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Where In The Law Is Our Faith?

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  • Where In The Law Is Our Faith?

    Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

    Acts 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
    live in them.

    Firstfruits

  • #2
    I guess I am not exactly sure what your question is. I will throw this out there and see if any of this sticks.

    Both believing and faith are translated from the one Greek word pistis. What is used where is determined as you read the context.
    We know that in OT believers could believe God………….. but there was no faith {per se} in the OT.
    Galatians 3:23 But beforefaith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    If there was a time when pistis {faith or believing} was not available……….. and we know that believing was available throughout the OT, it has to be faith ……specifically “the faith of Jesus Christ” which was not available.

    If this is close to what your question was…. let me know ……if not ….C’est la vie
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Bless
    azheis

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by azheis View Post
      I guess I am not exactly sure what your question is. I will throw this out there and see if any of this sticks.

      Both believing and faith are translated from the one Greek word pistis. What is used where is determined as you read the context.
      We know that in OT believers could believe God………….. but there was no faith {per se} in the OT.
      Galatians 3:23 But beforefaith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

      If there was a time when pistis {faith or believing} was not available……….. and we know that believing was available throughout the OT, it has to be faith ……specifically “the faith of Jesus Christ” which was not available.

      If this is close to what your question was…. let me know ……if not ….C’est la vie
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Bless
      azheis
      The disciples preached/taught about Jesus from the law and the prophets, the law of commandments is also taught from the law and the prophets.Even though they are both from the same scriptures only by putting our faith in Jesus is there justification, so where in the law is our faith?

      Firstfruits

      Comment


      • #4
        The law is somewhat contrary to faith. They are two totally different ideas. Paul contrasts the law and faith frequently...

        Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

        Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

        Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

        Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

        Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

        Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
        For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

        If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

        Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

        Comment


        • #5
          well to obey the law is one thing... to boast in the law is totally different... Paul himself was a man who walked blameless... although he kept the law his boast was not in it... because he himself knew that he would not be able to keep the law without the grace of God on him

          it's grace that allows us to do anything by the law, and when we disobey that law we reject grace...

          there are certain principles that the law has... for example... you drive over the speed limit, you will meet the law the hard way... that's a fact of life... you place yourself outside the spirit of Grace that allows you to obey the law, you will meet the consequences of the law... so when God says don't do this because this will happen, a good idea would be not to do it because he's God he doesn't change and the consequence will happen when you disobey the commandment.... similar to the law of gravity... you walk off a cliff, you will fall...
          The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by timmyb View Post
            well to obey the law is one thing... to boast in the law is totally different... Paul himself was a man who walked blameless... although he kept the law his boast was not in it... because he himself knew that he would not be able to keep the law without the grace of God on him
            Not true...Act 18:12-13 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."
            For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

            If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

            Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
              Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

              Acts 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

              Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

              Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
              live in them.

              Firstfruits

              The law drives us to the cross. It exposes our inability to live a life pleasing to God, exposes our sin nature of the flesh which keeps us alienated from salvation. The law isn't our faith, but it guides us to it. Without the law, the abundance of grace that is available to us cannot be realized.
              Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
              Not second or third, but first.
              Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
              when He is the source of all hope,
              when His love is received and freely given,
              holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
              will all other things be added unto to you.

              Comment


              • #8
                How does the following compare with the understanding that Jesus was sent for the whole world, and the law is not for all?

                Concerning Jesus
                Lk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

                Lk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

                Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

                Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

                Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

                Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

                Is 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

                Is 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

                Is 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


                Concerning the law
                Rom 3:20 Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.

                Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

                Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

                Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

                Firstfruits

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                  How does the following compare with the understanding that Jesus was sent for the whole world, and the law is not for all?

                  Concerning the law
                  Rom 3:20 Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.
                  Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
                  Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

                  Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

                  Firstfruits
                  The law - the Torah is not for all, it is only for the Jews. However, one of Paul's central arguments of Romans is that, from the very beginning, the covenant promises were not exclusive to the Jews.

                  I believe that the Torah was given to Israel with a "dark" intent - to actually make her more sinful:

                  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase

                  Why would God do this? Because, I suggest, He is engaged in a complex plan to defeat sin specifically by "luring" into national Israel and then focussing it and concentrating it (sin) in the flesh of Israel's representative Messiah, and then condemning it.

                  God has "tricked" sin into one place - the flesh of Jesus. Once "cornered" in this way, God then condemns sin.

                  So Torah was part of this plan - by giving it to Israel, the process of luring sin into one place was initiated.

                  So I see perfect harmony between the "Israel-specificity" of Torah and the "non Israel-specificity" of the covenant blessings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

                    The Law was never about Justification. The Law is about obedience. The Law or Torah (instruction in Hebrew) does not contrast faith, it complements our faith as seen clearly in Romans 4:11:

                    And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

                    Abraham found righteousness by his faith while uncircumsized, yet he then became circumsized as a "seal of the righeousness of faith." Clearly a wonderful sign how the law compliments our faith.

                    Paul never taught against the Words of YHVH. Paul spoke against the laws of the Pharisees wich eventually turned into the Talmud of Rabbinic Judaism.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Emanate View Post
                      Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

                      Paul never taught against the Words of YHVH. Paul spoke against the laws of the Pharisees wich eventually turned into the Talmud of Rabbinic Judaism.
                      Are you claiming that Torah is still in force?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Urban Missionary View Post
                        Not true...Act 18:12-13 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."
                        that was their accusation... but Paul's response in one of his trials was that he has walked blameless... Jesus was contrary to Pharisaical law... that was the law that Paul was violating, not the law of God
                        The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by timmyb View Post
                          that was their accusation... but Paul's response in one of his trials was that he has walked blameless... Jesus was contrary to Pharisaical law... that was the law that Paul was violating, not the law of God
                          Are you sure? My reading of Paul is that he considers the regulations of Torah to have ceased being in effect. I will not argue why I think this is is so in the present post. However, if Paul did believe Torah as a set of rules and prescriptive behaviours has been retired, it would make perfect sense for people to see him as advocating the abandonment of Torah.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
                            The law drives us to the cross. It exposes our inability to live a life pleasing to God, exposes our sin nature of the flesh which keeps us alienated from salvation. The law isn't our faith, but it guides us to it. Without the law, the abundance of grace that is available to us cannot be realized.
                            Is it that which is written in the law/scriptures that leads us to the cross, as it is through the scriptures we have received the promise of Jesus and the cross?

                            Firstfruits

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by drew View Post
                              The law - the Torah is not for all, it is only for the Jews. However, one of Paul's central arguments of Romans is that, from the very beginning, the covenant promises were not exclusive to the Jews.

                              I believe that the Torah was given to Israel with a "dark" intent - to actually make her more sinful:

                              The Law came in so that the transgression would increase

                              Why would God do this? Because, I suggest, He is engaged in a complex plan to defeat sin specifically by "luring" into national Israel and then focussing it and concentrating it (sin) in the flesh of Israel's representative Messiah, and then condemning it.

                              God has "tricked" sin into one place - the flesh of Jesus. Once "cornered" in this way, God then condemns sin.

                              So Torah was part of this plan - by giving it to Israel, the process of luring sin into one place was initiated.

                              So I see perfect harmony between the "Israel-specificity" of Torah and the "non Israel-specificity" of the covenant blessings.
                              The law speaks of Jesus and it also speaks of the law of commandments, but it spoke of christ in the law before the law of commandments were given.

                              If they had believed what was written in the law they would have believed Jesus and he would not have been killed and the law would not have been fulfilled.

                              Jn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

                              Firstfruits

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