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  • women in the clergy

    you may have seen the news story about 3 catholic women that are being ordained in some ceremony not approved by the catholic church. the church has publicly stated they will be excommunicated if they participate.

    i've always heard women are not to have roles in the clergy. apparently there are some who disagree. i've never really researched it. i just know at my church there are no deacons, elders or clergy that are women. there are teachers though.

    what do you think? should a women pastor be allowed? how about a deacon? surely a woman could lead a Bible study group.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Steve509 View Post
    you may have seen the news story about 3 catholic women that are being ordained in some ceremony not approved by the catholic church. the church has publicly stated they will be excommunicated if they participate.

    i've always heard women are not to have roles in the clergy. apparently there are some who disagree. i've never really researched it. i just know at my church there are no deacons, elders or clergy that are women. there are teachers though.

    what do you think? should a women pastor be allowed? how about a deacon? surely a woman could lead a Bible study group.
    I just keep it simple and take what is written in the bible for direction.
    If you want to be biblical do what is laid out in the bible, if you dont want to do that then accept women as clergy. But once the line is crossed there are no more boundries and the door is open for all, like gay clergy and others that are not suitable on biblical grounds.

    So it's a can of worms and i would not personally go to a church that has strayed from the biblical format. No matter how out of date or un P.C it may seem.


    Comment


    • #3
      11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

      12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
      13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

      That pretty much sums it up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by theleast View Post
        11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
        You must have missed the word learn. I'd most certainly want women, or men, or children to learn in silence and with subjection. Otherwise it's chaos. This verse, because I know someone is going to say it, does not exclude women from teaching, it only addresses proper learning.

        Originally posted by theleast View Post
        12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
        13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

        That pretty much sums it up.
        The second word in verse 12, I "suffer not a woman..." This is Paul's commandment. Paul also wishes that we don't get married, would all speak in tongues and be like him. Lots of cultural reasons for this, and that's where it stays--ancient culture.

        Verse 13 is interesting, why would Paul command such a thing knowing that creation has been corrupted? Such a command is inviting abuse on the part of men (look through history, you'll see it). It's also interesting to note that while the woman was deceived, Adam willfully disobeyed.

        So I respectfully disagree, the above 'sums' up nothing. Especially when you start getting into women leaders mentioned in the Bible (Phoebe, anyone?)

        As for the original question, I don't see why not.

        Comment


        • #5
          Absolutely women can be pastors or deacons or elders.

          Originally posted by Steve509 View Post
          you may have seen the news story about 3 catholic women that are being ordained in some ceremony not approved by the catholic church. the church has publicly stated they will be excommunicated if they participate.

          i've always heard women are not to have roles in the clergy. apparently there are some who disagree. i've never really researched it. i just know at my church there are no deacons, elders or clergy that are women. there are teachers though.

          what do you think? should a women pastor be allowed? how about a deacon? surely a woman could lead a Bible study group.
          Amazzin

          Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

          CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
            You must have missed the word learn. I'd most certainly want women, or men, or children to learn in silence and with subjection. Otherwise it's chaos. This verse, because I know someone is going to say it, does not exclude women from teaching, it only addresses proper learning.



            The second word in verse 12, I "suffer not a woman..." This is Paul's commandment. Paul also wishes that we don't get married, would all speak in tongues and be like him. Lots of cultural reasons for this, and that's where it stays--ancient culture.

            Verse 13 is interesting, why would Paul command such a thing knowing that creation has been corrupted? Such a command is inviting abuse on the part of men (look through history, you'll see it). It's also interesting to note that while the woman was deceived, Adam willfully disobeyed.

            So I respectfully disagree, the above 'sums' up nothing. Especially when you start getting into women leaders mentioned in the Bible (Phoebe, anyone?)

            As for the original question, I don't see why not.


            wow, I have never noticed that before..amazing how we overlook these things ...the Bible is so amazing. It is alive and yet the same word (cause it never changes) but is new everyday..cause you learn something everyday from it ..from verses that i have studied before over and over and never saw that.

            I agree with wome being called. Many women were used in the bible. there were women prophets. We are told in later days that women would be used.
            But, I think that some are not called..they are filled with the spirit of Jezebel..and only wanting some kind of women rights ..feminists..
            I am a women by the way.

            But, yes women are called. God speaks through them too. But many may disagree. But they have that right.

            Comment


            • #7
              Women can't become priests in the RCC, because the RCC teaches that a priest acts in the person of Christ( in persona christi) who was a man.

              Christ himself chose twelve men as his disciples.

              In my opinion there can never be women priests in the RCC.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                You must have missed the word learn. I'd most certainly want women, or men, or children to learn in silence and with subjection. Otherwise it's chaos. This verse, because I know someone is going to say it, does not exclude women from teaching, it only addresses proper learning.



                The second word in verse 12, I "suffer not a woman..." This is Paul's commandment. Paul also wishes that we don't get married, would all speak in tongues and be like him. Lots of cultural reasons for this, and that's where it stays--ancient culture.

                Verse 13 is interesting, why would Paul command such a thing knowing that creation has been corrupted? Such a command is inviting abuse on the part of men (look through history, you'll see it). It's also interesting to note that while the woman was deceived, Adam willfully disobeyed.

                So I respectfully disagree, the above 'sums' up nothing. Especially when you start getting into women leaders mentioned in the Bible (Phoebe, anyone?)

                As for the original question, I don't see why not.
                This interpretation really doesn't work. In the verses prior Paul says that he wishes that the men pray and not lift up holy hands in anger. He also wishes that women be modest in their apparel. Are we to believe this too is just an opinion? Does Romans 7:18 mean nothing good dwells in all of us, or just Paul? Is all of Romans 8 an opinion since Paul says, "I consider the present sufferings not worth comparing..."? What about 2 Timothy 4:1 where Paul states that, "I charge you..."?

                Just because Paul says, "I urge" does not mean it is an opinion. Only once do we see this occur in the Pauline epistles, and it prefaces it by saying it is an opinion (albeit a wise one) and not a command of God. This means Paul understood his writings were authoritative and inspired and had to specify when they were not. Likewise, there are other passages where Paul does not say "I urge," but address similar material. The fact is, Paul's manner of speech is different in the Pastoral epistles than from his other epistles (which is why many say he didn't write the pastoral epistles - there's that much of a difference). So Paul saying, "I urge" does not denote anything.

                Instead, we simply aren't understanding what this verse means. Teach does not apply to all instances of "teaching." The Greek word here (didasko, cognate of didaskalia and didaskalos) is generally used to describe authoritative doctrinal teaching. The Bible makes it clear that though we all teach the Gospel, not all of us are called to be doctrinal teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28-30, Ephesians 4:11). Likewise, the Bible is not forbidding all teaching. It is only referring to matters of authoritative doctrine and even this is only done when dealing with men (andros).

                There is a Biblical economy between the male/female relationship within marriage and within Church. It is best if we follow it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by apothanein kerdos
                  This interpretation really doesn't work. In the verses prior Paul says that he wishes that the men pray and not lift up holy hands in anger. He also wishes that women be modest in their apparel. Are we to believe this too is just an opinion? Does Romans 7:18 mean nothing good dwells in all of us, or just Paul? Is all of Romans 8 an opinion since Paul says, "I consider the present sufferings not worth comparing..."? What about 2 Timothy 4:1 where Paul states that, "I charge you..."?

                  Just because Paul says, "I urge" does not mean it is an opinion. Only once do we see this occur in the Pauline epistles, and it prefaces it by saying it is an opinion (albeit a wise one) and not a command of God. This means Paul understood his writings were authoritative and inspired and had to specify when they were not. Likewise, there are other passages where Paul does not say "I urge," but address similar material. The fact is, Paul's manner of speech is different in the Pastoral epistles than from his other epistles (which is why many say he didn't write the pastoral epistles - there's that much of a difference). So Paul saying, "I urge" does not denote anything.

                  Instead, we simply aren't understanding what this verse means. Teach does not apply to all instances of "teaching." The Greek word here (didasko, cognate of didaskalia and didaskalos) is generally used to describe authoritative doctrinal teaching. The Bible makes it clear that though we all teach the Gospel, not all of us are called to be doctrinal teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28-30, Ephesians 4:11). Likewise, the Bible is not forbidding all teaching. It is only referring to matters of authoritative doctrine and even this is only done when dealing with men (andros).

                  There is a Biblical economy between the male/female relationship within marriage and within Church. It is best if we follow it.
                  If we took all of Paul's words as literal, several hundred thousand churches would shut down, because if women "keep silent" as you would have them do, then the infrastructure of the Body of Christ cannot maintain itself.

                  God will call whom He will call, to paperwork, musicianship, teaching, witnessing, and preaching FROM THE PULPIT...
                  Last edited by quiet dove; Jul 23rd 2008, 06:26 PM. Reason: edited one comment
                  Always give God credit first.

                  "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
                  -Sir Toby, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare

                  James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
                    If we took all of Paul's words as literal, several hundred thousand churches would shut down, because if women "keep silent" as you would have them do, then the infrastructure of the Body of Christ cannot maintain itself.

                    God will call whom He will call, to paperwork, musicianship, teaching, witnessing, and preaching FROM THE PULPIT...
                    So the pragmatic consequences outweigh the Biblical Truth? That's certainly erroneous.

                    Paul was saying that women needed to learn in silence - it says nothing about them remaining silent all the time, merely in their learning. This means being peaceable and not questioning or challenging the authority.

                    And that's just bad taste to start calling people unnecessary names.
                    Last edited by quiet dove; Jul 23rd 2008, 06:27 PM. Reason: edited quoted material

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apothanein kerdos
                      So the pragmatic consequences outweigh the Biblical Truth? That's certainly erroneous.

                      Paul was saying that women needed to learn in silence - it says nothing about them remaining silent all the time, merely in their learning. This means being peaceable and not questioning or challenging the authority.

                      And that's just bad taste to start calling people unnecessary names.
                      It's more erroneous to ignore cultural and historical context in favor of personal opinion on church policy.

                      The pragmatic consequences outweigh your personal choice to ignore Paul's target audience.

                      How is your version of "learning in silence" any different from the Muslim law of women not being allowed to speak unless first spoken to by a man?

                      Neither allow a woman to express herself and challenge what may be outdated social and religious practices.
                      Always give God credit first.

                      "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
                      -Sir Toby, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare

                      James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's more erroneous to ignore cultural and historical context in favor of personal opinion on church policy.
                        Considering Paul's commands are found elsewhere and that all other commands in the pastoral epistles are universal, how in the world can you justify saying it's only a cultural command? Care to defend this claim?

                        The pragmatic consequences outweigh your personal choice to ignore Paul's target audience.
                        So now we're using consequentialism with pragmatism? Ever going to use Christian philosophy, or are we stuck using the philosophy of John Dewey and John Stuart Mill?

                        If what Paul is saying is universal and transcends cultures, then nothing can outweigh it.

                        How is your version of "learning in silence" any different from the Muslim law of women not being allowed to speak unless first spoken to by a man?
                        They're vastly different. For one, the Muslim law is based on the view that women are ontologically lower than men. In the Christian view, women are viewed as ontological equals with men, but when it comes to authoritarian roles women are in the submissive role. Authority, of course, does not denote importance unless you're an egomaniacal dictator - are you one? Of course that question is rhetorical. My point is authority doesn't denote importance - just because men have been given more authority doesn't mean they're more important.

                        Secondly, women are most certainly allowed to speak up, just not in an authoritative manner on doctrinal issues. She can talk on doctrine, teach on doctrine, learn about doctrine, etc - she just can't teach in an authoritative position (i.e. as a pastor).

                        Neither allow a woman to express herself and challenge what may be outdated social and religious practices.
                        Boo hoo?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                          You must have missed the word learn. I'd most certainly want women, or men, or children to learn in silence and with subjection. Otherwise it's chaos. This verse, because I know someone is going to say it, does not exclude women from teaching, it only addresses proper learning.



                          The second word in verse 12, I "suffer not a woman..." This is Paul's commandment. Paul also wishes that we don't get married, would all speak in tongues and be like him. Lots of cultural reasons for this, and that's where it stays--ancient culture.

                          Verse 13 is interesting, why would Paul command such a thing knowing that creation has been corrupted? Such a command is inviting abuse on the part of men (look through history, you'll see it). It's also interesting to note that while the woman was deceived, Adam willfully disobeyed.

                          So I respectfully disagree, the above 'sums' up nothing. Especially when you start getting into women leaders mentioned in the Bible (Phoebe, anyone?)

                          As for the original question, I don't see why not.
                          This post fell apart when you said that creation has been corrupted.

                          31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by amazzin View Post
                            Absolutely women can be pastors or deacons or elders.
                            Of course they can be, the question is SHOULD THEY BE...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by servant of Lord View Post
                              wow, I have never noticed that before..amazing how we overlook these things ...the Bible is so amazing. It is alive and yet the same word (cause it never changes) but is new everyday..cause you learn something everyday from it ..from verses that i have studied before over and over and never saw that.

                              I agree with wome being called. Many women were used in the bible. there were women prophets. We are told in later days that women would be used.
                              But, I think that some are not called..they are filled with the spirit of Jezebel..and only wanting some kind of women rights ..feminists..
                              I am a women by the way.

                              But, yes women are called. God speaks through them too. But many may disagree. But they have that right.
                              Yes women can be called, and God speaks through women.

                              I don't think that is keeping with the OP however.

                              If women are supposed to teach...why did Christ pick twelve men?

                              Comment

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