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  • #76
    Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
    Asking me to cite to verses to demonstrate how Christians have come to know that the law is civil, ceremonial and moral and its applicability (as I explained it in my post above) is to ask me to quote the entire Bible to you.

    The fact is, God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - has standards by which Christians ought to live. YOu seem to be hung up on the word "law". YOu can call this the "moral law" (the traditional name), or "God's standards for living a godly life" or "what God expects from humanity" or "appropriate Christian conduct" or whatever. A rose by any other name is still a rose. The fact remains, God has expectations for humanity. To defy the expectations is to sin.

    For the Christian, there is sin and there is virture. The standards by which we determine which from which can be labeled the moral law (or whatever). Whatever the name, it exisits. I am not suggesting that this moral law (or whatever your preferred term is), were the Christian to perfectly abide by it, would save the Christian. By no means. We are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone. God's grace and our faith, however, do not mean that there are no expectations on our lives and no obligation to live up to these expectations. This is the very essence of many Pauline theological arguments - especially his discourse in Romans.

    In the context of this thread, divorce/remarriage is inconsistent with what God expexts from Christians and is, therefore, sin.
    My issue here is that you are contradicting Scripture with your statements that we are under some "moral law". Paul makes it perfectly clear that we are not under any law. In fact, he makes it clear that we are dead to it. If you are not dead to the law then you are awaiting judgment for your sins as they are not forgiven. If you are in the faith then you are no longer under the law and its charges against you have been satisfied by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. To say we are under a "moral law" is to say that you are still under a yoke that you cannot fulfill. We do not refrain from sin because we are under some law that says not to sin. We refrain from sin for an entirely different reason. The law was not given to those who chose to seek after God's heart and do what He would have them do. The law was given to those who rebelled against God and sinned. If you aren't currently rebelling against God and living in sin then you are not under any law. That is a foundational truth of God's grace.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
      You can say that about a lot of the theology that gets bounced around this forum!

      However, relative to divorce/remarriage, even the Reformation churches really did not permit divorce/remarriage significantly until the 20th Century. Permitting divorce/remarriage is part of the liberalization of Christians, nothing more, nothing less.

      I also note that no one commented on my post about the homosexual movement. The fact is, when you move beyond biblical boundries concerning sexual relations (i.e.: permitting divorce/remarriage) there is no logical reason to stop further expansion (e.g.: to include homosexuality). Once the biblical standard is breached, anything is fair game.
      Hi seamus

      I absolutely agree with you in regards to the homosexual movement. If the church is allowing remarriage when the Scriptures say a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives.... I can certainly see where a homosexual would say, "Hey! Wait a minute... if it's ok for you to break the rules and get away with it.... it's ok for me!"

      One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that our church no longer practices what it did for 1500 + years. It is evident we are in the last days.

      Thanks and God bless!
      Alyssa
      Last edited by Alyssa S; Jul 24th 2008, 04:36 AM. Reason: hoooosexual to homosexual... :)

      Comment


      • #78
        Once again Alyssa, this passage
        a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives
        is taken out of Romans 7 and is also taken out of Context.

        In Roman 7 Paul is talking about being Alive in Spirit, Not Alive in the Flesh
        In Christ Love

        BCF

        2 Peter 1:20-21:

        "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

        Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

        Comment


        • #79
          [quote]
          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
          You better be. Otherwise you have some answering to do on the day of judgment. The apostle Paul declares that we are dead to the Ten Commandments and that covenant is no longer for the Christian . . .
          There's a difference from Moses' law and God's Royal Law. I am dead to loving the Lord God with all my heart and loving my neighbor as myself? Whoa!

          Revelation 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, ( NOT DIE TO THEM) that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

          Jesus said,If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
          "IF YOU LOVE ME".... which is the GREATEST of the Ten Commandments....Loving Him!

          Uhhh... I think Jesus, God himself, said to KEEP the Commandments... not die to them.

          Comment


          • #80
            [quote=Alyssa S;1721598]


            There's a difference from Moses' law and God's Royal Law. I am dead to loving the Lord God with all my heart and loving my neighbor as myself? Whoa!

            Revelation 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, ( NOT DIE TO THEM) that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

            Jesus said,If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
            "IF YOU LOVE ME".... which is the GREATEST of the Ten Commandments....Loving Him!

            Uhhh... I think Jesus, God himself, said to KEEP the Commandments... not die to them.
            No Alyssa, Dead to the Law, But Alive to God in Spirit

            Romans 7:1-6,

            1. Know ye not brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth (talking about living in the flesh here). 2. For the woman which hath an husband by the law (which was given to Moses) to her husband so long as he liveth; (once again still talking about the flesh here) but if the husband be dead (and again in the flesh) she is loosed from the law (which was given to Moses).
            3. So then, if while her husband liveth (in the flesh) she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead (in the flesh) she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
            4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead (in the flesh) to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another (our Spirit) even Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5. For when we were in the flesh (alive in the flesh) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
            6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter (law of Moses).

            I wrote this sometime this week in another post, and I believe it is fitting to use again tonight in this one also. It is from 1st Corinthians 6:12-20 (which is what I believe Paul based his marriage principles off of) and where I believe we can all come to find out what God had planned from the beginning for marriage through the writings from Paul, who was taught by the disciples of our Lord Jesus.

            12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot?
            God forbid. 16. What? Know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? For two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one Spirit.

            In verses 12-17 Paul makes it clear how Gods Plan for marriage was suppose to be and still is suppose to be today. It is suppose to be between to people who are joined in one spirit, not in one flesh. The flesh has nothing to do with a marriage between two people in Gods eyes. Only the Spirit does, and Paul makes that very clear in those verses. In those verses a harlot is a non believer and we are not to be joined to them and if we are it is not a marriage in Gods eyes. So if they would get divorced it would not be held against them in Gods eyes. Jesus tells us in John 3:6-7, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

            When we are first born into this world we are born into this world flesh. It is not until we become born of the Spirit that we become a servant of Christ. Unfortunately, it will be very few who reach this. Jesus says so because he says that the road is very narrow and few will be on it. And when I look at the world today and listen to some of the teaching that I hear, I can see what he is talking about in that passage, as I'm sure others can also.

            Paul goes on to say in the rest of the verses starting with verse 18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19. What? know ye not that your is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your Spirit, which are God's.

            Here in verse 18 I believe Paul is telling us to leave the unbeliever if they don't want to come to Christ with us. Why? Because we are sinning against our own body or Spirit. Our new born body is holding the Spirit of God in it and we are sinning against it every single time we have intercourse with that unsaved spouse of ours.

            The Commandment that Jesus gave us was to Love one another as he has Loved us. You will find that in Matthew 13:34-35 where Jesus says "34. A new Commandment I give unto you, That you Love one another; as I have Loved you, that you also love one another. 35. By this shall all men now that ye are my disciples, IF ye have love one to another.

            That is the only Commandment that you will find that Jesus has told any of us to follow. The Commandment of Love. I can find that all over the place.

            The very one that you are referring to is also found in Matthew 15: 9-11, "9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."

            So you see my friend, the Commandment is to Love, and you are not dieing to Love, you are dieing to the law of the letter of Moses, which is what makes us sin because we can't fill that law. But we can fill the law of Love.

            Sorry for the long post.......

            Dave
            In Christ Love

            BCF

            2 Peter 1:20-21:

            "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

            Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by BCF View Post
              I never said that it was right for anyone to leave his wife for any reason. All I have ever said is that God is not in every Marriage and that Marriage is made up from Spirit and not of Flesh. That's all I have ever said.
              I agree with you.

              Civil marriage has two parties to the marriage contract: husband and wife.

              Christian marriage has three parties to the marriage contract: husband, wife, and God.

              Someone married in a civil marriage can always add God to the contract to make it a Christian marriage at any time when the husband and wife want to include God.

              The addition of God to the marriage contract clearly applies a different dynamic to that contract as compared to the civil marriage without God. Whenever God is introduced to a situation the situation changes dramatically on its face. This is the case with marriage as it is with anything else.
              “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                My issue here is that you are contradicting Scripture with your statements that we are under some "moral law". Paul makes it perfectly clear that we are not under any law. In fact, he makes it clear that we are dead to it. If you are not dead to the law then you are awaiting judgment for your sins as they are not forgiven. If you are in the faith then you are no longer under the law and its charges against you have been satisfied by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. To say we are under a "moral law" is to say that you are still under a yoke that you cannot fulfill. We do not refrain from sin because we are under some law that says not to sin. We refrain from sin for an entirely different reason. The law was not given to those who chose to seek after God's heart and do what He would have them do. The law was given to those who rebelled against God and sinned. If you aren't currently rebelling against God and living in sin then you are not under any law. That is a foundational truth of God's grace.
                After reading the above, your thread with me, and to some extent your thread with Alyssa, it has become clear to me that some of the disagreement is derived from insisting upon a very strict definition of terms - in this case "law".

                You did not seem to acknowledge in my post above when I essentially said that I was not using the term "moral law" as a term of art, but just as a term of convienience. As I said, you are free to use other useful labels such as "appropriate godly behavior" or "God's standards for living" or whatever. You also do not seem to acknowledge my recognition that Christians are saved by grace only through faith only. Instead of acknowledging my position you instead focus upon the word "law" and then restate my position precisely how I specificly did not state it.

                I will give it another go and maybe you'll see what I am saying. Again, I am not using the term "law" as a term of art.

                The fact is that God has express desires as to how Christians are to conduct themselves. Are we saved if we fullfill these? No. Are we measured by these in a legalistic sort of way? No. What do we know about them? We know two things: (1) we, by and large, know what God's desires are for Christian behavior and (2) we know that to defy God's desires is sin and to fulfill them is righteousness. Period. Again, am I saying we earn salvation? No. There is a difference between fulfilling God's desires for our lives through love and grace and fulfilling God's desires out of an attempt at personally earned holiness through fulfillment of the law.

                The point? God's universal and eternal desires for mankind's behavior does not include the ceremonial and civil laws of the Torah. God's universal and eternal desires for mankind's behavior, his moral code if you will, predates the Torah, coincides with the Torah, and postdates the Torah among Christians under the New Covenant. Among this moral code, God is clear: divorce/remarriage is inconsistent with God's desires for mankind. If something is inconsistent with God's desires it is ony one thing: sin.
                “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by BCF;1721664

                  No Alyssa, Dead to the Law, But Alive to God in Spirit
                  [/QUOTE
                  Of Course! Dead to the Ceremonial Law that Moses gave... NOT the Law of God, The Ten Commandments that are Eternal... meaning that the Law OF GOD essentially existed before Moses gave it.... beginning in the Garden.

                  Here is a quote from a study on the TC's....

                  The bible is the inspired word of God as 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us and never contradicts itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” James explains to us that Gods 10 Commandments are the “Perfect Law of liberty.” Liberty means freedom and can never equate to bondage. James 1:25, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” James later continues to show that God’s royal law of love specifically includes the Ten Commandments. James 2:8-12 “If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as thyself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

                  Notice how James tells us that if we break any of Gods 10 Commandments we are guilty of all, and it is by this perfect law of liberty that we will be judged. So how does the Bible define sin? 1 John 3:4, “Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God’s law, because sin is a breaking of the law.” Or, as the King James Version puts it, 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” So according to the Bible, sin is breaking any of Gods 10 Commandments.


                  In verses 12-17 Paul makes it clear how Gods Plan for marriage was suppose to be and still is suppose to be today. It is suppose to be between to people who are joined in one spirit, not in one flesh. The flesh has nothing to do with a marriage between two people in Gods eyes. Only the Spirit does, and Paul makes that very clear in those verses. In those verses a harlot is a non believer and we are not to be joined to them and if we are it is not a marriage in Gods eyes.


                  Then why did God tell HOSEA to marry an ADULTEROUS WOMAN? And why did God tell Hosea to go and GET his Adulterous wife and bring her back and love her?? Sure seems like He joined that marriage!!!

                  Here in verse 18 I believe Paul is telling us to leave the unbeliever if they don't want to come to Christ with us. Why? Because we are sinning against our own body or Spirit. Our new born body is holding the Spirit of God in it and we are sinning against it every single time we have intercourse with that unsaved spouse of ours.


                  No... I totally disagree with you here.

                  Paul says NOT to leave the unbeliever in 1 Cor 7:12!!! The unebelieving person is sanctified through the believing spouse. Surely Paul is not going to contradict himself!!



                  So you see my friend, the Commandment is to Love, and you are not dieing to Love, you are dieing to the law of the letter of Moses, which is what makes us sin because we can't fill that law. But we can fill the law of Love.
                  Yes, the commandment is to LOVE.. which is the greatest commandment of the TEN COMMANDMENTS that I have not died to. We are dead to the Law of Moses.... THAT WE WERE NEVER GIVEN SINCE WE ARE GENTILES. That seems so strange. How do we die to something that we were never given inthe first place?? Vertical Reality??

                  God bless and I appreciate the apology... I thank you kindly.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Of Course! Dead to the Ceremonial Law that Moses gave... NOT the Law of God, The Ten Commandments that are Eternal... meaning that the Law essentially existed before Moses gave it.... beginning in the Garden.

                    Here is a quote from a study on the TC's....

                    The bible is the inspired word of God as 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us and never contradicts itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” James explains to us that Gods 10 Commandments are the “Perfect Law of liberty.” Liberty means freedom and can never equate to bondage. James 1:25, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” James later continues to show that God’s royal law of love specifically includes the Ten Commandments. James 2:8-12 “If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as thyself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

                    Notice how James tells us that if we break any of Gods 10 Commandments we are guilty of all, and it is by this perfect law of liberty that we will be judged. So how does the Bible define sin? 1 John 3:4, “Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God’s law, because sin is a breaking of the law.” Or, as the King James Version puts it, 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” So according to the Bible, sin is breaking any of Gods 10 Commandments.




                    Then why did God tell HOSEA to marry an ADULTEROUS WOMAN? And why did God tell Hosea to go and GET his Adulterous wife and bring her back and love her?? Sure seems like He joined that marriage!!!



                    No... I totally disagree with you here.

                    Paul says NOT to leave the unbeliever in 1 Cor 7:12!!! The unebelieving person is sanctified through the believing spouse. Surely Paul is not going to contradict himself!!





                    Yes, the commandment is to LOVE.. which is the greatest commandment of the TEN COMMANDMENTS that I have not died to. We are dead to the Law of Moses.... THAT WE WERE NEVER GIVEN SINCE WE ARE GENTILES. That seems so strange. How do we die to something that we were never given inthe first place?? Vertical Reality??

                    God bless and I appreciate the apology... I thank you kindly. [/quote]

                    Allow me to reiterate my post above. The confusion in this discussion is the different uses of the word "law. Alyssa is not using the term to refer to the "Torah" and "the Law" as the thing God set down amongst the Jews for them to find ways to fufill and can only show us our inability to be holy. I think Alyssa would acknowledge that Christians are dead to the "the Law" inasmuch as Christians are dead to the terms of the Old Covenant.

                    If I can speak for Alyssa, she is using the term to refer to God's desires/standards for how his people are to conduct themselves. Under the New Covenant there is certainly no "law" as under there is under the Old. There is only grace and love. However, God still has expectations and tells us that some things are sin and some are not and these expectations are consistent with the grace and love of the New Covenant.
                    “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that first place both of credit and obedience is due; the next whereunto is whatsoever any man can necessarily conclude by force of reason; after these the voice of the Church succeedeth. That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason over-rule all other inferior judgments whatsoever” ( Laws, Book V, 8:2; Folger Edition 2:39,8-14).

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Alyssa S View Post
                      There's a difference from Moses' law and God's Royal Law.
                      Show me the difference laid out in Scripture. I don't need to see what you've been taught or what you have read from others. Show me from the Word of God where it distinguishes between some "royal" law and the law that Paul says we are dead to . . .

                      Are the clear Scriptures that I referenced for you above lying?

                      I am dead to loving the Lord God with all my heart and loving my neighbor as myself? Whoa!
                      You need a law to tell you to love the Lord your God? Is that the only reason you love Him? I don't see understanding in your comments about why the law was given. The law was not given to folks who love the Lord. They were given to folks who did not. If I were to ask you, "Why do you love the Lord," I would hope that you wouldn't say, "Because there is a law telling me I have to."

                      Revelation 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, ( NOT DIE TO THEM) that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      Jesus said,If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
                      "IF YOU LOVE ME".... which is the GREATEST of the Ten Commandments....Loving Him!

                      Uhhh... I think Jesus, God himself, said to KEEP the Commandments... not die to them.
                      Indeed, those who love Him will keep them. But the real question you don't seem to be understanding here is why. When you walk in the Spirit you will automatically fulfill the requirement of the law. Not because you are alive to the law, but because you are dead to it. Do you not see this truth? You fulfill the law because it should no longer be you who lives but Christ who lives in you. You should be crucified with Him having died to what you were held by (the law).

                      I mean really this is simple logic, Alyssa. Do you refrain from murdering people only because you are afraid to go to jail and be prosecuted by the law of the land, or do you refrain from murdering people because you rejoice in all that is good and holy? The Scriptures could not be more clear, Alyssa. The law is not for the righteous. The law is for the sinner.

                      Now, address the clear Scriptures I laid out for you above. Does Paul not say very clearly in Romans 7 that those in Christ are dead to the law? Yes or no? Does Paul not say very clearly in 2 Corinthians 3 that the old covenant, written and engraved on stones, is not for those who are part of the ministry of the Spirit? Does it say this . . . yes or no?

                      Additionally, here's another question for you . . .

                      When two parties make a covenant . . . what binds that covenant?
                      "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                      -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                        I agree with you.

                        Civil marriage has two parties to the marriage contract: husband and wife.

                        Christian marriage has three parties to the marriage contract: husband, wife, and God.

                        Someone married in a civil marriage can always add God to the contract to make it a Christian marriage at any time when the husband and wife want to include God.

                        The addition of God to the marriage contract clearly applies a different dynamic to that contract as compared to the civil marriage without God. Whenever God is introduced to a situation the situation changes dramatically on its face. This is the case with marriage as it is with anything else.
                        This has been my point the entire time. However, some in this thread are stating that those who are not of God are still joined by Him. I do not believe this to be the case.
                        "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                        -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          [quote]
                          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                          Show me the difference laid out in Scripture. I don't need to see what you've been taught or what you have read from others. Show me from the Word of God where it distinguishes between some "royal" law and the law that Paul says we are dead to . . .
                          "SOME" ROYAL Law?? I quoted you Scripture brother! Did you even read what I said or are you just in it for the sake of winning an argument? What I posted for you was SCRIPTURE...

                          Here it is again...

                          The bible is the inspired word of God as 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us and never contradicts itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” James explains to us that Gods 10 Commandments are the “Perfect Law of liberty.” Liberty means freedom and can never equate to bondage. James 1:25, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” James later continues to show that God’s royal law of love specifically includes the Ten Commandments. James 2:8-12 “If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as thyself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

                          Notice how James tells us that if we break any of Gods 10 Commandments we are guilty of all, and it is by this perfect law of liberty that we will be judged. So how does the Bible define sin? 1 John 3:4, “Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God’s law, because sin is a breaking of the law.” Or, as the King James Version puts it, 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” So according to the Bible, sin is breaking any of Gods 10 Commandments.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Alyssa S View Post
                            Hi RabbiKnife....

                            Why is it that for 1500 years the church believed marriage was till death? I realize the early church fathers were not infallable... but doesn't it seem strange that those who lived closest to Christ and Paul's time did not allow remarriage in their creeds as well as those who lived throughout the years till the time of the Reformation?
                            The church for almost 1500 years also thought people like you and I were too stupid to read the bible for ourselves, so they kept it in latin.
                            For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

                            If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

                            Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by seamus414 View Post
                              After reading the above, your thread with me, and to some extent your thread with Alyssa, it has become clear to me that some of the disagreement is derived from insisting upon a very strict definition of terms - in this case "law".

                              You did not seem to acknowledge in my post above when I essentially said that I was not using the term "moral law" as a term of art, but just as a term of convienience. As I said, you are free to use other useful labels such as "appropriate godly behavior" or "God's standards for living" or whatever. You also do not seem to acknowledge my recognition that Christians are saved by grace only through faith only. Instead of acknowledging my position you instead focus upon the word "law" and then restate my position precisely how I specificly did not state it.

                              I will give it another go and maybe you'll see what I am saying. Again, I am not using the term "law" as a term of art.

                              The fact is that God has express desires as to how Christians are to conduct themselves. Are we saved if we fullfill these? No. Are we measured by these in a legalistic sort of way? No. What do we know about them? We know two things: (1) we, by and large, know what God's desires are for Christian behavior and (2) we know that to defy God's desires is sin and to fulfill them is righteousness. Period. Again, am I saying we earn salvation? No. There is a difference between fulfilling God's desires for our lives through love and grace and fulfilling God's desires out of an attempt at personally earned holiness through fulfillment of the law.

                              The point? God's universal and eternal desires for mankind's behavior does not include the ceremonial and civil laws of the Torah. God's universal and eternal desires for mankind's behavior, his moral code if you will, predates the Torah, coincides with the Torah, and postdates the Torah among Christians under the New Covenant. Among this moral code, God is clear: divorce/remarriage is inconsistent with God's desires for mankind. If something is inconsistent with God's desires it is ony one thing: sin.
                              Stating things like law, moral code, holy requirements or anything of the like all means the same thing. It's all law in the end.

                              What I am saying here is this . . .

                              Born again Christians do not do what is good and holy because:

                              1) They are required to
                              2) Because a law says to
                              3) Because a code says to
                              4) Because ***enter here any other reason other than love***

                              We do what is right and good because we love the Lord and we now love holiness. That is it. It's not a code that makes us do right. It's not a law that makes us do right. It is the Spirit of God that shows us the way. That's grace.
                              "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                              -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Alyssa S View Post
                                "SOME" ROYAL Law?? I quoted you Scripture brother! Did you even read what I said or are you just in it for the sake of winning an argument? What I posted for you was SCRIPTURE...

                                Here it is again...

                                The bible is the inspired word of God as 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us and never contradicts itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” James explains to us that Gods 10 Commandments are the “Perfect Law of liberty.” Liberty means freedom and can never equate to bondage. James 1:25, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” James later continues to show that God’s royal law of love specifically includes the Ten Commandments. James 2:8-12 “If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as thyself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

                                Notice how James tells us that if we break any of Gods 10 Commandments we are guilty of all, and it is by this perfect law of liberty that we will be judged. So how does the Bible define sin? 1 John 3:4, “Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God’s law, because sin is a breaking of the law.” Or, as the King James Version puts it, 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” So according to the Bible, sin is breaking any of Gods 10 Commandments.
                                What is James talking about, Alyssa? He is talking about love. He is not talking about a law that is written and engraved on stones. He is not talking about a handwriting of requirements. He is talking about love. That is it. No law that Paul says that we are dead to. Are you going to address those clear Scriptures I gave to you or not? Why do you insist on dodging them? You dodge them because they clearly show that your position here is faulty. You actually prove my point with your last post. We do good because we LOVE God and LOVE people. We do not do good because there is a written law saying we have to.

                                It's amazing to me that you continue to prove my point and all the while insist that I'm wrong.

                                And once again, since you continuously dodge my questions . . .

                                When two parties make a covenant . . . what is it that binds that covenant?
                                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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