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  • Discussion GOD's Choice or My Choice

    Predestined or Not?

    I know this is a confusing circular argument, but bare with me.


    Are our lives predestined by God since before time or were we created and given the ability to choose our own paths?

    Do we create our own destiny, or do we have a chosen destiny.

    I'll start with this and let you all give me some feed back before I get into some of the more controversial issues of this topic.
    Laughing at the world
    Watching it bend
    Enjoying the show
    Just waiting for the end

    Not worried a bit
    as I walk through the mist
    By God I will sit
    And watch the world twist

    In Him I will trust
    And only Him I will fear
    When the world turns to dust
    I know He'll be near

  • #2
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

    I believe what this passage, and others like it, says. God chooses us. We are predestined. And it was all due to the good pleasure of His will.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Amen! But on the other hand, Scripture teaches that we are all responsible beings and that no one can shake their fist at God on the last day and say "It's because of YOU I'm in Hell! Because YOU didn't predestine me!"

      Every individual in hell is there by their own choosing.
      Every individual in heaven is there by God's choosing - and their own!

      Comment


      • #4
        time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.

        we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

        dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.

        we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fewarechosen View Post
          time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.
          True - but the word predestined conveys clearly that God destined us to be His people before time began - eternity is linear, like time - it has points along the way, although it has no beginning or end like time.

          we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

          dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.
          Why is God controling actions a pointless thing, when He does it for Hios glory and the good of His people?

          we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.
          God thinks in before and after mode too! If God only knew what choice we would make, He didn't predestine anyone.....no need to! They destined themselves!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
            True - but the word predestined conveys clearly that God destined us to be His people before time began - eternity is linear, like time - it has points along the way, although it has no beginning or end like time.



            Why is God controling actions a pointless thing, when He does it for Hios glory and the good of His people?



            God thinks in before and after mode too! If God only knew what choice we would make, He didn't predestine anyone.....no need to! They destined themselves!
            if god is controlling our actions then he is forcing us to sin. god wouldnt do that we are made in his image not made as slaves. he did not make people and say i will make these to commit sin, he gave us the option to sin and knew what we would choose before we did yet its still our choice, then out of those he chose who he would, that is how they are predestined

            and sorry but god doesnt think in before or after, he only applys before and after to us, he knows how it all plays out. eternity in gods terms is not a timeline, he made time hes not subject to it, thats why no before or after, we think in terms of time because we are subject to it. god is not resting in time time is resting in god.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by fewarechosen View Post
              time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.

              we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

              dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.

              we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.
              Originally posted by fewarechosen View Post
              if god is controlling our actions then he is forcing us to sin. god wouldnt do that we are made in his image not made as slaves. he did not make people and say i will make these to commit sin, he gave us the option to sin and knew what we would choose before we did yet its still our choice, then out of those he chose who he would, that is how they are predestined

              and sorry but god doesnt think in before or after, he only applys before and after to us, he knows how it all plays out. eternity in gods terms is not a timeline, he made time hes not subject to it, thats why no before or after, we think in terms of time because we are subject to it. god is not resting in time time is resting in god.
              This is in the ball park of how I feel.

              It seems to me predestined in it's modern definition changes what was originally meant . . . (whatever that may be.)

              I feel God knows our choices, therefore our lives are destined to be a certain way, but we still choose that destiny. It's simply that God knows the future, but He Himself did not choose our paths for us. He simply knows what path we will take.

              Hope that makes sense . . . sure doesn't to me
              Laughing at the world
              Watching it bend
              Enjoying the show
              Just waiting for the end

              Not worried a bit
              as I walk through the mist
              By God I will sit
              And watch the world twist

              In Him I will trust
              And only Him I will fear
              When the world turns to dust
              I know He'll be near

              Comment


              • #8
                Ephesians 1:3-6

                Redemption in Christ

                3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


                Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
                Verse 5
                Having foreordained us into adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


                Under Eph. 1:4, it was noted that the phrase "in love" may logically be referred to this verse also, as in the RSV. The KJV, English Revised Version (1885), and RSV use three different words for the action described in this verse, as follows:

                "He predestinated us ..." (KJV).

                "Having foreordained us ..." (English Revised Version)

                "He destined us in love to be his sons through Christ" (RSV)

                Theologians have tried for ages to make something hard out of predestination; but the meaning is not difficult. God designed the whole creation to accomplish the fulfillment of the plan which existed before creation. That is a simple definition of it. It applies to human beings, planets, galaxies, everything God ever made. Regarding people, God's purpose in creating man was that he might become a Son of God through Jesus Christ. That is the destiny God intended for every man ever born on earth. Stars and galaxies may not oppose or thwart their intended destiny; but with people, there is another factor, the freedom of the human will, enabling people to hinder or even prevent the fulfillment of God's purposes in their lives. For further study of this, see my Commentary on Romans, Rom. 8:29.

                The subjects related to this verse are commented upon much more extensively in Romans than will be necessary here; but one primary truth should be reiterated, namely that God in designing the creation of man with the express purpose of making people his sons through Christ would most certainly not have created people in such a manner that the highest happiness of them could be achieved in the service of Satan rather than in the service of himself!

                ****************************
                In Adam Clark's bible commentary he says this is meant for the Gentiles..while the Jews were called first, God knew they would reject Jesus (not all but many) and we would be called next..also. In other words it was meant to be the Gentiles would be called.

                http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/vi...ph&chapter=001
                Verse 5. Having predestinated us
                προορισας. As the doctrine of eternal predestination has produced much controversy in the Christian world, it may be necessary to examine the meaning of the term, that those who do use it may employ it according to the sense it has in the oracles of God.

                The verb προοπζω, from προ, before, and οριζω, I define, finish, bound, or terminate, whence ορος, a boundary or limit, signifies to define beforehand, and circumscribe by certain bounds or limits; and is originally a geographical term, but applied also to any thing concluded, or determined, or demonstrated.

                Here the word is used to point out God's fixed purpose or predetermination to bestow on the Gentiles the blessing of the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, which adoption had been before granted to the Jewish people; and without circumcision, or any other Mosaic rite, to admit the Gentiles to all the privileges of his Church and people. And the apostle marks that all this was fore-determined by God, as he had fore-determined the bounds and precincts of the land which he gave them according to the promise made to their fathers; that the Jews had no reason to complain, for God had formed this purpose before he had given the law, or called them out of Egypt; (for it was before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4 and that, therefore, the conduct of God in calling the Gentiles now-bringing them into his Church, and conferring on them the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, was in pursuance of his original design; and, if he did not do so, his eternal purposes could not be fulfilled; and that, as the Jews were taken to be his peculiar people, not because they had any goodness or merit in themselves; so the Gentiles were called, (more at the link)
                ************************************************** *****
                This whole being chosen has been seen in the wrong light I think..I mean look at it this way...you aren't a Christian..so then what? you aren't predestined? But then later you become a Christian..so then you are suddenly predestined? I am not good at explaining this that is why I used these two bible commentaries and I hope they are seriously considered. The bible tells us when Jesus was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Him. It doesn't say just some..or a few..but all.

                God bless
                "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by White Spider View Post
                  Predestined or Not?

                  I know this is a confusing circular argument, but bare with me.


                  Are our lives predestined by God since before time or were we created and given the ability to choose our own paths?

                  Do we create our own destiny, or do we have a chosen destiny.

                  I'll start with this and let you all give me some feed back before I get into some of the more controversial issues of this topic.
                  I think anyone who has lived enough years, or had enough experiences maybe I should say, of making choices without having first sought God's will, can tell you, we make our own choices. And we are much wiser for having sought God's will before as opposed to after.

                  Think about it, how many wrong decisions have you made, not you personally here but you know what I mean, all of us. God tells us in the Bible that the Holy Spirit will convict of sin, then of course hopefully the man will repent. There is no way we could or would choose God because we are fallen creatures, and He is righteous, holy. Something that without the Holy Spirits conviction upon our hearts we would just skip marrily along our way thinking how wonderful we are. We often need a knock on the knoggin to get our attention to the real reality of things. And God loves us enough to conk us one when we need it.


                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                    Amen! But on the other hand, Scripture teaches that we are all responsible beings and that no one can shake their fist at God on the last day and say "It's because of YOU I'm in Hell! Because YOU didn't predestine me!"

                    Every individual in hell is there by their own choosing.
                    Every individual in heaven is there by God's choosing - and their own!
                    That's what I love about Calvin. He openly admits that God has elected people to salvation, yet somehow there is a 'choice' involved (if it can be called that). In other words, though we are predestined, we still choose Him (though we cannot help but to choose Him since grace is irresistible).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                      That's what I love about Calvin. He openly admits that God has elected people to salvation, yet somehow there is a 'choice' involved (if it can be called that). In other words, though we are predestined, we still choose Him (though we cannot help but to choose Him since grace is irresistible).
                      I agree that grace is irresistible, but yet how many people stomp all all over it.


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                      • #12
                        our choice is involved also.

                        christ died for all of mankind not just his chosen

                        look at this scripture

                        9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                        here is our choice in a nutshell, god is not willing that any should perish. some wording makes it sound like god created a bunch of people and then destined some to hell and others to life, thats not the case.

                        he wants all to come to repentance - but hes not forcing anyone.

                        he knows your choices before you made them, out of that he chose who he would, for whatever reason he wanted, then set them in a place where he wanted, giving them what he wanted.

                        if we had no choice - then dont you think if god was not willing that any should perish then that would be the case and none would be lost ?

                        he gave us free will, he gave us a choice, but understand he knows what we choose before we do.

                        we see time like this

                        -----------------------------------

                        now take that time line and turn it left to right 90 degrees on the horizontal plane

                        god sees time like this . hes looking down the whole thing at once.

                        he is not waiting for things to unfold, inside him all has unfolded we just havent got to that point yet, thats why he can say this is gonna happen in the future, cause he knows. hes not subject to time hes not waiting for anything to happen - we are

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                        • #13
                          It seems most of us agree on the matter that we are not "predestined" in the sense God makes our choices for us, nor does he choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell. He simply knows our paths as He is the All-Knowing-God.

                          He allows us the choice, and gives us help along the way, a "conk".

                          But we are in full control of our own destinies and maintain responsibility for our actions as they are fully our own actions.

                          He chose us to be sons of God through Christ in the sense a Christian parent would choose their children to follow in Christ, but that does not mean we will be sons of God as it does not mean the children will be Christians.

                          And if you spin around 3 times really fast and read that backwards, it might make more sense . . .
                          Laughing at the world
                          Watching it bend
                          Enjoying the show
                          Just waiting for the end

                          Not worried a bit
                          as I walk through the mist
                          By God I will sit
                          And watch the world twist

                          In Him I will trust
                          And only Him I will fear
                          When the world turns to dust
                          I know He'll be near

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by White Spider View Post
                            It seems most of us agree on the matter that we are not "predestined" in the sense God makes our choices for us, nor does he choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell. He simply knows our paths as He is the All-Knowing-God.

                            He allows us the choice, and gives us help along the way, a "conk".

                            But we are in full control of our own destinies and maintain responsibility for our actions as they are fully our own actions.

                            He chose us to be sons of God through Christ in the sense a Christian parent would choose their children to follow in Christ, but that does not mean we will be sons of God as it does not mean the children will be Christians.

                            And if you spin around 3 times really fast and read that backwards, it might make more sense . . .
                            I actually do believe that it is God that predestines us, yet we do somehow have a role in it. I also do not believe we are in control of our own destinies, but instead God will guide His elect to His ultimate end - imagine bowling with bumpers; we have some room to move, but He will put us back on track.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As i specified in the other thread, we tread dangerous ground when we take any kind of authority from God and claim it as our own. God does indeed exist outside of time, but i think relegating Him to only 'knowing our choices' is a belittling take on the whole scope of what God is. Also, to use the age old excuse of liberality to claim that we have somehow misunderstood the Word because modern meanings for words changes is a little intellectually dishonest to say the least.

                              We in our perspective do indeed have some level of choice... but in the scheme of things it is God and only God that elects and saves. In our fallen state do you think we are in any way capable of reaching out and grasping the hand of God unless he first enables us to do so?

                              This thread will no doubt shed little light in solving this age old question. What seems to be two completely opposing scriptorial claims live in harmony together within scriptures pages. Perhaps this (like with the incomprehensibility of the Trinity) only shows to highlight the limitations of logic and reason when placed against the perfectly unpredictable variable that is God.
                              "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
                              -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                              "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

                              Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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