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Is forsaking belief possible, and if so what are the consequences?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Speaking of filters, how do you know you're not filtering your verses?
    FreeGrace, I have already allowed that I also bring filters into my reconciliation of all Scripture. I said:"I think we largely agree except that I'm NOSAS and your OSAS. Thus our filters cause us to differ on what the Bible says about Charles Templeton's fate." So I DO know and have already admitted to you that I bring verses that seem to contradict my prevailing view (filter) into harmony. Perhaps you didn't read that very carefully.

    Originally posted by FreeGrace
    Let me give you 2 verses and see how you explain where my "filter" is.

    John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    The red word results in the blue words. iow, the one who believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life, WON'T be judged and has crossed from death to life. Please tell me how this verse doesn't prove eternal security.
    Possession of eternal life is found among those who believe. Not who once believed. The KJV puts it this way: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Note that this is very familiar language and can also be seen in John 3. Also, comparing to the parable of the sower, we have again the word, the hearing of the word, and belief both in God who sent Jesus but also the words that Jesus offers. The belief that endures but for a while and falls away does not possess everlasting life. They do not "believeth".

    Originally posted by FreeGrace
    Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    The red words are what Jesus does for those who believe (John 5:24). The blue words is the result of what Jesus does. Please tell me how this verse doesn't prove eternal security.
    Just prior to John 10:28 Jesus offers the following: John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    Jesus says that those who do not believe are not of His sheep. Jesus says His sheep HEAR His voice, and they FOLLOW Him. You seem to agree that some believers at some point in their faith journey turn aside and no longer hear His voice and no longer follow Him. I don't think they would accrue the benefits of those who do HEAR and FOLLOW. Hearing and following is what brings the safety, It seems plain to me.

    Blessings,
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post

      Possession of eternal life is found among those who believe. Not who once believed.
      OK, this is a common view. However, this does miss the obvious message of both verses; John 5:24 and 10:28. In the first verse, Jesus said those who believe POSSESS eternal life. So that means that Jesus has given eternal life to them.

      The second verse tells us the result of being given the gift of eternal life: recipients shall never perish. There are no exceptions given by Jesus or anywhere else in Scripture that alters or modifies what Jesus said about recipients in 10:28.

      So, this shows that your filters aren't objective, but subjective.

      The present tense of "believe" means believing RIGHT NOW. However, we find the aorist tense in many verses regarding believing. What do your filters do with that tense? That is the tense of a point in time (generally past tense) action. That's the tense Paul used in his answer to the jailer who asked him what he SHOULD DO to be saved.

      However, since you have brought up a past tense action "once believed", let's examine a verse that addresses the past tense.

      1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

      This verse parallels exactly with what Jesus said in John 10:28. He, who is God, gives eternal life. And the result is the recipient shall never perish.

      Do you understand that Jesus left no room for exceptions? Any such exceptions would have been expressed by a conditional clause. And He gave none.

      The KJV puts it this way: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
      Yes, that is the first of my 2 verses that teach eternal security. This verse conveys that the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life. And both John 10:28 and 1 Joh 5:11 tell us plainly that it is God who gives us eternal life. And Jesus made very clear in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

      Here's the fact. Once given ETERNAL LIFE, the recipient cannot die spiritually. If salvation can be lost, then ETERNAL life can die. Do you believe that eternal life can die?

      The belief that endures but for a while and falls away does not possess everlasting life. They do not "believeth".
      Except there are no verses that make this statement. It is an opinion, but not a biblical fact.

      Just prior to John 10:28 Jesus offers the following: John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
      This doesn't change anything about the clear words of v.28. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. NO, NOT EVER.

      Jesus says that those who do not believe are not of His sheep.
      Sure. And Jesus made clear in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Are there any verses that tell us clearly and plainly that the gift of eternal life can be removed, revoked, or lost? No, there aren't. In fact, Rom 11:29 tells us that God's gifts, which would include eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit, are IRREVOCABLE.

      Jesus says His sheep HEAR His voice, and they FOLLOW Him.
      But, what v.27 doesn't say or even suggest, is that hearing and following are REQUIREMENTS for eternal life. Many people unfortunately make that assumption.

      You seem to agree that some believers at some point in their faith journey turn aside and no longer hear His voice and no longer follow Him.
      I certainly believe what Jesus said in Luke 8:13.

      I don't think they would accrue the benefits of those who do HEAR and FOLLOW. Hearing and following is what brings the safety, It seems plain to me.

      Blessings,
      It's not important what we think, but what Scripture very plainly states. If there are any verses that plainly state that salvation can be lost, please share. But I already know that there aren't any. In fact, your comment here demonstrates that you DO see hearing and following as requirements for eternal life.

      Instead, we have John 5:24, 10:28 and 1 john 5:11.

      One doesn't need a filter to read these verses and understand the truth of eternal security.

      We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8,9 We are kept by the Savior. Heb 12:2

      Once belief, the believer possesses eternal life. And possessors of eternal life shall never perish.

      If you can refute the statement above from clear Scripture, please do.

      I don't want to be wrong any more than you.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
        But, what v.27 doesn't say or even suggest, is that hearing and following are REQUIREMENTS for eternal life. Many people unfortunately make that assumption...

        Once belief, the believer possesses eternal life. And possessors of eternal life shall never perish.

        If you can refute the statement above from clear Scripture, please do.
        Regarding hearing and following, those are Jesus' words regarding those who believe God and hear Jesus' words. You can assume those who neither believe nor no longer hear and follow Jesus will forever be saved, but I don't believe the Bible shows that. I have already produced Scripture which supports my view and I could do more, but of course we aren't going to agree so I will offer if the discussion gives the opportunity, but not just for you and I to play "Bridge" with Scripture.

        I've enjoyed the discussion. Blessings,
        Watchinginawe

        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post

          Regarding hearing and following, those are Jesus' words regarding those who believe God and hear Jesus' words. You can assume those who neither believe nor no longer hear and follow Jesus will forever be saved, but I don't believe the Bible shows that.
          Do you believe that Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

          I have already produced Scripture which supports my view and I could do more, but of course we aren't going to agree so I will offer if the discussion gives the opportunity, but not just for you and I to play "Bridge" with Scripture.

          I've enjoyed the discussion. Blessings,
          What wasn't provided was any verse that plainly tells us that salvation can be lost. All of your verses must assume that, just as you noted in your second sentence in this post.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
            Billy, thanks for your reply regarding the Parable of the Sower. I like your message and how you presented it, even though we disagree on the thread's topic. You disagree so nicely! lol But informatively as well.

            I do want to interact with the above quoted section some. Don't take my comments as how I think you believe regarding "sowing", but I at one time believed in "conservation" as it were of "the seed". i.e. concentrating on making soils fertile as opposed to wasting seed on "the wayside".

            I have moderated my views over the many years though. I now see that Jesus refers to pretty much one event. The sower didn't go to the wayside and throw seed, or to stony ground. The sower pretty much is indicated to be sowing indiscriminately without regard to the soils. I think that is the proper way we should see things. We are at all times sowing and we really don't know where God's word will take root and bring forth fruit.

            Jesus later on makes the comment in Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

            Three things here. First, "take heed therefore how ye hear". It seems the POINT of the parable and the following explanation is concluded with what we are to take away from all of this. Take heed therefore how ye hear. We seem to have some determinism in "how we hear". Additionally, the point is not "take heed therefore how ye sow". I believe Jesus is instructing us to determine what kind of ground we will be when we hear.

            Second, for those who hear and heed, they will prosper and as they mature more responsibility and blessings will be accrued to them.

            Third, for those who hear carelessly, i.e. those who hear and receive, but do not heed how they hear (continue) are then like the poor soils and even though they may seem to be Christians for a while, even that shall be taken away from them.

            I will add that this does seem to suggest that perhaps the poor soils were never saved. I believe they were, but Jesus does say that "whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". I would say that what they "have not" is an enduring faith in Jesus Christ. They did not continue in their belief and they fell away as a result. So for me, I believe the "hath not" condition is what happens when one hears, believes, but does not heed "how they hear" and later fall away.
            You throw up a critical question

            Whose fault is it that the soil is poor? can the soil itself be blamed if there are thorns and thistles planted therein? or if it is strewn with rocks? The soil may be every whit as good as that which has been digged and dunged about.

            Could you be blamed for being a 19th century Apache? or an African headhunter tribesman of the early 20th century? today members of those ethnicities may prosper in the gospel as well as any Oklahoman farmer, in fact there has been a harvest of souls among both ethnicities.

            How is it that the gospel has been able to prosper in the later 20th century than earlier? .... perhaps they have received a better gospel. a more full gospel preached with better doctrinal understanding.

            I agree the word is preached indiscriminately although Paul was sometimes forbidden to enter certain nations and sometimes thought himself that the gospel was better served by refraining to visit some churches, lest they should find him such as they did not like and he should find them such as he did not like. Is that why God holds back revival? for concern that His people find the Holy Spirit not as they liked, and He find them not to His liking?

            Be careful how you hear, this to the disciples, I'm putting the onus of responsibility upon the church [ME ... I'm church] are we listening? howbeit, I am confident that all who are to e saved will be saved. God bless you.

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