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  • Discussion How does mid or post-trib disprove pre-trib?

    Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

    It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

    I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid
    -trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

    Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot
    to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.
    Shalom


    sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  • #2
    Actually the way the Bible seems to read to me sets pre, mid, and post aside.

    With the resurrection/rapture happening sometime during the "Time of Jacobs trouble". I believe Jacobs trouble to be the second half of the 70th week.

    This scripture is something I would like commentary on because I have not seen or heard, not that anyone hasn't, I don't read much commentary, anyone using it in a resurrection sense. But it states, in its' prophetic language, a picture of the future departing to be with the Saviour.

    Micah 7:8-10

    Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD , because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is my enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said to me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as mire of the streets.

    The statement "he will bring me forth" is the word yatsa, strong's #3318. Same word used for Rahab in Joshua 6:18.

    There is typology such as ' if I shall fall, I will arise" resurrection, and others you can enjoy, but I'm interested more in what you all may think of this.

    So I hope this post falls in the guidelines to disprove but the hitch is that I don't follow any of them. And by the way I don't know much about pre-wrath so that isn't where I'm coming from. As I have said this seems to me a simple thing. It's just how this event reads to me.

    I put this scripture up to start with because it's different and fits with this because he speaks of darkness, not in a maybe sense but in the sense of when. The darkness we all experience at some point and the future prophetic time of darkness.

    In Peace,

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by talmidim View Post
      Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

      It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

      I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid
      -trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

      Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot
      to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.
      I believe the first question is this:

      Will there be one or more raptures? If multiple raptures, then we should have some fruitful discussion.

      However, if there is one rapture (which I personally believe), then only one position can be correct, and the other two cannot be correct. So yes, belief in one means it is not possible for another one to be correct.

      If I may ask, do you believe scripture shows us there is one or more than one "rapture"?

      Be Blessed!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by talmidim View Post
        Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

        It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

        I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

        Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.
        Oh boy, here we go again..........
        ----------------------------------------------
        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

        Comment


        • #5
          1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

          one
          one resurrection of the just
          after that no believers will ever die again

          death is swallowed up in victory

          only wicked people will yet die
          http://prophecyinsights.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Just put Hebrews 9:28 and Rev. 19:1 together.
            Jesus appears at the time of salvation.

            The wicked city that did corrupt the earth is avenged.
            Look at Rev. 19:2

            It is impossible for there to be a pre-rib rapture.
            The last martyr for Jesus will die before He returns.
            http://prophecyinsights.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by carboy View Post
              Actually the way the Bible seems to read to me sets pre, mid, and post aside.

              With the resurrection/rapture happening sometime during the "Time of Jacobs trouble". I believe Jacobs trouble to be the second half of the 70th week.

              This scripture is something I would like commentary on because I have not seen or heard, not that anyone hasn't, I don't read much commentary, anyone using it in a resurrection sense. But it states, in its' prophetic language, a picture of the future departing to be with the Saviour.

              Micah 7:8-10

              Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD , because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is my enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said to me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as mire of the streets.

              The statement "he will bring me forth" is the word yatsa, strong's #3318. Same word used for Rahab in Joshua 6:18.

              There is typology such as ' if I shall fall, I will arise" resurrection, and others you can enjoy, but I'm interested more in what you all may think of this.

              So I hope this post falls in the guidelines to disprove but the hitch is that I don't follow any of them. And by the way I don't know much about pre-wrath so that isn't where I'm coming from. As I have said this seems to me a simple thing. It's just how this event reads to me.

              I put this scripture up to start with because it's different and fits with this because he speaks of darkness, not in a maybe sense but in the sense of when. The darkness we all experience at some point and the future prophetic time of darkness.

              In Peace,
              Hey Carboy,

              Thanks for your contribution. While this is an interesting thought, how does it address the OP? If I am missing your point, please clarify, OK? And please read my responses below to fully understand what I am asking, OK? Thanks...

              Originally posted by obeytheword View Post
              I believe the first question is this:

              Will there be one or more raptures? If multiple raptures, then we should have some fruitful discussion.

              However, if there is one rapture (which I personally believe), then only one position can be correct, and the other two cannot be correct. So yes, belief in one means it is not possible for another one to be correct.

              If I may ask, do you believe scripture shows us there is one or more than one "rapture"?

              Be Blessed!
              Hi Obeytheword,

              Your comments are very much on point. And I too anticipate a fruitful discussion. But I want to establish the meat of this thread. Please read next entry for a fuller explanation. Thanks!


              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
              Oh boy, here we go again..........
              Hello Literalist-Luke,

              I invite you to give up on giving up. There have been many an argument based on this view disproves that view. I want solid scriptural reasons for those positions. And that doesn't happen. It just seems to be assumed that it is a given. And if there are those that base their argument on the concept that there can only be one rapture, then I would like to know their reason for that too.

              I really do not want this to be the typical, 'I'm right and you are wrong' rapture thread. I really want to know the reasons that people are so ADAMANT about something that is not that clearly spelled out in scripture. And I would like your to help in understanding.

              Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
              1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

              one
              one resurrection of the just
              after that no believers will ever die again

              death is swallowed up in victory

              only wicked people will yet die

              Just put Hebrews 9:28 and Rev. 19:1 together.
              Jesus appears at the time of salvation.

              The wicked city that did corrupt the earth is avenged.
              Look at Rev. 19:2

              It is impossible for there to be a pre-rib rapture.
              The last martyr for Jesus will die before He returns.
              Peace to you vinsight4u8,

              Thank you too, for your contribution. And I would like to use your posts as an example of what I am asking. You said,
              1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

              Well this is true, but only so far as those that are 'dead in Christ' and we might also presume those that are 'alive in Christ' too. Why? Because Paul was addressing a very specific group of people. But neither Paul nor your quote addresses all that there are to be resurrected.

              Clearly there were some righteous of all those that came before. And there will be some who will embrace His righteousness later. These are not discussed in your quote, so they are therefore unaccounted for in your explanation. See what I mean?

              Thanks to all for your contributions. I hope this clarifies the reason for this thread. And I hope you will understand how it differs from other 'rapture' threads.

              In His Love,
              Phillip
              Shalom


              sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi talmidim,

                Yes it's ok.

                After posting I realized it wasn't in line with the OP.

                I'm not pre-post or mid, unless of course the resurrection does come in an order of multiples, which I have my doubts about, then I will be one of them. Most likely sometime during because that is how the Bible reads to me when I see scripture like the section I presented.

                Also I apologize for not presenting an idea clearly. Maybe with more posts and prayer my thoughts will line more sensibly with the written word.

                My beginning attempt was to disprove a label such as pre, mid or post with the use of a prophecy that speaks of a rapture. Paul did not give forth new revelation, but new revelation on things already written. The rapture is in the old. I believe we also will have more or new revelation on apocalyptic
                scripture as that day gets closer, on things already written. Daniel was told "seal these things up until the time of the end".

                Our understanding will increase.

                I have shown this scripture to a few people with no response. So maybe it's just me and it's nothing. I do realize this is not the right thread to ask for input on something I've found. So it's cool and I'll stay tuned to the progression of the discussion.

                In Peace

                Comment


                • #9
                  As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

                  Enoch was raptured out.
                  Elijah was raptured out.
                  When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

                  I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.
                  Matt 9:13
                  13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                  NASU

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

                    Enoch was raptured out.
                    Elijah was raptured out.
                    When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

                    I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.
                    Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                      Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.
                      Add to that when the church is raptured out...

                      I bet all in all we can come up with 7. Kahtar has posted on it somewhere. I think he's right about it too.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by talmidim View Post
                        Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

                        It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

                        I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

                        Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.
                        I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Pre...Mid...Post...That is the question!

                          In my studies I have found evidence of Pre...
                          In my studies I have found evidence of Mid...
                          In my studies I have not found evidence of Post...

                          So to categorize myself it would be "anything but Post".

                          To your question...yes if one believes in Post then it would have to disprove Pre or Mid.

                          On the other hand one could believe in Pre or Mid with a belief of multiple raptures and that could include a Post.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by carboy View Post
                            Hi talmidim,

                            Yes it's ok.

                            After posting I realized it wasn't in line with the OP.

                            I'm not pre-post or mid, unless of course the resurrection does come in an order of multiples, which I have my doubts about, then I will be one of them. Most likely sometime during because that is how the Bible reads to me when I see scripture like the section I presented.

                            Also I apologize for not presenting an idea clearly. Maybe with more posts and prayer my thoughts will line more sensibly with the written word.

                            My beginning attempt was to disprove a label such as pre, mid or post with the use of a prophecy that speaks of a rapture. Paul did not give forth new revelation, but new revelation on things already written. The rapture is in the old. I believe we also will have more or new revelation on apocalyptic
                            scripture as that day gets closer, on things already written. Daniel was told "seal these things up until the time of the end".

                            Our understanding will increase.

                            I have shown this scripture to a few people with no response. So maybe it's just me and it's nothing. I do realize this is not the right thread to ask for input on something I've found. So it's cool and I'll stay tuned to the progression of the discussion.

                            In Peace
                            No apology necessary my friend. And don't me so quick to dismiss your contribution. I just want to discuss the 'proof' that people offer that one view disproves another first. Then we might be better prepared to discuss alternative views. Again, thank you for your input.

                            In His Love,
                            Phillip
                            Shalom


                            sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

                              Enoch was raptured out.
                              Elijah was raptured out.
                              When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

                              I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

                              Add to that when the church is raptured out...

                              I bet all in all we can come up with 7. Kahtar has posted on it somewhere. I think he's right about it too.
                              Hey Brother Mark!

                              Always a pleasure. So forgive me if I disagree. Your argument about Enoch and Elijah has merit, though some might characterize them as foreshadowings of the promise of 1 Thes. The others you describe would more accurately characterized as the firstfruit of a resurrection, not a 'rapture', per se. Because I am pretty sure you don't have any scriptural accounts of living Judeans ascending at that time. I would have remembered. Nor can they be characterized as 'dead in Christ' for we do not know to what Covenant they belonged (though the Mosaic seems likely, that too could be debated).

                              I am sure your contribution will push forward the discussion, but I wanted to clarify the context of these observations first. Feel free to disagree. I certainly haven't memorized all of scripture and I always learn something in my exchanges with you.

                              Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                              Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.
                              Hi 2 Peter 2:20, and welcome aboard. I was wondering if you think that the Two Witnesses also constitute a resurrection as opposed to a 'rapture' too? I think we have to be careful how we categorize these events because there seems to be an important difference that I want to discuss later.

                              Originally posted by cwb View Post
                              I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?
                              Hi cwb,

                              I agree that I cannot scripture that pins our understanding to the concept of one and only one rapture. And it should be noted again that I view raptures and resurrections with certain distinction. Please read on for my views on multiple raptures as opposed to
                              multiple resurrections.
                              Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                              Pre...Mid...Post...That is the question!

                              In my studies I have found evidence of Pre...
                              In my studies I have found evidence of Mid...
                              In my studies I have not found evidence of Post...

                              So to categorize myself it would be "anything but Post".

                              To your question...yes if one believes in Post then it would have to disprove Pre or Mid.

                              On the other hand one could believe in Pre or Mid with a belief of multiple raptures and that could include a Post.
                              Hi again 2P2,

                              You have a more open view of things than most and that sets you apart. But you still seem to be ready to eliminate a view without testing the question offered in the OP.

                              I saved this post for last for what I consider, a good reason. I have investigated this possibility of multiple raptures and resurrections. And lately my understanding of the matter has changed somewhat. So later on, I would like to discuss the possibilities and circumstances that might better explain these concepts. But not right now.

                              I still haven't seen any of the reasons why so many people ADAMANTLY insist that one view disproves another.
                              vinsight4u8 has been the only person so far, willing to post scripture in favor of their view and subject it to scrutiny. It is one thing to profess a 'proof' to which everyone seems to agree. It is quite another to stop taking it for granted and honestly dissect it in the full view of others.

                              I would like to understand this loyal adherence to this belief. Does one view of the rapture actually disprove the others? The reason that this is important to me is simple. It is foundational to most rapture theories.

                              In His Love,
                              Phillip
                              Shalom


                              sigpicWhile scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.

                              Comment

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