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  • Urban Missionary/ PP Debate Peanut Gallery

    Anyone who wishes to make comments about the debate please do so in this thread.
    I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
    Have you laid your burdens down?


  • #2
    I'll be BBQing behind the bleachers as I listen to the discussion
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
      I'll be BBQing behind the bleachers as I listen to the discussion
      I'll be whipping up some of PP's death dogs if anyone is interested.

      Only there will be NO mustard. Within a 2 mile radius.


      I've got my giant foam finger ready!
      My Blog

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
        I'll be whipping up some of PP's death dogs if anyone is interested.

        Only there will be NO mustard. Within a 2 mile radius.


        I've got my giant foam finger ready!
        Oh don't that sound so goooood!!!


        Visit our new website
        ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

        A.W. Tozer said,
        "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

        GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

        Comment


        • #5
          Is that BBQ lexington style???
          For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

          If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

          Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
            I've got my giant foam finger ready!
            Just remember to use the one with the INDEX finger.

            Comment


            • #7
              I just clicked the "Add Subscription" to the debate thread and I see that it was the 380th thread that I'm subscribed to... I REALLY need to do some clean up
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              Comment


              • #8
                How many times have I seen the "conditional" used as a defense of NOSAS?

                Ohh ... about a billion. 'specially when Ken is posting

                Project Peter quotes Jesus: "you are my friends IF you do what I command you."

                He takes it to mean that Jesus is giving a conditional clause to His gift which He is purchasing for His elect. If one does NOT do what Christ commands, he is not Christ's friend, having once BEEN His friend. And thus, will having once been alive, be dead again (and summarily need to be re-born-again)

                I'd like to put another perspective on it by use of an analogy.

                "You are behind the wheel of the car IF you are driving it."

                Simple statement. What does it mean? Does it mean you MUST drive the car in order to be behind the wheel? Or does it mean that the PROOF of you being behind the wheel is the fact that it is moving down the road?

                Just another perspective to show that the conditional clause shown here does not necessarily mean salvation is threatened if one does not perform accordingly. The statement could very likely mean that "this is how you will know who follows me .. by the ones who keep my commands"

                The question is ... who keeps God's commands to the degree that He demands? Paul says none but Christ.

                Dang ... guess nobody is truly a friend of Christ. Thank God for His mercy and His befriending of us even while we were His enemies! Oh, how much more now that we are His adopted children will He protect us! (paraphrase from Romans 5.10, which says that once we are reconciled by Christ's death, we are saved [the idea being continually] by Christ's life, not our own performance)

                Two disclaimers:

                1. Look at my sig. It explains that one who believes their own performances will preserve them is setting up themselves as a false savior.

                2. I do NOT believe in antinomianism. I fully agree with PP's sig as well. Obedience is falling away from the "visible" church to the point that many believe a "true" Christian can lose salvation. Enter in 1 John 2.19
                If we doubt or do not believe that God is gracious to us and is pleased with us, or if we presumptuously expect to please Him only through and after our works, then it is all pure deception, outwardly honoring God, but inwardly setting up self as a false [savior].... (Part X. XI) Excerpts from Martin Luther, Treatise Concerning Good Works (1520).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by humbled View Post
                  How many times have I seen the "conditional" used as a defense of NOSAS?

                  Ohh ... about a billion. 'specially when Ken is posting

                  Project Peter quotes Jesus: "you are my friends IF you do what I command you."

                  He takes it to mean that Jesus is giving a conditional clause to His gift which He is purchasing for His elect. If one does NOT do what Christ commands, he is not Christ's friend, having once BEEN His friend. And thus, will having once been alive, be dead again (and summarily need to be re-born-again)

                  I'd like to put another perspective on it by use of an analogy.

                  "You are behind the wheel of the car IF you are driving it."

                  Simple statement. What does it mean? Does it mean you MUST drive the car in order to be behind the wheel? Or does it mean that the PROOF of you being behind the wheel is the fact that it is moving down the road?

                  Just another perspective to show that the conditional clause shown here does not necessarily mean salvation is threatened if one does not perform accordingly. The statement could very likely mean that "this is how you will know who follows me .. by the ones who keep my commands"

                  The question is ... who keeps God's commands to the degree that He demands? Paul says none but Christ.

                  Dang ... guess nobody is truly a friend of Christ. Thank God for His mercy and His befriending of us even while we were His enemies! Oh, how much more now that we are His adopted children will He protect us! (paraphrase from Romans 5.10, which says that once we are reconciled by Christ's death, we are saved [the idea being continually] by Christ's life, not our own performance)

                  Two disclaimers:

                  1. Look at my sig. It explains that one who believes their own performances will preserve them is setting up themselves as a false savior.

                  2. I do NOT believe in antinomianism. I fully agree with PP's sig as well. Obedience is falling away from the "visible" church to the point that many believe a "true" Christian can lose salvation. Enter in 1 John 2.19
                  And how many times have we seen the "unconditional" used in defense of OSAS??

                  Ken lays it out there the way it is. Like it or not there are conditional statements made throughout the Bible. Ken also uses the "IF you abide (remain) in Me" scripture from John 15. So in your understanding what happens IF you don't abide (remain) in Him? I'll give you a clue the answer is in...verse 6.

                  6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Humbled, may I ask what is the definition of apostasy?
                    For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

                    If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

                    Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                      And how many times have we seen the "unconditional" used in defense of OSAS??

                      Ken lays it out there the way it is. Like it or not there are conditional statements made throughout the Bible. Ken also uses the "IF you abide (remain) in Me" scripture from John 15. So in your understanding what happens IF you don't abide (remain) in Him? I'll give you a clue the answer is in...verse 6.

                      6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
                      Amen !

                      To be one of those branches means you were once saved and now are not anymore and thus removed.

                      Branches will get removed as we grow so we can be more useful to God but if all branches are removed... what then?
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                        And how many times have we seen the "unconditional" used in defense of OSAS??

                        Ken lays it out there the way it is. Like it or not there are conditional statements made throughout the Bible. Ken also uses the "IF you abide (remain) in Me" scripture from John 15. So in your understanding what happens IF you don't abide (remain) in Him? I'll give you a clue the answer is in...verse 6.

                        6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
                        1 John 2.19
                        ...........

                        Friend, if salvation is conditional, it is simply a salvation by works. Christ is superfluous.
                        If we doubt or do not believe that God is gracious to us and is pleased with us, or if we presumptuously expect to please Him only through and after our works, then it is all pure deception, outwardly honoring God, but inwardly setting up self as a false [savior].... (Part X. XI) Excerpts from Martin Luther, Treatise Concerning Good Works (1520).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Urban Missionary View Post
                          Humbled, may I ask what is the definition of apostasy?
                          Wikipedia: Apostasy is the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.


                          It is one who abandons Christianity. Scripture makes it clear that they abandon THE faith ...not THEIR faith.

                          I believe the apostasy is when the tares are sifted out of the visible church. The pretenders.
                          If we doubt or do not believe that God is gracious to us and is pleased with us, or if we presumptuously expect to please Him only through and after our works, then it is all pure deception, outwardly honoring God, but inwardly setting up self as a false [savior].... (Part X. XI) Excerpts from Martin Luther, Treatise Concerning Good Works (1520).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I noticed you left off this part...

                            From Wiki:
                            Apostasy in Christianity

                            From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                            Christian apostates are previously Christian individuals who have renounced Christianity.
                            For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

                            If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

                            Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by humbled View Post
                              1 John 2.19
                              ...........

                              Friend, if salvation is conditional, it is simply a salvation by works. Christ is superfluous.
                              I posted a little more so you could get the context of the passage...

                              18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

                              20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

                              How were they to know that it was the last hour? By the antichrists coming.

                              Who was John speaking of? Antichrists

                              And what were these antichrists doing? Denying that Jesus was the Christ...verse 22

                              Don't you see that John was countering false teachers that were teaching another gospel which was no gospel at all...mainly that Jesus was not the Christ.

                              You are quick to quote verse 19 but fail to continue to read to verse 24. And there it is again "IF it remains".

                              If what remains? What they had heard from the beginning...that Jesus was the Christ.

                              He was warning them not to exchange what they had heard and believed in for a lie...a false gospel. He was warning them of the act of apostasy.

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