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  • Discussion About the Physical Fulfillment of the Feasts...

    Blessings and Salutations to my Brothers and Sisters in Messiah,

    The purpose of this discussion is NOT to set dates, NOR is is to diminish the atoning sacrifice of our Redeemer. Please carefully consider what you offer in your posts. Any posts that violate the OP in this fashion, I ask that the post be either edited for content by the poster or removed by the Moderators.

    The purpose of this discussion is to examine what we know actually occurred in the ministry of the Messiah and how it relates to the prophetic implications of His Sacred Feasts.

    It is said by some that Messiah fulfilled all the Feasts in His ministry and in a symbolic sense, I can certainly see their position. But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled all the Feasts, then the claim becomes untenable.

    It is said by others Messiah fulfilled the Spring Feasts and that He will come back and fulfill the Fall Feasts. And that is what I believed until recently. But I have changed my mind in the face of physical evidence and OT revelation concerning the coronation of the kings of scripture.

    This understanding of physical fulfillment flows from the fact that Messiah became that Passover Lamb. That the leaven in the Feast of Unleavened Bread represents pride and Yahshua (Jesus) humbled Himself unto death. That He was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits and He is called the Firstfruits of the Resurrection and the Firstfruits of those who slept. And the fulfillment of Pentecost is attributed to Him because He sent His Holy Spirit that believers would be baptised in Holy Fire.

    But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled the Spring Feast, then that claim too becomes untenable. Because scripture clearly states that our Messiah physically ascended before Pentecost.

    This started me thinking about how something I heard long ago about discrepancies in the dates of the reigns of some of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah. The explanation was simple. It seems that a person could be assume the reigns of the kingdom at any time during the year, but would not be officially coroneted until the Fall Feast of Trumpets when the main population of adult men could be present - after the fall harvest.

    So this started me thinking about when Messiah assumes the reigns of power versus when He returns versus when He is crowned. It seems that they are three different events. And following the logic of those that profess His fulfillment of the Spring Feasts, He would have to return before Pentecost - not Trumpets.

    Brothers and Sisters, you have the floor.

    Offered in His Love,
    Phillip
    Shalom


    sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  • #2
    WOW! I thought saying that Messiah did NOT fulfill the Spring Feasts would provoke a little more response. Oh well, what do I know?
    Shalom


    sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well Tal,
      not everyone goes this deep, and i personally have my mind crammed with a ton of worldy issues that are needing to be dealt with.
      I am however thinking about what you wrote and i will perhaps in the near future be able to comment.

      This OP of yours s one of those that has to be slowley stewed on, and then once it reaches boiling point it will rapidly produce somethinbg with sweet flavor to be set before many more LOL...

      I'll stew for a while!

      Tanja
      Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
      2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
      If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
      http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



      Comment


      • #4

        I am still trying to mull it over
        The LORD is my Miracle

        G_d was gracious He has shown favor


        Hope is a seed
        God plants in our hearts
        to remind us
        there are better things ahead.
        -Holley Gerth

        Comment


        • #5
          I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. That's my take on it.

          God Bless!
          II Timothy 2:15
          Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
          Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
            I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. That's my take on it.

            God Bless!
            I agree with you S2S. I think he fulfilled Pentecost through the Holy Spirit. As John the baptist stated, Jesus was the Lamb. I take that to mean the Passover Lamb.
            Matt 9:13
            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
            NASU

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
              I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. That's my take on it.

              God Bless!
              No disrespect intended, dear sister, but that is not what scripture says. If your position was correct, why would He say that He needed to physically leave?

              No Denise, He is not physically here. His Spirit is. And His spiritual manifestation cannot fulfill the requirements of the Messiah, else the Pillar of Fire and Cloud would have been enough.

              • Messiah fulfilled the role of the Pesach Lamb - physically.
              • He fulfilled Unleavened Bread by humbling Himself unto death - physically.
              • He arose again on the third day, the day of Firstfruits as the 'firstfruits of those who slept' - physically.
              • He ascended - physically - before Shavuot, before Pentecost.
              • The Messiah has assumed the office of High Priest in heaven - physically.
              • Just like He will return - physically.
              • And I believe He will ultimately fulfill Shavuot - physically.

              Here is what I mean:
              • Shavuot (Pentecost) is said to be the anniversary of the giving of the Ten Commandments on Sinai.
              • Then it was the day that the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit - and had His commandments written on their hearts.
              • And upon His return, He will enforce His commandments with a rod of iron - physically.

              Do you see a pattern here?
              Shalom


              sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                I agree with you S2S. I think he fulfilled Pentecost through the Holy Spirit. As John the baptist stated, Jesus was the Lamb. I take that to mean the Passover Lamb.
                Hi Mark!
                I agree with everything you said except you conclusions. (Sorry brother, I couldn't resist. Forgive me?)

                See my explanation above.
                Shalom


                sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by talmidim View Post
                  Hi Mark!
                  I agree with everything you said except you conclusions. (Sorry brother, I couldn't resist. Forgive me?)

                  See my explanation above.
                  LOL! Well, you aren't the first to disagree with my conclusions. Though you are the first to agree with everything except those.

                  Interesting indeed! I knew that Pentecost was tied to Sinai and the giving of the 10 with the giving of the Holy Spirit. As a side note, it's interesting too that at Sinai, 3000 died that day while at Pentecost, 3000 were saved. So, the rod of "iron" that was used at Sinai will again be used in the future. Interesting thought.

                  But a question... is it possible that the law was written into the hearts of believers when Jesus breathed on the disciples and said "receive ye the holy Spirit"? Perhaps he did do it at Pentecost in keeping with the theme of Sinai.
                  Matt 9:13
                  13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                  NASU

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Phillip,

                    Was the Father physically (incarnate) at Sinai for the giving of the Law? Or was it His Spirit? But as I said before, I believe your theory is flawed MAINLY because even you would not deny that He was definitely here 'physically' for the first three. I have pondered in the past that it could be the first 3 that have been fulfilled with Pentecost being like a middle ground between the first 3 and the last 3. I just don't see how you could deny that He did indeed fulfill the first 3.

                    As I mentioned to you elsewhere, something else I have been considering is that the Feast of Weeks signifies the end of the wheat harvest. Wheat is for bread and in God's economy the bread is the word of God. Shavuot is 50 days after First Fruit and from the first Apostolic book of scripture to the last (canonized) is about 50 years. Thus scripture is closed. No additional scriptures! The book is closed and the wheat (bread/scripture) harvest is done. We can discuss up and down the possibilities for fulfillment of Shavuot but I can not see how the fulfillment of the first 3 can be denied.

                    God Bless!
                    II Timothy 2:15
                    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                    Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm sorry Denise. I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.

                      I don't see how you could think that I was denying the first three were fulfilled. I stated explicitly that they had been fulfilled. I was just pointing out that Pentecost had NOT been fulfilled by Messiah physically - while the other Spring Feast HAD been fulfilled physically. And I was speculating about the prophetic meaning of that fact concerning the manner and timing of His return.
                      Shalom


                      sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, and about Sinai. John seemed to think that it was the preincarnate Messiah on Sinai and not the Father. Intimating that the Messiah needs to be, well incarnate.
                        Shalom


                        sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by talmidim View Post
                          Oh, and about Sinai. John seemed to think that it was the preincarnate Messiah on Sinai and not the Father. Intimating that the Messiah needs to be, well incarnate.
                          Okay, I'm glad I completely misunderstood you about the first 3.

                          Your terminology (pre-incarnate) regarding Sinai seems to bolster the fact that a physical 'carnate' Messiah was not in flesh and blood there for the giving of the Law. Which for me seems to support that He did not need to be physically, flesh and blood there for its fulfillment.

                          I still think it is interesting to look at the dynamics of how the feasts are positioned. 3 right together in the beginning, within days of each other and 3 right together at the end, within days of each other. Shavuot is the odd man out in that it is off by itself almost 2 months after the first 3 and a few months before the last 3. Which, for me, seems to point to the fact that though it will be fulfilled separately, it will be closer to the first 3 than the last. Because of this, I don't see a fulfillment just before the last 3 are physically fulfilled but believe it was fulfilled closer to the first 3.

                          God Bless!
                          II Timothy 2:15
                          Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                          Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi, Talmidim.

                            Ever noticed that Shavuot comes the day after the completion of 7 x 7 days, on the 5oth day, just as Yovel (the Jubilee year) comes the year after the completion of 7 x 7 years (the 50th year)?

                            The Jubilee year represents the first year of Messiah's Kingdom, when the earth has been restored to its owner, the Messiah.

                            What did Joel prophesy would come immediately after "the Day of the LORD"?

                            "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
                            And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2: 28-32).

                            The word afterward in Joe.2: 28 is translated from the hebrew wrods achar ken, meaning following after.

                            What happened on the Day of Pentecost?

                            I've said it before and I'll say it again: Because the cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years are CYCLES OF TIME, the prophecies of the Bible are like the books contained in a cart which is being drawn along by a horse called "the interaction of Israel with the nations" around a huge CIRCULAR track called "time" - MANY prophecies are fulfilled MORE THAN ONCE - but the prophecy ULTIMATELY refers to THE LAST TIME it will occur - such as Psalm 118, which refers ULTIMATELY to the salvation of JACOB by His Messiah.

                            The apostle Peter KNEW that Joel.2: 28-32 referred to the beginning of Messiah's Kingdom. The book of Acts translates the word AFTERWARD in Joe.2: 28 as in the last days - BUT Acts was written in Greek long after the Day of Pentecost by Luke. who used the Greek word eschatos to translate THE HEBREW words achar ken ("following AFTER THE DAY OF THE LORD).

                            ESCHATOS (eschatology) refers to the end times + the days FOLLOWING the last days.

                            ananias.
                            "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

                            And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

                            Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
                            (Mat.23: 8-10)

                            AND

                            "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

                            By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
                            (Joh.13: 34-35)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have not been able to mull this over efficiently, because i've simply got too much on my plate right now. (prayers anyone?)

                              Suffice to say, to me the whole concept makes sense, as i fully believe and have believed for some time now, that everything that is spiritual will also manifest itself in or on the physical plane.
                              Therefore i have no doubt that Yeshua will need to fulfill the feasts that have not yet been physically fulfilled in a physical manner.

                              Just as we are to realize our spiritual walk in the flesh and thus producing fruit, something that can be observed by anyone in a physical way.

                              That's all i can contribute at this time.

                              Shalom,
                              Tanja
                              Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                              2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                              If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                              http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                              Comment

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