says,

Originally posted by randyk
Well, I have an issue with you on your suggestion that God doesn't require anything from us except *belief.*

But then quotes:

Originally posted by randyk
1 John 3.1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

I'm not sure you're scoring any points except with your own inflated ego. You're certainly not scoring points with God!

You're not sure of anything, you just like the sound of your own voice. “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

But you're not really interested in *following* the Bible, are you? You actually have to do what it says to be truly godly.

Which means you have to be born [again] of the Spirit. (John 3:5-7)

You haven't even caught your inconsistency yet! You condemned me for saying I am "like Christ," and yet you quote Scriptures that indicate we should be like Christ.

You condemned yourself when you said it was not based on faith. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

1 Tim 4.1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
² Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Tim 5.¹³ Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to... ²⁰ But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.
1 Tim 6.³ If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, ⁴ they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions ⁵ and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Indeed, wishy washy demonically influenced hypocrites certainly have their work cut out.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, ⁵¹ and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

[randyk]

You're a tad bit too sensitive for someone who can dish it out like there is no tomorrow. The quoted Scripture plainly stated the obvious, If you claim to be without sin, the truth is not in you. 1 John 1:8

God doesn't need any favors, since He gives life to all. And luck has nothing to do with it, because the gospel is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes:

Attaboy.

Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints (God’s people) in the Light.
13 For He delivered us and has drawn us to Himself from the dominion of darkness, to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption....The Son is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God, the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Col 1

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 15

You can't handle the truth.

⁷ In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ⁸ which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, ⁹ having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, ¹⁰ that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, Eph 1



Certainly not the wishy washy kind who says,

Originally posted by randyk
Well, I have an issue with you on your suggestion that God doesn't require anything from us except *belief.*

But then quotes:

Originally posted by randyk
1 John 3.1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

You're not sure of anything, you just like the sound of your own voice. “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Which means you have to be born [again] of the Spirit. (John 3:5-7)
You condemned yourself when you said it was not based on faith. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Indeed, wishy washy demonically influenced hypocrites certainly have their work cut out.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, ⁵¹ and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

Get the poison out of your heart, and we may actually be able to communicate to one another in a Christian way.

[jake2020]

I have no idea what kind of Christian you are, but you're certainly not a good one.

Certainly not the wishy washy kind who says,
Originally posted by randyk
Well, I have an issue with you on your suggestion that God doesn't require anything from us except *belief.*

But then quotes:
Originally posted by randyk
1 John 3.1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

But you're not really interested in *following* the Bible, are you? You actually have to do what it says to be truly godly.

Which means you have to be born [again] of the Spirit. (John 3:5-7)

Get the poison out of your heart,...

Get a new heart and a new spirit, why should you die?

With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
¹⁴ “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”¹⁵ “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
¹⁶ Destruction and misery are in their ways;¹⁷ And the way of peace they have not known.

and we may actually be able to communicate to one another in a Christian way.

²¹ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ²² even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,Rom 3

[randyk]

Certainly not the wishy washy kind who says,
Originally posted by randyk
Well, I have an issue with you on your suggestion that God doesn't require anything from us except *belief.*

This is what causes you to unload Scriptures on me and use them as a weapon against me? And you call me "sensitive?" You think I'm "criminal" because I think works of faith needs to be added to mere "belief?"

I only said what the Bible itself has said...

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. ²⁰ You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Are you now going to accuse James of being "unsaved" too? I was just saying what he said! Perhaps you need to line up your own beliefs with what the Bible said?

[Kalahari]

This is what causes you to unload Scriptures on me and use them as a weapon against me? And you call me "sensitive?" You think I'm "criminal" because I think works of faith needs to be added to mere "belief?"

I only said what the Bible itself has said...

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. ²⁰ You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Are you now going to accuse James of being "unsaved" too? I was just saying what he said! Perhaps you need to line up your own beliefs with what the Bible said?

Randy we sit in a boat with two oars namely faith and deeds. Without both you are going nowhere. Where most get it wrong is that the boat's name is Sanctification. Your ticket to get in the boat is Salvation. To get the ticket you do not need the same oars as with Sanctification namely faith and deeds. You need faith by grace.

[randyk]

Randy we sit in a boat with two oars namely faith and deeds. Without both you are going nowhere. Where most get it wrong is that the boat's name is Sanctification. Your ticket to get in the boat is Salvation. To get the ticket you do not need the same oars as with Sanctification namely faith and deeds. You need faith by grace.

Those are names you give oars, and you've created the model for your own belief. This is *not* what James said! James said that Faith and Deeds are both necessary. He didn't say that Deeds are unimportant in the matter of Salvation. He just said Deeds were critically important to determine if Faith has any real value.

Obviously, if your Faith doesn't have any real value, than it has no capacity to obtain Salvation. So Deeds are critically important to Salvation because they are critically important to define our Faith as relevant. Without Relevant Faith we cannot have faith to be saved. The kind of Faith that saves us is Relevant Faith, ie Faith that has deeds with it. As Jesus said, "Repent and Believe."

Mark 1.15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

You do a real disservice to Jesus and to the Bible when you claim that Deeds do not play any role in Salvation. As I just pointed out, Deeds play a critical role in defining Relevant Faith. If we don't have Relevant Faith, we don't get saved. The only Faith that is Relevant is Faith that has deeds. Without repentance we don't have Relevant Faith. Conversion is the intentional abandonment of past practices for new practices. Unless we are willing to change our practices, we don't have Real Faith. And we won't really be saved!

If you don't think I know what you're talking about, you're foolish, because I was raised a Lutheran, and went through two years of catechism, learning Martin Luther's doctrines of Faith Alone. I know them through and through. I was confirmed!

But I'm no longer a Lutheran, even though I still love and admire Martin Luther. I just have an adjusted view of his "Faith Only" view. There has been a terrible imbalance caused by an overemphasis on Faith Alone. It doesn't mean any fallen human being helped Christ redeem us on the cross. It just means that for us to have true faith in his redemption we need to convert from our own fallen ways to embrace the life he died to give us.

[jake2020]

Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
²¹ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ²² even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. .. justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3

This is what causes you to unload Scriptures on me ... because I think works of faith needs to be added to mere "belief?"

I only said what the Bible itself has said...

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. ²⁰ You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 For the body without the spirit is dead .. .(James 2:26)

Are you now going to accuse James of being "unsaved" too? I was just saying what he said!

I have nothing against brother James.

Christ died for our sins, was buried, and He was raised on the third day...then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; (1Cor 15:1-7)

You know for certain that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him. 1 John 2:29

Perhaps you need to line up your own beliefs with what the Bible said?

Again, it's not beliefs, For there is one Lord one faith one baptism [of the Spirit] Eph 4:3-6.
We who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Cor 10:17

[randyk]

Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
²¹ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ²² even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. .. justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 For the body without the spirit is dead .. .(James 2:26)

I have nothing against brother James.

Christ died for our sins, was buried, and He was raised on the third day...then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; (1Cor 15:1-7)

You know for certain that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him. 1 John 2:29

Again, it's not beliefs, For there is one Lord one faith one baptism [of the Spirit] Eph 4:3-6.
We who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Cor 10:17

The subject is all about "beliefs," from my point of view. I'm defining Faith as necessarily containing "deeds," just as James did. I was quoting James! He defines Faith as necessarily including these kinds of "works," though I think that it's the word "works" that is throwing you off?

I explain this in our other discussion. In fact, I started the thread to help explain how I'm using the word "works." It's not "works to earn," but rather, the "works of producing deeds." And we do so not on our own, but by the help and virtue of God's word.

So a Christian does not have true Faith, as defined by the Bible, unless it includes repentance, obedience to God's word, and deeds. It's just that these are not "works to earn" Salvation. You're certainly right about that!

This, for me, is all about *defining True Faith.* It must include a certain kind of "works," albeit not "works that earn." I'm talking about repentance, obedience, and deeds. Jesus and James both said so. Otherwise, faith in what Christ did for us isn't true Faith and doesn't really apply to us. True Faith *responds* to the word of Christ!

[jake2020]

The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. Psalm 118:22 And it is marvelous in our eyes; Matthew 21:42

The subject is all about "beliefs," from my point of view. I'm defining Faith as necessarily containing "deeds," just as James did. I was quoting James! He defines Faith as necessarily including these kinds of "works," though I think that it's the word "works" that is throwing you off?

This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ ¹²Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:11-12

Christ Our Peace
¹⁸ For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
¹⁹ Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ²⁰ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, Eph 2

Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” 1 Peter 2:6-8

[randyk]

The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. Psalm 118:22 And it is marvelous in our eyes; Matthew 21:42

This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ ¹²Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:11-12

Christ Our Peace
¹⁸ For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
¹⁹ Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ²⁰ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, Eph 2

Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” 1 Peter 2:6-8

Yes, you're quoting Scriptures. But you don't address the *issues* that are involved in my discussion. I was explaining what the necessity of Deeds means with respect to our Faith, and how genuine Salvation must evidence a changed Nature.

The problem with the word "Works" in Protestant Theology is that it often causes Christians to depreciate the role of Deeds in our Salvation. Being Saved by "Faith Alone" often becomes an excuse for our imperfections, and lets nominal Christians in the door who haven't really experienced a changed Nature. If we're not Saved by any Works at all, then how important are Works?

So the problem is, for me, in defining the kind of "Works" we're talking about. I'm not talking about Works that "Earn," but rather, about Works that "produce Deeds." True Faith performs the Deed that God's Word is asking of us in real time. But that Deed does not Earn Salvation--rather, it is part of the Doing that renders our Salvation genuine. We are not earning our Salvation, by rather, receiving it. In doing it, we're actually receiving it simultaneously.

My interest in this subject is practical, and something I've personally experienced as a Lutheran growing up. I had to learn that true Faith means obedience to God's Word to my heart on a regular basis. And true Salvation means that we evidence a New Nature in our lives. I had to learn to understand that this New Nature is not just a "good life," a "moral life," but much more, a life of attention to God's word to our hearts every minute of our lives. We live for the Kingdom of God, and not just pay dues to it once a week.

True Salvation is receiving a New Nature, and as such it is something evidenced by what we do from that moment on. We receive Christ and simultaneously begin to demonstrate that he and his righteousness are in our lives. But the first thing we must *do* is choose to receive him. True Faith must *do* this!

[jake2020]

The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. Psalm 118:22 And it is marvelous in our eyes; Matthew 21:42

This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ ¹²Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:11-12

Christ Our Peace
¹⁸ For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
¹⁹ Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ²⁰ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, Eph 2

Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” 1 Peter 2:6-8

Yes, you're quoting Scriptures. But you don't address the *issues* ...
True Salvation is receiving a New Nature,

Tell me this, did you receive the Spirit by works or by faith?

[randyk]

Tell me this, did you receive the Spirit by works or by faith?

Can you speak for yourself, or do you have to "channel" your questions through Paul?

[randyk]

Tell me this, did you receive the Spirit by works or by faith?

Can you speak for yourself, or do you have to "channel" your questions through Paul?

Obviously, Works, when done independent of Christ's Spirit, accomplishes nothing as far as Salvation. It accomplishes nothing at all except to boast in the Flesh, which we know is despicable, proud, and sinful.

But authentic Faith is defined, according to Jesus, as requiring the work of repentance. This is an entirely different kind of "work" than what Paul is referring to, and is necessary for Salvation--something you seem to deny, but which you are unable to come out and say. James clearly defined true Faith as requiring Deeds. These kinds of Deeds do not "earn" Salvation--rather, they identify whether the Faith is genuine or not.

There is an illegitimate Faith, which may serve some value in believing that there is a God. But it is illegitimate in terms of acquiring Salvation. True Faith is known by its deeds.

And so, Faith that Saves is Faith identified by both its Deeds and by its Repentance. It repents of a life of doing things on its own, apart from Christ. We repent from our own ways to live by THE Way, the Truth, and the Life, namely Christ. This is the only kind of Faith that Saves--that which repents of sin, and performs deeds by conforming to the word of Christ.

[jake2020]

Can you speak for yourself, or do you have to "channel" your questions through Paul?

What happened to your previous post #210 in which you said: "Go and learn what this means...
1 Peter 3.⁸ Finally, all of you, be like-minded,..."

knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:9

Obviously, Works, when done independent of Christ's Spirit, accomplishes nothing as far as Salvation.

But authentic Faith is defined, according to Jesus, as requiring the work of repentance. This is an entirely different kind of "work" than what Paul is referring to, and is necessary for Salvation--something you seem to deny, but which you are unable to come out and say.

The burden of proof is on you to show where I denied that we are accepted through Christ.

All of us who are Christians have proven that we were *not* in bondage to the sin we were born into, because we were able to repent and to choose Christ as our Savior.

Not only is no one impeding you from repenting, turning to God for the free gift of salvation, as a matter of fact, it is strongly encouraged.

Since He Himself gives life to all people...for in Him we live [eternally] ...So now God commands all men everywhere to repent,
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.
He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:24-31

We repent from our own ways to live by THE Way, the Truth, and the Life, namely Christ. This is the only kind of Faith that Saves--that which repents of sin, and performs deeds by conforming to the word of Christ.

Obviously if you're not in Christ, you are disqualified.

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5