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Is forsaking belief possible, and if so what are the consequences?

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  • Is forsaking belief possible, and if so what are the consequences?

    I wanted to pull out a post from the "Can Salvation Be Lost" thread for discussion. The point is whether one can forsake their belief in Jesus Christ and what the consequence is if possible. I'll offer a second post after this one for discussion as well.

    Can we lose or forsake our belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

    Let's look at the "Parable of the Sower" in Luke 8.

    The Parable of the Sower is somewhat unique because we don't have to wonder about the meaning of the parable. This is because Jesus declares it explicitly for the disciples and His explanation is preserved and offered to us in the Gospel of Luke (and in the other synoptic Gospels). Luke 8:9-10 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    So we have no problem in understanding the meaning of the parable, we don't have to re-interpret it since the meaning is given directly to us.

    Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

    The agent of change, the "seed", is the word of God declared to "hearers".

    12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    We see that the "seed" has the ability to save if believed, thus the enemy is active also in sowing doubt to prevent believing the word of God and the intended result from hearing.

    13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    Jesus here explains that some do hear, they receive with joy, and believe but eventually fall away. Note that what did not continue was their belief and that appears to be the cause of falling away in the time of temptation. They "for a while" believed, but eventually fell away.

    This is as far as I want to consider and wish to gather your thoughts on what Jesus is explaining here. Were those who were compared to seed which fell on rocks ever saved (v 12 indicates believers are saved)? If so, and even if they did not continue in their belief, did they continue in their salvation even though they "fell away"? What exactly did they "fall away" from?

    What do I take away from this? What I hear is "don't be like those where the seed fell on rock". I don't think Jesus is just giving out information on why it seems some are destined not to be saved. It seems to me the point is to consider "how we hear".
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  • #2
    2 Peter 2:18-22 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Peter in the above is making a broader point about those that come in and deceive believers. 2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    Peter is first talking about the false teachers and their targets, hoping to heap to themselves followers. The first passage I quoted is more about those who are drawn away from their belief by these false teachers.

    We would call these kinds of passages "warnings" that are in many places in the New Testament. For me, the warning is to believers and leaders to be on the lookout for these false teachers and therefore not to be "overcome" by these teachings. What does Peter indicate the condition of one who is "overcome" is? It doesn't seem well to me. Why would he say it would have been better for them to never have believed in the first place? Note that this is towards those who fall victim to the false teachers and not regarding the false teachers themselves.

    To those who believe in preservation or perseverance of the Saints, these warnings are usually explained in one of two ways, either as information to the Elect in knowing how the reprobate are to fall away, or as warnings meant to keep us preserved in Salvation. In other words, the warnings are given as the means by which we are preserved. For me, I have never been able to exactly reconcile that thought to the Bible and my mind because there are in many places specific consequences mentioned. I don't believe we can just wipe away the consequences mentioned.

    Can a believer be drawn away and "overcome" AGAIN by the pollutions of the world that they had previously escaped? (v20) What is the state of such a believer and the consequence?
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, it is possible to "forsake one's belief", otherwise, 2 verses would be meaningless.

      Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

      Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

      If it were not possible to forsake one's belief, then the red words above mean nothing.

      As to the consequences, there are 2. The first consequence is loss of God's blessings, which comes from loss of fellowship (1 John 1). With that is the loss of eternal rewards. These rewards are earned.

      The second consequence is God's painful discipline. Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

      It is common for Arminians, who don't believe in eternal security, to charge that if salvation cannot be lost then the believer can get away with anything without consequences.

      Yet, Heb 12:11 says clearly that God's discipline is painful. And we see how that works out. Here are some examples:

      Acts 5 - the husband-wife duo who lied to the Holy Spirit and dropped dead for it.

      1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

      1 Cor 10:5 - Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
      1 Cor 10:8-11
      8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. (some orgy, huh.)
      9 We should not test Christ,as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
      10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
      11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

      1 Tim 1:19-20
      19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
      20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

      So, we see that physical death is a possibility. But also 1 Tim 1:20 indicates the possibility of torture by Satan.

      So, those who forsake their faith in Christ can count on being miserable, one way or another. While there are a number of famous or well known people who have claimed to leave the Christian faith, and appear to have everything together and seem to be enjoying themselves, just remember how many famous, rich etc people who are under therapy for their misery. I'm not saying all of them are under God's discipline, but it's a biblical fact that God will discipline His children, either through removal of blessings and protection, leading to misery, or access by Satan, who "prowls around seeking someone to devour". That doesn't sound like a mere slap on the wrist, which a fairly common view among Arminians when they hear about God's discipline.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
        So, those who forsake their faith in Christ can count on being miserable, one way or another. While there are a number of famous or well known people who have claimed to leave the Christian faith, and appear to have everything together and seem to be enjoying themselves, just remember how many famous, rich etc people who are under therapy for their misery. I'm not saying all of them are under God's discipline, but it's a biblical fact that God will discipline His children, either through removal of blessings and protection, leading to misery, or access by Satan, who "prowls around seeking someone to devour". That doesn't sound like a mere slap on the wrist, which a fairly common view among Arminians when they hear about God's discipline.
        If I understand you correctly, you do not believe the consequence of forsaking one's belief in Jesus Christ would include being eternally lost or perishing. I included two passages for consideration. In the "Parable of the Sower", Jesus indicates that the one who believed for a while ultimately "fell away". So you believe that such a one falls away from rewards in heaven and in this life may undergo chastisement, but no loss of eternal life? In the second passage, how would being subject to chastisement or the loss of rewards be of such consequence that it would have been "better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them"? It would have been better to be eternally lost instead of possessing eternal life without rewards? Or it would have been better to perish rather than fall into chastisement?

        Thanks for your interaction.
        Watchinginawe

        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Luke 9:62 "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

          Is this The answer to your question ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post

            If I understand you correctly, you do not believe the consequence of forsaking one's belief in Jesus Christ would include being eternally lost or perishing.
            Corrrect. Jesus said in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. This is the most clear verse on eternal security in the Bible

            I included two passages for consideration. In the "Parable of the Sower", Jesus indicates that the one who believed for a while ultimately "fell away".
            The term "fell away" refers back to "believed for a while". iow, they "fell away" from their faith. Jesus said nothing about falling away from salvation. That is an incorrect assumption.

            Again, John 10:28 doesn't permit such an understanding of Luke 8:13.

            So you believe that such a one falls away from rewards in heaven and in this life may undergo chastisement, but no loss of eternal life?
            Correct.

            In the second passage, how would being subject to chastisement or the loss of rewards be of such consequence that it would have been "better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them"?
            The words "in the end" doesn't refer to eternity, as some assume, but the end of their life.

            Here are the pertinent verses from 2 Peter 2-
            20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
            21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

            iow, becoming a believer and then turning back to a life of sin (entangled again in it) will result in the rest of their life being worse off than when they first believed. v.21 tells us that unbelievers will have a better life than a believer who turns back to sin. That's what "better for them not to have knonwn the way of righteousness".

            It would have been better to be eternally lost instead of possessing eternal life without rewards?
            No, the verse doesn't say or mean that.

            Or it would have been better to perish rather than fall into chastisement?

            Thanks for your interaction.
            Again, no. Believers who turn back to sin will be "worse off", due to God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11 than unbelievers who never knew "the way of righteousness" during their life on earth.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hawkman View Post
              Luke 9:62 "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

              Is this The answer to your question ?
              Interesting verse. In this case, it is a metaphor but the meaning and context seems clear. Jesus utters this in response to someone who said they would follow Him but wanted first to return home and say goodbye to family members.

              It would seem to indicate that one could begin to plow and then have a change of mind that negates the reward for continued plowing. That can work in reverse too though. The prodigal son put his hand to a different kind of plow and looking back he repented and was redeemed.

              So maybe my question is better stated as "Can one repent of their belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior without consequence?"

              At the end of Luke 9, Jesus is also making His way to Jerusalem where He said He would be killed. One could make the argument that it is Jesus who is in the larger context not looking back and instead forward to His appointment on the cross.
              Watchinginawe

              I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                Corrrect. Jesus said in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. This is the most clear verse on eternal security in the Bible
                ...
                The term "fell away" refers back to "believed for a while". iow, they "fell away" from their faith. Jesus said nothing about falling away from salvation. That is an incorrect assumption.
                ...
                iow, becoming a believer and then turning back to a life of sin (entangled again in it) will result in the rest of their life being worse off than when they first believed. v.21 tells us that unbelievers will have a better life than a believer who turns back to sin. That's what "better for them not to have knonwn the way of righteousness".
                ...Again, no. Believers who turn back to sin will be "worse off", due to God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11 than unbelievers who never knew "the way of righteousness" during their life on earth.
                I can understand your point of one who turns back being worse off than at the beginning if there were no eternal consequence as regards being saved. Thus they would be saved, but apparently due to some choices and determinism still left to them they are able to make a mess of things while still being saved. I guess it is by the same determinism that one earns rewards. But in neither case in your view is there any eternal consequence regarding salvation by one's actions.

                I guess I would ask you how you believe one believes in the first place. Is it their belief? Or is the belief itself a work of God? If the latter, are you saying that the Bible indicates that one may repent of their God given belief? Anyway, I would like your thoughts on this.
                Watchinginawe

                I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                  I guess it is by the same determinism that one earns rewards. But in neither case in your view is there any eternal consequence regarding salvation by one's actions.
                  Regarding salvation, there are no consequences by one's actions. The reason should be clear; we aren't saved by our actions, and neither can we lose salvation by our actions.

                  I guess I would ask you how you believe one believes in the first place. Is it their belief?
                  The Bible informs us where belief comes from; the heart. Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

                  And Jesus noted this about man's heart, from Matt 15:18,19
                  18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

                  What these verses show is that man's choices come from his heart.

                  Or is the belief itself a work of God?
                  No. Some think so from John 6:28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” However, recall that the Jews had been led to believe that they could be saved by keeping the Law, so their salvation orientation was one of works. Hence the question about what God requires.

                  And Jesus' answer clarifies what God requires, which is faith. "Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

                  We know from Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 that believing is not a work, so Jesus' answer was more of a tongue-in-cheek answer. What He meant was that The work that God requires is to believe. And we know where belief comes from; the heart. It's a choice.

                  If the latter, are you saying that the Bible indicates that one may repent of their God given belief? Anyway, I would like your thoughts on this.
                  The Greek word for 'repent' means to change the mind, which we see in the story of the prodigal by the phrase, "he came to his senses". iow, he changed his mind about wanting to leave his father, and he demonstrated his repentance by returning to his father.

                  So, to answer your question, yes, there are people who have changed their minds about their belief or faith in Christ. Charles Templeton, a renown evangelist, did just that. He's the one who took a young Billy Graham under his wing and mentored him. In fact, in 1947 they toured Europe giving crusades and roomed together. However, he came across something in the OT that challenged his faith, and since he couldn't reconcile some facts with what he thought the Bible said, he gave up and lost his faith. How sad.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The seed is not in question, the seed is good always, the word of God. What is in question is where the seed is sown, what kind of soil? is it cultivated? has it been worked upon, with rocks removed, thorns and thistles ... has it been dunged about? is it fertile?

                    These are the questions the church or the evangelist must consider before undertaking any missionary objective.

                    Of course if the command to go comes from the Holy Spirit we go believing that He has indeed done a work of preparation. Perhaps He is sending us to do the work of preparation, some sow and other reap and we enter into their labour.

                    In the parable seed which fell on the pathways was always unproductive, seed that fell upon rocky soil did bear fruit for a while and seed that fell among thorns also prospered for a while but the seed that fell upon good soil prospered mightily.

                    So judge whether the soil is cultivated and fertile, if not consider what work must be done if at all possible to make it fertile. If the soil is good it will always produce good results.

                    A church or a church minister [evangelist] with bad doctrines [though he may be saved] will produced mixed results or achieve only a partially successful result.

                    The current climate of failure within the church, with regards to soulwinning and enduring faith and discipleship would indicate to me that there needs to be serious look at the theology and doctrines we believe and preach.

                    I do not believe it is possible to lose salvation but VERY possible to become a weak and effective disciple and worker, even to fail altogether yet still be saved.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                      Regarding salvation, there are no consequences by one's actions. The reason should be clear; we aren't saved by our actions, and neither can we lose salvation by our actions.
                      I want to replace "actions" with "belief" in the above. Here is what results:

                      Regarding salvation, there are no consequences by one's belief. The reason should be clear; we aren't saved by our belief, and neither can we lose salvation by our belief.

                      Hmm. I think we both agree that "repenting" would be an "action", right? Maybe you have a different opinion. But likewise, that is why I see belief as an "action" or at least subsequent to a necessary "action", and any repentance from belief also as an "action". What say you?

                      Originally posted by FreeGrace
                      What these verses show is that man's choices come from his heart.
                      ...
                      We know from Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 that believing is not a work, so Jesus' answer was more of a tongue-in-cheek answer. What He meant was that The work that God requires is to believe. And we know where belief comes from; the heart. It's a choice.
                      I think you are equating "action" with "work". But it seems we agree that belief is self determined. I would add that belief is also by hearing the Gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit in bringing conviction of our circumstance and the witness of the Truth of the Gospel.

                      Originally posted by FreeGrace
                      So, to answer your question, yes, there are people who have changed their minds about their belief or faith in Christ. Charles Templeton, a renown evangelist, did just that. He's the one who took a young Billy Graham under his wing and mentored him. In fact, in 1947 they toured Europe giving crusades and roomed together. However, he came across something in the OT that challenged his faith, and since he couldn't reconcile some facts with what he thought the Bible said, he gave up and lost his faith. How sad.
                      I agree, very sad. I think we largely agree except that I'm NOSAS and your OSAS. Thus our filters cause us to differ on what the Bible says about Charles Templeton's fate.
                      Watchinginawe

                      I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Billy Evmur View Post
                        The seed is not in question, the seed is good always, the word of God. What is in question is where the seed is sown, what kind of soil? is it cultivated? has it been worked upon, with rocks removed, thorns and thistles ... has it been dunged about? is it fertile?

                        These are the questions the church or the evangelist must consider before undertaking any missionary objective.
                        Billy, thanks for your reply regarding the Parable of the Sower. I like your message and how you presented it, even though we disagree on the thread's topic. You disagree so nicely! lol But informatively as well.

                        I do want to interact with the above quoted section some. Don't take my comments as how I think you believe regarding "sowing", but I at one time believed in "conservation" as it were of "the seed". i.e. concentrating on making soils fertile as opposed to wasting seed on "the wayside".

                        I have moderated my views over the many years though. I now see that Jesus refers to pretty much one event. The sower didn't go to the wayside and throw seed, or to stony ground. The sower pretty much is indicated to be sowing indiscriminately without regard to the soils. I think that is the proper way we should see things. We are at all times sowing and we really don't know where God's word will take root and bring forth fruit.

                        Jesus later on makes the comment in Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

                        Three things here. First, "take heed therefore how ye hear". It seems the POINT of the parable and the following explanation is concluded with what we are to take away from all of this. Take heed therefore how ye hear. We seem to have some determinism in "how we hear". Additionally, the point is not "take heed therefore how ye sow". I believe Jesus is instructing us to determine what kind of ground we will be when we hear.

                        Second, for those who hear and heed, they will prosper and as they mature more responsibility and blessings will be accrued to them.

                        Third, for those who hear carelessly, i.e. those who hear and receive, but do not heed how they hear (continue) are then like the poor soils and even though they may seem to be Christians for a while, even that shall be taken away from them.

                        I will add that this does seem to suggest that perhaps the poor soils were never saved. I believe they were, but Jesus does say that "whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". I would say that what they "have not" is an enduring faith in Jesus Christ. They did not continue in their belief and they fell away as a result. So for me, I believe the "hath not" condition is what happens when one hears, believes, but does not heed "how they hear" and later fall away.
                        Watchinginawe

                        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          Regarding salvation, there are no consequences by one's actions. The reason should be clear; we aren't saved by our actions, and neither can we lose salvation by our actions.
                          Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                          I want to replace "actions" with "belief" in the above. Here is what results:

                          Regarding salvation, there are no consequences by one's belief. The reason should be clear; we aren't saved by our belief, and neither can we lose salvation by our belief.

                          Hmm. I think we both agree that "repenting" would be an "action", right? Maybe you have a different opinion. But likewise, that is why I see belief as an "action" or at least subsequent to a necessary "action", and any repentance from belief also as an "action". What say you?
                          When I say "actions" I mean doing things, not thinking things. Like mowing the lawn vs just thinking about it. The Greek for "repent" means to change the mind. In order to believe in Christ for salvation, one must change their mind about a number of things.

                          1. must believe that Jesus is God's Son.
                          2. must believe that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of everyone.
                          3. must believe that Jesus will give the free gift of eternal life to everyone who believes in Him for it.
                          4. must believe that those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

                          I think you are equating "action" with "work". But it seems we agree that belief is self determined.
                          Right on both counts.

                          I would add that belief is also by hearing the Gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit in bringing conviction of our circumstance and the witness of the Truth of the Gospel.
                          Yes, the Holy Spirit does work, but not the individual for salvation.

                          I agree, very sad. I think we largely agree except that I'm NOSAS and your OSAS. Thus our filters cause us to differ on what the Bible says about Charles Templeton's fate.
                          How do we "largely agree" with such polar opposite views on salvation??

                          my "filter" is John 10:28, plus a host of other verses that specifically indicate that salvation is permanent.

                          Since you are OSNAS, what verses are there that specifically and clearly (plain language) indicate that salvation can be lost?

                          Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                            How do we "largely agree" with such polar opposite views on salvation??

                            my "filter" is John 10:28, plus a host of other verses that specifically indicate that salvation is permanent.

                            Since you are OSNAS, what verses are there that specifically and clearly (plain language) indicate that salvation can be lost?
                            Last first. I started the thread with verses that I believe warn us that the promise of eternal life can be forfeited. I could include many more references like the ones I have already provided, but you would see each of them according to your filter and ultimately we would just disagree.

                            Where we agree apparently is in the determinism of humanity to "hear" and "believe" the Gospel and "be saved". We also agree on that process, thus we repent when we hear the Gospel and change our mind about our current belief system having also been convicted by the Holy Spirit and then we form a new belief and faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He is Savior to those who need (they understand through the process of resentence) a Savior. We EVEN agree that one may later repent of their belief and faith in Jesus Christ. Pretty much the only thing we disagree on is the consequence of such a thing. You believe one forfeits rewards (or is it they don't earn them?) and they are turned over to chastisement in this life but nevertheless remain secure in their eternal fate. I believe the consequence is the forfeiting of the promise of eternal life to those who die "in Christ".

                            Anyway, I think we "largely agree" on things much more than say if you were arguing from the point of view of Calvinism.

                            Blessings,
                            Watchinginawe

                            I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post

                              Last first. I started the thread with verses that I believe warn us that the promise of eternal life can be forfeited. I could include many more references like the ones I have already provided, but you would see each of them according to your filter and ultimately we would just disagree.
                              Speaking of filters, how do you know you're not filtering your verses?

                              Let me give you 2 verses and see how you explain where my "filter" is.

                              John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

                              The red word results in the blue words. iow, the one who believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life, WON'T be judged and has crossed from death to life. Please tell me how this verse doesn't prove eternal security.

                              Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

                              The red words are what Jesus does for those who believe (John 5:24). The blue words is the result of what Jesus does. Please tell me how this verse doesn't prove eternal security.

                              Thanks.

                              Pretty much the only thing we disagree on is the consequence of such a thing. You believe one forfeits rewards (or is it they don't earn them?) and they are turned over to chastisement in this life but nevertheless remain secure in their eternal fate. I believe the consequence is the forfeiting of the promise of eternal life to those who die "in Christ".
                              I'd love your understanding of John 5:24 and 10:28. I think they are straight up clear verses that states eternal security.

                              Anyway, I think we "largely agree" on things much more than say if you were arguing from the point of view of Calvinism.

                              Blessings,
                              To be clear, I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian.

                              Comment

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