Which comes first?

[mikebr]

Forgiveness or Repentance? IOW does the knowledge of being forgiven lead to repentance or are we forgiven after we repent?

[Bethany67]

I think the order goes:

Conviction -> repentance -> forgiveness

[mikebr]

I think the order goes:

Conviction -> repentance -> forgiveness

I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.

[Bethany67]

I see where you're coming from; I was speaking from the perspective of the human perception. We are not personally forgiven ie. benefit from that forgiveness until we repent.

[Brother Mark]

I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.

Matt 6:14-15

14 " For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
NASU

This passage indicates that we must first forgive, before we can be forgiven.

Having said that, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance. Knowing he will forgive us, motivates us to repent. But one is not forgiven before one repents.

[Athanasius]

Conviction --> Repentence --> Conviction --> Forgiveness of others

[mikebr]

So what Christ did on the cross was to simply make a way for us to be forgiven? Read 2 Cor 5 and tell me what was going on.

[watchinginawe]

I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.

I agree with that. But I also believe that forgiveness is efficacious only for those who receive it. Experiencing is actually being forgiven. We receive forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

God Bless!

[Brother Mark]

So what Christ did on the cross was to simply make a way for us to be forgiven? Read 2 Cor 5 and tell me what was going on.

Here's another verse to ponder...


Matt 12:31

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
KJV

Jesus is making it clear here that this sin will never be forgiven. I suppose then, that forgiveness is not a fact.

[mikebr]

maybe i'm confusing forgiveness with reconciliation.

[mikebr]

John Calvin says that “a man cannot apply himself seriously to repentance without knowing himself to belong to God. But no one is truly persuaded that he belongs to God unless he has first recognized God’s grace” (Institutes, III.2).

[BroRog]

maybe i'm confusing forgiveness with reconciliation.

I don't think you are confusing them Mike. Just as God requires us to forgive first, he also forgives first. Reconciliation is the result the final step. So, given your diagram, it looks like this.

Forgiveness > Conviction > Repentance > Reconciliation.

I think of it in terms of two estranged parties; each of them is turned back-to-back away from each other. When God forgives, he has turned around to face man. But man must also turn around to face God in repentance. Once each party turns front-to-front reconciliation can take place.

[mikebr]

Here's another verse to ponder...


Matt 12:31

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
KJV

Jesus is making it clear here that this sin will never be forgiven. I suppose then, that forgiveness is not a fact.

Are you saying that the Gospel is the good news of what is possible rather than the good news of what is?

Great news you can be forgiven if...................

or

Great news, you are forgiven now............................

the first seems to be faith in my faith, goodness, or repentance while the second is faith in Christ.

[mikebr]

I don't think you are confusing them Mike. Just as God requires us to forgive first, he also forgives first. Reconciliation is the result the final step. So, given your diagram, it looks like this.

Forgiveness > Conviction > Repentance > Reconciliation.

I think of it in terms of two estranged parties; each of them is turned back-to-back away from each other. When God forgives, he has turned around to face man. But man must also turn around to face God in repentance. Once each party turns front-to-front reconciliation can take place.

The problem is that God never turned His back on me.

as already quoted "the kindness of God leads us to repentance.

[Brother Mark]

Are you saying that the Gospel is the good news of what is possible rather than the good news of what is?

Great news you can be forgiven if...................

or

Great news, you are forgiven now............................

the first seems to be faith in my faith, goodness, or repentance while the second is faith in Christ.

Yes, I am saying the gospel has with it an "if". Jesus preached "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

There is danger in placing "faith" in our faith. The object of our faith is most important! But if our faith is in the wrong person, we are doomed. Scripture says that for by grace we are saved, through faith. Faith is necessary but the Object of our faith is most necessary.


The good news is you can be forgiven if you repent. Here's a parable that explains it.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
NASB

So we see the one was forgiven and the other was not. The publican was forgiven yet the pharisee was not.